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Discovering the "End" in "Extend & Pretend"



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October 1943. Washington, D.C. "Boys watching the Woodrow Wilson high school cadets." Photo by Esther Bubley, Office of War Information.

There was a rumor over the weekend that the Troika may be willing to relax the terms of the dreaded memorandum for the Greek government if it formed a "pro-European" coalition government and avoided new elections. This rumor is ridiculous on both fronts - 1) the Troika and Germany would NEVER make such a concession for fear that every single penny pledged to peripheral nations would become contingent on the outcome of national elections and, essentially, a gift with no conditions attached (something that would pit the German people against their crony, bankster-run government once and for all), and 2) the left-wing Syriza party in Greece would NEVER commit itself to the Euro while it continues to gain popularity each day before the new elections.

Last year or the year before, such extend & pretend tactics may have actually worked. The Eurozone was still officially out of recession, the people were relatively docile and unaware of how bad their economic situation could get and everyone still had a modicum of faith in the conventional wisdom that bailouts and austerity measures, drawn out over time, could work. Back then, the "fringe" anti-establishment political parties in Europe still had a steep hill to climb before they could credibly threaten those holding the reigns of power. Now, not so much. The tide of popular resistance seems to have turned much too fast for even the most powerful among us.

These elections in Europe are no joke. The Eurocrats will bring everything they can muster to co-opt the platforms of those who have emerged with support and/or maneuver around the snowballing anti-austerity momentum, but it should be painfully clear by now that some things are simply outside of their control. The party leaders of Syriza continue to defy any and all attempts to be seduced into a "Unity Government", knowing full well that, as soon as they accept, the entire party will be rendered irrelevant. Maria Petrakis, Natalie Weeks and Marcus Bensasson report for Bloomberg:

Syriza Says It Won't Join Greek National Unity Government (Update 1)

 

Greece's biggest anti-bailout party, Syriza, said for the second time in as many days that it won't join a unity government, pushing the country closer to new elections that have sparked concerns about a euro-area exit.

 

"Syriza won't betray the Greek people," leader Alexis Tsipras said in statements televised on state-run NET TV after a meeting brokered by President Karolos Papoulias between the party and the leaders of the New Democracy and Pasok parties. "We are being asked to agree to the destruction of Greek society."

 

Papoulias began a final bid to coax the three biggest parties into a coalition today after a week of talks which failed to deliver on mandates to form governments. He will meet later today the leaders of the four other parties to probe the likelihood of forming a national-unity government. If Papoulias's efforts fail, new elections will need to be called.

 

Greece's political impasse since inconclusive general elections May 6 has raised the possibility another vote will have to be held as early as next month, with polls showing that could boost anti-bailout Syriza to the top spot. The standoff has reignited concern the country will renege on pledges to cut spending as required by the terms of its two bailouts negotiated since May 2010, and, ultimately, leave the euro area.

   

Under the terms of the bailout, a new government will need to spell out how it will save 11 billion euros next month.

 

Fitch Ratings said in a report on May 11 that the outcome of another election would be "unpredictable" and "make it doubtful that Greece could comply with the EU-IMF's end-June deadline to propose further medium-term austerity measures."

 

While Greece would probably be granted an extension to that deadline, any attempt to significantly renegotiate its program would be unacceptable to the so-called troika of the European Commission, IMF and European Central Bank, Fitch said.

 

"The impression from this week's unfruitful negotiations on the formation of a new government is that Greek political parties have taken the view that new elections in June are the only way out," Riccardo Barbieri, chief European economist at Mizuho International Plc said in a note to investors on May 11. "If new elections are called, they will indeed amount to a referendum on staying in the euro."

So what can the Eurocrats possibly do now to keep this torturous freight train from running off the rails? Despite (because of) all of the meetings and summits held, all of the "agreements" reached, the bailout tranches released, the austerity measures imposed and the debt "voluntarily" restructured for Greece, the Eurocrats have failed to keep one of their tiniest members in tow. Now, the German publication Spiegel is even speculating on the possibility of simply giving the Greek government pledged funds after they exit the Eurozone, with contributions coming in from "all 27 EU Member States". Here is the translation, courtesy of Zero Hedge:

Greece To Get European Aid Even After It Exits, Speculates Spiegel

 

Greece is to SPIEGEL information even in case of egress expect further € billion bailout from the European EFSF. The European rescue package is designed by the Federal Ministry of Finance therefore emphasize only those amounts that go directly to the household of Greece. Those billions, with which the bonds will be served, which took over the European Central Bank (ECB) as part of its rescue measures should, however, continue to flow.

