By A Web Design

Goodness! Gracious! Great Wall's on Fire!





The Great Wall of China (built in Ming Dynasty) winds its way through deserts, basins, plains and mountains of North China extending over 6,350 km (3,947 miles)

Please allow me to start off with a few explanatory bits. At The Automatic Earth, we have always defined inflation in a different manner from most other sources. That is to say, we define inflation as an increase in money and credit supply (relative to available goods and services), combined with velocity of money, not as simply an increase in - some - prices.

We see this this as significant because if inflation is defined as any price increase, we lose sight of why prices increase, a crucial "detail". Similarly, we don't attach much importance to CPI numbers, since they lack the same attention to detail we find with the definition of "inflation" as it is generally reported and used.

That said, I think it's high time to look at some recent Chinese data and try to draw what - initial- conclusions we can from them. I also think we can peer through them towards a picture of the future that few have acknowledged to date, and perhaps even fewer wish to. If what I'm about to say is even halfway true, the economies of countries like Australia and New Zealand, which we visited recently, as well as many others, are in for a brutal shock.

I single out Australia and New Zealand because their economic growth, indeed by now their entire economic performance, which has been far better than the US and EU in the past 5 years, would be torn and frayed to shreds if the Chinese economy would hit one or more serious snags. And from what I see I can draw just one single conclusion: it will. The consequences down under will be shattering.

Now you may be aware of the fact that I have warned about China for years, and have predicted a civil war there before this decade is over (and/or China waging war abroad). Simply because the rate of growth in the Chinese economy is not "sustainable", and because trying to achieve that rate, China unleashed, among other things, the by far largest human mass migration in the history of mankind, which has seen 100's of millions of people move from rural to industrial areas.

And in record time too. Which causes a few problems along the way. John Hempton at Bronte Capital touched on this - and many other topics - in a great piece recently.


The Macroeconomics of Chinese kleptocracy

Every economy that has moved peasants to an export-orientated manufacturing economy has had rapid economic growth. Great Britain industrialized at about 1 percent per annum. It was slow because all the technology needed to be invented for the first time. During the 19th Century US economic growth – once started – ran about twice the rate of the UK.

They copied the technology which was faster than inventing it. Later economies (eg Japan, Malaysia, Thailand, Korea) went later and faster. As a general rule the later you industrialized the faster you went – as the ease of copying went up. In the globalized internet age copying foreign manufacturing techniques and seeking global markets is easier than ever – so China is growing faster than any prior economy.

This fast economic growth – which would happen in a more open economy – is creating the fuel for the Chinese kleptocracy.


Not everything scales up well; actually, not much does. China has industrialized at break neck speed, and created a lot of expectations, both at home and abroad, which will be very hard if not impossible to meet. If you want to put it in starker terms, you might say it has unleashed something akin to Pandora's Frankenstein. A monster the entire world counts on to save them. Not a smart idea.

China's trade surplus as a percentage of GDP is shrinking. Hence, growth will have to come from domestic demand. The government has tried all sorts of tricks to boost this, but it can't change people's habits overnight. The Chinese people are savers. More so perhaps today than ever before. There is no welfare net to catch them, and the one-child policy has left them with too few children to fall back on. Hempton explains:


In most developing countries the way that people save is they have multiple children hopefully to generate a gaggle of grandchildren all of whom are trained to respect their elders. Given most people did not live to old age if you did you became a treasured (and well cared for) family member.

This does not work in China. Longevity in China is increasing rapidly and the one-child policy results in a grandchild potentially having four grandparents to look after. The “four grandparent policy” means the elderly cannot expect to be looked after in old age. Four grandparents, one grand-kid makes abandoning the old-folk looks easy and near certain.

Nor can the elderly rely on a welfare state to look after them. There is no welfare state.

So the Chinese save. Unless they save they will starve in old age. This has driven savings levels sometimes north of fifty percent of GDP. Asian savings rates have been high through all the key industrializations (Japan, Korea, Singapore etc). However Chinese savings rates are over double other Asian savings rates – this is the highest savings rate in history and the main cause is the one-child policy.