 

This is to the consequences of a possible €-egress will be mitigated. This could be prevented with the central bank losses, hit by the end of the budgets of the Member States.

 

Further consideration of the House of Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble (CDU) provide, according to Spiegel, that the Greeks, even if they get no help from the rescue more pots of the euro countries, not to be left alone. Greece remains a member of the EU, they are entitled to assistance from Brussels, as are accorded to other EU countries with its own currency in trouble. These would be funded not only by the countries of the Euro-zone, but by all 27 EU Member States.

 

After the elections of last Sunday and so far unsuccessful attempt to get a government concluded in Athens, is in the black-yellow coalition government talked more openly about the possibility of a Euro exit - resentment is growing. An Athens exit from the euro would be "not the end of the euro nor the end of the EU," said CSU head Horst Seehofer: "We need to get Germany's economic strength, which is more important than a stay in Greece in the Euro zone."

Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel and floating proposals that have absolutely no chance of going through. Even if this did occur, would the bond markets actually believe continued support for Greece will counteract all of the negative economic, financial and social contagion effects from a Greek exit? Not a chance. And how would the German people react to the fact that they are facing hard-line austerity proposals from Merkel's government, while also being forced to GIVE away money to a country that is no longer even in the monetary union? Perhaps in a similar fashion to the French, who just ousted pro-austerity puppet Sarkozy from office? Stephen Brown of Reuters gives us a pretty clear answer to those questions:

Merkel's party routed in big German state

 

Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives suffered a crushing defeat on Sunday in an election in Germany's most populous state, a result which could embolden the left opposition to step up its criticism of her European austerity policies.

 

The election in North Rhine-Westphalia (NRW), a western German state with a bigger population than the Netherlands and an economy the size of Turkey, was held 18 months before a national election in which Merkel is expected to fight for a third term.

 

She remains popular in Germany for her steady handling of the euro zone debt crisis, but the sheer scale of her party's defeat leaves her vulnerable at a time when a backlash against her insistence on fiscal discipline is building across Europe.

 

According to first projections, the centre-left Social Democrats (SPD) won 38.8 percent of the vote and will have enough to form a stable majority with the Greens, who scored 12.2 percent.

 

The two left-leaning parties had run a fragile minority government for the past two years under popular SPD leader Hannelore Kraft, whose decisive victory on Sunday could propel her to national prominence.

 

Merkel's Christian Democrats (CDU) saw their support plunge to just 25.8 percent, down from nearly 35 percent in 2010, and the worst result in the state since World War Two.

 

"This is not a good evening for Merkel," said Gero Neugebauer, a political scientist at Berlin's Free University.

 

"The SPD is strengthened by this election, which will stir things up in Berlin."

 

The blow comes only two days before France's new president, Socialist Francois Hollande, is due to visit Berlin and press Merkel for a shift away from austerity and more emphasis on growth-oriented measures in Europe.

 

Other big countries like Italy also want Merkel to take a more balanced approach to the debt crisis and an election in Greece last week showed massive public resistance to tough austerity.

From the South to the North, East to the West, Periphery to the Core, the EU experiment of economic and political union is being ripped apart at its seams. The latest bouts of disease-like democratic elections are serving as the catalyst for this fatal reaction within Europe, but the truth is that it never really stood a chance. You can only impoverish and enslave the people of a society so much and for so long before VERY NASTY things start to happen within it. Where exactly we go from here is difficult to say, but we can be quite sure that the Sun has nearly set on the days of "extend & pretend".

Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by einhverfr #2935
RE: Greece could exchange their Euros for USD on the open market, just like they could keep using Euros if kicked out of the Eurozone. The big issue is that they couldn't have their banks borrow from central banks. This is an issue but as Ecuador has shown it's not a fatal one.