OK, so the Chinese save. But how? They have few options, and - ironically - all of them are money losers. The Chinese can't invest abroad. And their stock markets are rigged. Bank deposits pay 1% or less, because the government regulates the interest rates (and all banks). Life insurance pays a little more, but not much. Their best bet often is real estate (even if many apartments are left empty), simply because they hope losses will be smaller (though prices have plummeted in many areas). The reason all options are money losers is rising prices (what most call - price - inflation). Hempton:


[..] inflation has been between 6 and 8 percent (but is now lower than that and is falling fast). At almost all times (except during the height of the GFC) the inflation rate has been higher – often substantially higher – than the regulated bank deposit (or life insurance contract) rate.

In other words real returns for bank accounts are consistently negative – sometimes sharply negative.

You might ask why people save with sharply negative returns. But then you are not facing starvation in your old age because of the “four grandparent policy”. Moreover because of the underlying economic growth (moving peasants into a manufacturing economy) there are increasing quantities of these savings every year. This is the critical point – the negative return to copious and increasing Chinese bank deposits drives a surprising amount of the global economy and makes sense of many things inside and outside China. And those deposits are mostly lent to State Owned enterprises.


It works like this: with price inflation at 6% and a bank deposit return of 1%, Chinese banks and SOEs have access to enormous amounts of savings - which (still) grow all the time - at de facto negative rates. And because of restrictions placed on the banking system, a lot of the savings are reaching the market through the shadow banking system. To what extent Beijing itself is ruled by the kleptocracy is hard to say; the October 2012 elections could be a harbinger of further developments in that sphere. More from John Hempton:


The SOEs are the center of the Chinese kleptocracy. If you manage your way up the Communist Party of China and you play your politics really well you may wind up senior in some State Owned Enterprise. This is your opportunity to loot on a scale unprecedented in human history.

Us Westerners see the skimming arrangements. If you want to sell kit (say high-end railway control equipment) to the Chinese SOE you don't sell it to them. You sell it to an intermediate company who on-sell it in China. From the Western perspective you pay a few percent for access. From the Chinese perspective – this is just a gentle form of looting.

A normal business – especially a State Owned dinosaur run by bureaucrats – would collapse under this scale of looting. But here is the key: the Chinese SOEs are financed at negative real rates. A business – even a badly run business – can stand a lot of looting if it is (a) large and (b) funded at negative real rates.

Those negative real rates are only possibly because there are copious bank deposits available at negative real rates to State controlled banks.

When you have copious funds at a negative cost a lot of investments that look stupid under some circumstances suddenly look sensible. US Treasuries look just fine. Don't think the Chinese are going to stop holding Treasuries. The Treasuries yield far more than they pay the peasants. The Chinese make a positive arbitrage on holding low rate US bonds.


The reality is: the banks and SOEs - that is to say, those party members that control them - get paid4-5% to borrow money !!, which they can then use to run industries that make a lot more money. As long as the system lasts. Which it does only as long as price-inflation numbers stay high and economic growth remains robust. And that's where things are starting to go wrong.

Problem no. 1: slowing growth. From Reuters:


China Growth May Dip Below 7%: Government Adviser

China's annual economic growth could fall below 7 percent in the second quarter if weak activity persists in June, an influential government adviser was quoted on Wednesday as saying. The forecast by Zheng Xinli, a former deputy director of the Chinese communist party's policy research office, is among the most bearish by any government and private sector economists.

"GDP growth in the second quarter could fall below 7 percent if there is no significant improvements in economic data for June," the overseas edition of the People's Daily quoted Zheng Xinli, now deputy head of the China Center for International Economic Exchanges (CCIEE), a top government think-tank, as saying.

China's industrial output growth usually outpaces GDP growth by 3-5 percentage points, the newspaper cited Zheng as saying. China's industrial output rose 9.6 percent in May from a year earlier, picking up slightly from a three-year low of 9.3 percent stuck in April.


Problem no. 2: falling inflation. From Zarathustra at Also Sprach Analyst:


China’s inflation fell to 3.0% yoy in May 2012

China’s CPI inflation continued with its downward trend in May.

The headline consumer prices index inflation fell to 3.0% yoy in May, lowest reading since June 2010, down from 3.4% yoy for the previous month, and below market expectation of 3.2%. On a month-on-month basis, CPI fell by 0.3% in May, down from a fall of 0.1% in the previous month.