So Greece currently collects taxes in EUR. They could sell those EUR for USD. This is an interesting proposition because the sheer volume of USD traded on a given day makes Greece relatively unable to affect that market significantly, but it might cause a serious devaluation of the EUR so I think they'd have to proceed slowly rather than just buy/sell on a single day.

This would only work along with strategic default on most or all of the Greek debt. Question: how much of the Greek debt is owned by Greeks?
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by bluebird #2934
RE said "aging Rosie the Riveter will get a job making Tanks at the old GM Plant"

Not in my city. Most of the old GM, DELCO,& NCR buildings have already been torn down.
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by Reverse Engineer #2932
pipefit wrote:
A few years (or months?) from now, there either won't be any social security checks, or their purchasing power will be nil. Sure would be nice to have a huge garden, your own source of clean water, etc.


Actually, in the near term of a few years, I would expect to see a vast EXPANSION of the SNAP Card system where EVERYONE, Retired and UE alike will all get food, energy and health care ration cards in a Wartime Economy. Conscription will take care of the young UE problem and aging Rosie the Riveter will get a job making Tanks at the old GM Plant.

I dont think we get to the complete breakdown stage until AFTER the Final War is finished, and that will likely take a few years.

RE
http//www.doomsteaddiner.org
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by pipefit #2931
"The reason I did is that what you said austerity meant for you seemed quite different than the term's accepted usage."

'Austerity' is a good, average, ordinary, common word that is used occasionally by English language people. But in the context of the PIIGS' survival, or failure to do so, it has taken on a new shade of meaning that cannot possibly be confused with the garden variety meaning.

Let me sum it for you. The PIIGS version of 'austerity' goes like this, lol:You SHALL set your retirement age higher than that of your German benefactors, or you won't have a retirement.'

However, if you have been reading sites like TAE and Zero Hedge, surely you now by now that this is a moot point, and no amount of austerity, regardless of the meaning, will salvage the Western version of 'retirement'. There isn't going to be retirement for the bottom 95%.

This is whole point of the self sufficiency articles. A few years (or months?) from now, there either won't be any social security checks, or their purchasing power will be nil. Sure would be nice to have a huge garden, your own source of clean water, etc.
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by YesMaybe #2926
pipefit

First off, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought "any" was referring to the people, not the work.

Now, I am not trying to oversimplify anything. I am not claiming that reversing austerity will fix greece's problems, or that leaving the euro would, or any such thing. In fact, I'm not talking exclusively about Greece (and didn't even mention greece in my post). Many of the points I listed are being implemented in places like the US and the UK. I was just illustrating examples of measures which fall under the term 'austerity' (though in many cases they don't like to use that word... you don't hear republicans using it much, for example). The reason I did is that what you said austerity meant for you seemed quite different than the term's accepted usage.
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by Reverse Engineer #2916
skipbreakfast wrote:
RE, you were seeking to compare Ecuadorian debt to Greek debt. Keep in mind that both countries would be essentially repudiating all their debt, period. CH Smith notes in his article that the plan is dependant on a total 100% repudation of debt. By adopting the US dollar, it gives the Greeks some time to rebuild without being totally hyper-inflated into non-existence. At the moment, if they were quick, the Greeks could convert all their Euros to Dollars at a very reasonable exchange rate, all things considered!


You still haven't told me where the Greek Goobermint is going to get Dollars to pay all its Pensioners and Civil Service Workers.

RE
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by pipefit #2910
YesMaybe wrote:
pipefit:

I'll assume you're not a troll (even though the claim you can't find anyone who wants to work is pretty suspect), and merely suggest that what you picture as austerity is just your own misconception. To remedy it, I offer here some examples of measures which fall under that term, and you can figure out for yourself which of them have been implemented or proposed and where:

-- Firing teachers and increasing class size.
-- Cutting funding to public universities.
-- Cutting pensions for people who have no other income.
-- Raising the retirement age when there are already too many people for the jobs available.
-- Decreasing the minimum wage.
-- Large increases in utility prices.
-- Cutting funding for health services.
-- Cutting unemployment benefits.
-- Increasing sales tax (which is generally regressive).
-- Freezing public sector salaries in the face of inflation.


I said that I had sympathy for folks that want work, but can't find it. But if a Greek garment maker can't compete with a Chinese counterpart making a dollar of two per day, that is not 'austerity', at least in terms of what the Germans are asking of Greece. That is 'globalization' in play.

You are trying to oversimplify the Greek problem, and that is why you are so off base. Yes, the Greeks are suffering, due to globalization, just like the USA. But the Germans aren't focusing on that. In fact, the Germans can probably sympathize with Greek businessmen that are undercut by Chinese low wage workers. Rather, the Germans are focusing on the gravy train of PUBLIC sector bureaucratic workers that are sucking at the public teat (not teachers). And Greek millionaires that aren't paying taxes.

This is why Greece hasn't left the Euro. Once they leave the Euro, Greece will descend into chaos as they rape their millionaires, or the latter attempt to escape the country, or there is some sort of civil war, with the wealthy protected by paid militias.

Greece just had a historic election. Where is the talk of 'tax the rich' to pay for starving people that are out of work? They are hinting at leaving the euro, but they haven't done so yet. That is what will set off 'austerity', over and above the punishment of globalization.
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by skipbreakfast #2907
RE, you were seeking to compare Ecuadorian debt to Greek debt. Keep in mind that both countries would be essentially repudiating all their debt, period. CH Smith notes in his article that the plan is dependant on a total 100% repudation of debt. By adopting the US dollar, it gives the Greeks some time to rebuild without being totally hyper-inflated into non-existence. At the moment, if they were quick, the Greeks could convert all their Euros to Dollars at a very reasonable exchange rate, all things considered!
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by einhverfr #2906
RE: I think you have to ask realistically what options are open to the Greeks and what the costs are.

1) They can stay with the Euro, and continue to deal with the question of democracy being secondary to the policy preferences of central bankers......

2) They can re-issue the Drachma, see hyperinflation, and have to deal with IMF demands regarding monetary policy.....

3) Or they can go with the US Dollar. Buy dollars on the open market in exchange for Euros.

I think you would be right as to the problems with #3 if this was still 1999. However, a lot has changed regarding US monetary policy in the last ten years, and in particular we have seen a shift from a strong dollar policy to a weak dollar policy. A conversion to USD would mean a strong uptake in the demand for dollars which strengthens the currency. The result is that the fed has to create more money to weaken it again. I don't see a downside here for Greece, and I see the US as more or less having to accommodate Greek wishes here because failure to do so undermines current US currency policy......
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by YesMaybe #2900
pipefit:

I'll assume you're not a troll (even though the claim you can't find anyone who wants to work is pretty suspect), and merely suggest that what you picture as austerity is just your own misconception. To remedy it, I offer here some examples of measures which fall under that term, and you can figure out for yourself which of them have been implemented or proposed and where:

-- Firing teachers and increasing class size.
-- Cutting funding to public universities.
-- Cutting pensions for people who have no other income.
-- Raising the retirement age when there are already too many people for the jobs available.
-- Decreasing the minimum wage.
-- Large increases in utility prices.
-- Cutting funding for health services.
-- Cutting unemployment benefits.
-- Increasing sales tax (which is generally regressive).
-- Freezing public sector salaries in the face of inflation.

Now, I'm sure there are plenty of bureaucrats getting paid to do nothing. But that's neither here nor there. If you can find a way to make the public sector (or the private sector) more efficient, that'd be great (if it were implemented). But that is absolutely not what austerity is about.

I'm with you when it comes to peak oil, but what it's going to lead to ultimately is a collapse of capitalism, because capitalism requires growth. Austerity will be attempted to drag it out, but it always leads to trouble, and collapse is inevitable. The sooner the better, I think.
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by Reverse Engineer #2899
einhverfr wrote:
RE,

In 1999, the Ecuadorian governent ditched their currency and went to the USD as their national currency. The exit would be very simple, if Greece initiated it. People just convert their current Euros into USD, and this means that the Greek government ties their currency to a central back attached to an actual governmetn, and that the IMF cannot use currency policy as a bargaining tool.

They can then start to use strategic, partial defaults to reduce their debt load.

All of the above will take time though.

Keep in mind that "money" is mostly a matter of accounting entries in banks. Actual cash is a small part of the money supply.


What was the total Debt Load of the Ecuadorian Goobermint in1999 when they made this shift? I suspect it was a whole lot less than the Greeks Owe.

Second, while I see how it is quite possible for Greeks who have some Euro Savings to convert them NOW to Dollars, I don't see how the Greek Goobermint can pay any of its workers in Dollars. My guess with the Ecuadorian Goobermint and its Civil Service structure was that it was a whole lot smaller than Greece's structure. They also likely did not have the massive Pension Obligations the Greek Goobermint has.

I do not think Ecuador provides a good model here for the Greeks to follow. Ecuador was not a nominally "industrialized" country and part of the Eurozone travesty of MASSIVE accumulations of Debt to Finance an unsustainable infrastructure. Ecuador doesn't have the dependence on Oil and Carz that Greece has as a result of decades of building up an automotive based economy.

Of course in the grand scheme of things, Greece itself is still Small Potatoes, though a pretty Big Potato compared to Ecuador. Compared to Spain hitting the Wall though, Greece is nothing.

RE
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by einhverfr #2898
RE,

In 1999, the Ecuadorian governent ditched their currency and went to the USD as their national currency. The exit would be very simple, if Greece initiated it. People just convert their current Euros into USD, and this means that the Greek government ties their currency to a central back attached to an actual governmetn, and that the IMF cannot use currency policy as a bargaining tool.

They can then start to use strategic, partial defaults to reduce their debt load.

All of the above will take time though.

Keep in mind that "money" is mostly a matter of accounting entries in banks. Actual cash is a small part of the money supply.
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by Reverse Engineer #2897
skipbreakfast wrote:
einhverfr,

Do check out Charles Hugh Smith's latest, in which he persuasively argues that Greece's best option may be at least a temporary adoption of the US dollar:

www.oftwominds.com/blogmay12/Greece-dollar5-12.html


Adoption of the FSofA Dollar is MORE than likely in the Black Market as it develops in Greece, but the Greeks can't pay their Civil Service Workers in this Toilet Paper. The Greek Goobermint doesn't have a direct line to Da Fed like JPMC does. They can't Swap Worthless "Collateral" for FRNs.

The Greeks can "earn" some Dollars by selling Olives and Feta Cheese, but they cannot earn ENOUGH Dollars this way to keep all the Lights On and the Carz and Trainz running. In fact, they will probably need to keep all their Olives and Feta Cheese inside Greece anyhow just to feed the population, so exporting this stuff will be difficult.

The only real way the Greeks might earn Dollars is throught he Tourist Trade, but how many Amerikan Touristas are going to go visit the Parthenon when there are Food Riots in the Streets of Athens? Especially once the Lights go Out int he Hotels, Greece is not going to be a spectacular Tourist Destination. It would sorta be like taking a vacation in Kabul or Damascus.

RE
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by einhverfr #2896
That's exactly what Ecuador did, Skipbreakfast.
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by skipbreakfast #2894
einhverfr,

Do check out Charles Hugh Smith's latest, in which he persuasively argues that Greece's best option may be at least a temporary adoption of the US dollar:

www.oftwominds.com/blogmay12/Greece-dollar5-12.html
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by einhverfr #2893
It seems to me that when you have a single monetary instrument covering a bunch of at least allegedly democratic governments iwth their own policies then the people fundamentally become the enemies of the central bankers.

I don't believe the Euro can survive. But this is an interesting development because without the Euro, there are even fewer good alternatives for a world reserve currency to the USD, so the European debt crisis may be a good thing for a while for the US.
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by skipbreakfast #2892
Another great TAE article that cuts to the chase, Ash.

I was confounded by the Spiegel article when I read it on Zero Hedge. It made no sense to me that the EU would continue to financially support Greece even after an exit. At least, it made no sense given the players involved. Because of course a humanitarian EU would indeed continue to help Greece for many reasons, not the least of which is that they'd have a starving population next door, with all the inherent risks of civil war so close to other populations, which is just no good at all. But we aren't talking about humanitarians here are we.

Indeed, I fully expect the exact OPPOSITE of Spiegel's article. If Greece is first to leave, the EU will strike down upon Greece with great vengeance and furious anger so as to make a very clear example to any other peripheral country thinking of exiting next. No matter what, an exit MUST appear to be the truly WRONG thing to do. No matter what route Greece chooses in an exit, the EU will make it exorbitantly difficult on Greece. The EU will welcome civil war in Greek borders because then they can say to Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland (and France?!), "see what happens if you leave!"
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by pipefit #2890
TheTrivium4TW wrote:

If I've missed something here, do share the details of how wishing austerity will go away will actually make it go away.


What austerity? Don't get me wrong. I'm not an evil goon, and I have a tonne of sympathy for folks that want to work, but can't find any. I not trying to play word games, but I wouldn't call high unemployment 'austerity', in and of itself.

When I think of 'austerity', I think of a worthless Greek government bureaucrat that does no work getting fired. Or a Greek millionaire paying just half the tax his American counterpart would pay. That hasn't happened, yet. But it will when they go off the Euro.

Massive austerity in the West is inevitable, regardless of what the handlers want. All the easy to produce oil has been produced. Interest rates have been cut to zero. Our factories have been exported to the low cost producer, China. We're at the end of the line.
The title to the article says it all.

There's no way out. People that don't work, historically don't eat. I'm not against food stamps, but it is not a good sign that 1/7 of the USA population receives them.
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by sangell #2889
Americans look at Europe's problems with something of a 'it can't happen here' POV but I think it can happen here. We have some very large states with immense budget problems and, just like the PIIGS, they are losing competitiveness to states that don't have their debt problems. Think California vs Texas or Illinois vs Ohio.

If this situation goes on for a few more years where states like California and Illinois state budgets continue to deteriorate, taxes are raised to stem the red ink and business and high income taxpayers relocate to escape the situation what's to prevent our PIG states to be in the same situation as Greece or Spain. These states could be frozen out of the bond market or face ultra high interest rates to roll over their debt. Deep cuts in state and local government programs and payrolls that exacerbate their decline and a reluctance of other states to bail out their pension obligations or extend Federal help to them.
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by Reverse Engineer #2888
ashvin wrote:


BTW, did Marx reject "communism" after predicting evil dictators would take control (Stalin and Mao) or did he have his own gaping blind spot as well?


I'm not what you mean here. He never rejected Communism or predicted "evil dictators" would take control of anything. He believed the workers of the world would unite and create a "dictatorship of the proletariat", with all means of production owned collectively through the State. Although, he was upset with some of the so-called Socialist movements that took hold while he was alive (obviously not Stalin or Mao, as they came after he died). He is said to have remarked, "If that is Socialism, then I am not a Socialist", or something like that.


Remarkably few people grasp that neither the Soviet Union or China were "Communist" at all, any more than the FSofA was ever a "Free Market Democracy" either. The education system and media on this side of the line has so thoroughly identified all things "Communist" as being associated with Mao and Stalin that few people will even listen to a Communist argument without bringing them up.

These theoretical concepts have never existed in reality, anymore than there has ever been a Utopia. Basically all societies since before Babylon have been run by the Illuminati. The political systems are just Window Dressing.

RE
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by Reverse Engineer #2887
ashvin wrote:


Elimination of political leaders probably wouldn't do much good here. Perhaps it would provide some very short-term relief, but it is really the anti-austerity mentality that has now taken root across Europe, and that's something that cannot be whacked. Hell, a suspicious killing of Tspiras may just make it stronger.


Assassinations are always good for pushing the situation over the cliff. think Archduke Ferdinand.

In this case, it would solve the Greek Economic problems by starting a full scale Civil War inside of Greece, likely to spread pretty rapidly into Spain.

If the Illuminati feel like they are losing control on the Economic level, the logical alternative for them is to start a War. At least, that has always been the methodology.

RE
www.doomsteaddiner.org
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by ashvin #2883
TheTrivium4TW wrote:
Even if they leave the Euro, they are toast. They will impoverish their savers and the Big Finance Capital oligarchs likely won't sell them oil or, if they do, it will be for an arm and a leg.


When Greece exits the EZ, it will reflect a loss of control among the Western elites, no matter what actually ends up happening in Greece. The popular/political resistance to the Eurocratic agenda is not only a Greek phenomenon anymore, but is popping up all over the Union. I am not claiming that any of it is a "solution" or a clear path to freedom, but it is a reality that cannot be ignored and I do think that it is clearly OUTSIDE of the NWO agenda.

Yes, they will punish Greece severely to set an example (through capital/trade/emigration restrictions), but that kind of deterrent does not work well with other populations when they have little left to lose anyway. It's the same reason why the death penalty (Greece) does not really act as a deterrent in places with the penalty of life in prison (everywhere else). I am confident that the Greek exit and its resulting economic, financial, political and psychosocial effects will be a very big blow to BFC.


BTW, did Marx reject "communism" after predicting evil dictators would take control (Stalin and Mao) or did he have his own gaping blind spot as well?


I'm not what you mean here. He never rejected Communism or predicted "evil dictators" would take control of anything. He believed the workers of the world would unite and create a "dictatorship of the proletariat", with all means of production owned collectively through the State. Although, he was upset with some of the so-called Socialist movements that took hold while he was alive (obviously not Stalin or Mao, as they came after he died). He is said to have remarked, "If that is Socialism, then I am not a Socialist", or something like that.
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by TheTrivium4TW #2882
ashvin wrote:

Elimination of political leaders probably wouldn't do much good here. Perhaps it would provide some very short-term relief, but it is really the anti-austerity mentality that has now taken root across Europe, and that's something that cannot be whacked. Hell, a suspicious killing of Tspiras may just make it stronger.


Hi Ash, that's why systemic control is so important.

It doesn't matter what the Greeks want or think now, they are under control of the financial oligarchs.

Even if they leave the Euro, they are toast. They will impoverish their savers and the Big Finance Capital oligarchs likely won't sell them oil or, if they do, it will be for an arm and a leg.

The only real chance we have is to identify who the real criminals are (you know, the "authorities"), put them in jail and set up sovereign nation states that each have the ability to issue their own currency within certain limits.

If I've missed something here, do share the details of how wishing austerity will go away will actually make it go away.

BTW, humanity has to wake up to the fact that they can't rob future generations forever. The people are nearly as bad as the oligarchs, they just don't have the power to inflict their selfishness onto the others that the banksters have attained.

It's a cesspool of greed (selfishness).

BTW, did Marx reject "communism" after predicting evil dictators would take control (Stalin and Mao) or did he have his own gaping blind spot as well?
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by ashvin #2880
Reverse Engineer wrote:
GREAT Header Pic there Ashvin! Where do you guys go to dig up these pics? Any particular archive I should be pilfering from?

Far as Tspiras goes, one hopes he is wearing Body Armor all the time and avoids small and large planes, limousines and restaurants.

RE


The pic is from Shorpy. Although... it's kind of a TAE THING started by I&S.

Elimination of political leaders probably wouldn't do much good here. Perhaps it would provide some very short-term relief, but it is really the anti-austerity mentality that has now taken root across Europe, and that's something that cannot be whacked. Hell, a suspicious killing of Tspiras may just make it stronger.
Posted: 1 year, 1 month ago by Reverse Engineer #2876
GREAT Header Pic there Ashvin! Where do you guys go to dig up these pics? Any particular archive I should be pilfering from?

Far as Tspiras goes, one hopes he is wearing Body Armor all the time and avoids small and large planes, limousines and restaurants.

RE









 

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Stoneleigh Occupies:

 

Nicole Foss Lecture Tour:

AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND March-June 2013


New Zealand May/June Dates still available


June 5 Takaka
Palm Beach Hall 7.30pm

June 6 Nelson
St Joseph’s Hall, Manuka St, 7.30pm

June 7 Port Motueka
Baycourt 7.30pm

June 9 Christchurch
WEA Rooms, 59 Glouscester St. 6.30pm

June 11 Christchurch
Polytechnic for Technology, Imagitech Theatre 12pm

June 12 Christchurch
BHU Organic Centre, Lincoln University 12.10pm

June 13 Timaru
Aoraki Polytechnic, Arthur Street 3pm

June 16 Oamaru
Oamaru Opera House. Thames St 10am

June 18 Dunedin
Pine Hill School Hall, 11 Hislop St, Pine Hill 7.30pm

June 19 Dunedin
Burns 2 Lecture Theatre, 95 Albany Street, University of Otago 6pm

June 22 Auckland
TBA TBA

June 24 Auckland
TBA TBA


US Fall 2013 - Dates Available

Request Lectures: StoneleighTravels •at• gmail •dot• com.


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