Just as mentioned before, we are seeing sharply lower food prices in May, which fell by 0.8% on the month in May, while on a year-on-year basis, food prices inflation is down to 6.4%. Non-food prices increased by 1.4% compared to a year ago, while it remained unchanged on a month-on-month basis


Problem no. 3: liquidity. Zarathustra again:


Credit Suisse: China is in a liquidity trap

[..] ... while we have had no doubt about the willingness of the Chinese government to maintain growth, we have had serious doubt about the ability of the government to actually spur growth when necessary. Perhaps following paragraphs will not be the thing that bulls want to read the most. China is in a liquidity trap, just like everyone else in the world. That’s according to Dong Tao of Credit Suisse.

This is not a usual thing to be heard regarding to China. After all, the popular definition of liquidity trap is more or less that interest rates are already close to zero such that there is no way to be lowered, and there is indeed much room to cut interest rates across maturities. So it seems, at first glance, to be absurd to claim that China is in anywhere close to a liquidity trap.

But we did talk about debt deflation. We firmly believe that this is, if not already happening, will soon happen. In a debt deflation scenario, debtors will be rushing to pay down debt (or else they are defaulting), and the economy is not interested in taking on more debt. In that scenario, cutting interest rates alone will indeed have very little positive impact on lending. We are probably not quite near a liquidity trap, but sooner or later, we believe we will get there.

Dong Tao of Credit Suisse (one of the very few sell-side China economists that we actually care what they say) believe that China is in a liquidity trap:

However, we believe that a cut in the lending rate will only have limited impact in stimulating investment. We believe China is in a liquidity trap. With a low interest rate environment, further cuts in interest rates may not get much of an additional impact. Today’s problem in China is not about funding cost or bank liquidity, but demand for loans for real businesses.

As companies in the real businesses struggle with surging costs, over-capacity, and weakened demand, the incentive to conduct real investments is low. It would take some structural changes to jump-start the momentum of investments in the private sector, instead of just through easing monetary policy.


Problem no. 4: money supply. And there we get to our definition of inflation: as shrinking money supply and velocity of money. Ambrose Evans-Pritchard:


Global slump alert as world money contracts

Growth of the world money supply has dropped to the lowest level since the financial crisis of 2008-2009, heralding a severe economic slowdown later this year unless authorities rapidly take action.

The latest data show that the real M1 money supply – cash and overnight deposits – for China, the eurozone, Britain and the US has been contracting since the early Spring. Any further falls risk a full-blown global recession. [..]

The world money data collected by Simon Ward at Henderson Global Investors show that real M1 for the G7 economies and leading E7 emerging powers peaked at 5.1pc in November and has since plunged to 1.6pc in April. The data explain why commodity prices are falling hard, with Brent crude down to a 16-month low of under $97 a barrel.

China's money data are falling at the fastest pace since records began. The gauge – six-month real M1 – gives advance warning of economic output half a year ahead. "Europe needs to start quantitative easing [QE] immediately and China must ease policy," said Mr Ward.


The shrinking money supply is a global issue. It it proof that the inevitable debt-deleveraging is continuing, or you might say has taken off for real. Inevitable because the mountain of debt from our recent past needs to deflate. It makes no difference what governments and central banks try to stop this process.

China could be hit harder than just about any other country by this. It needs a high economic growth, of some 7% of more, or the engine will roll off the rails. And the powerful and wealthy party members need a high rate of price inflation to keep their kleptocratic scheme alive.

Obviously, it doesn't look like either will be there. China depends on exports, and they are falling, on the back of the ongoing and worsening global crisis. Getting the Chinese people to increase their consumption levels is of course not very likely when their prospects become less sunny.

The government can try to get the inflation rate up by pumping more money into the economy, but it's hard to see any reason why the Chinese would go out and borrow it. By and large, what they would want to spend, they already have in savings. They're not Americans yet, certainly not in that regard. More infrastructure investment? There are limits there too.

So it would look like China is caught in a trap. John Hempton again:

The Chinese kleptocracy – and indeed several major trends in the global economy – depend on copious quantities of savings at negative expected rates of return by middle and lower income Chinese.

There are two core threats to this system – one widely discussed – one undiscussed.

Inflation (widely discussed) is known to produce riots and demonstrations in China – and is considered by Westerners to be bad news for the Chinese establishment. And there are good reasons why the Chinese riot with inflation – the poor who save because they are going to starve – get their savings taken away from them. But ultimately the Chinese establishment like inflation – it is what enables their thievery to be financed.


 


The more serious threat is deflation – or even inflation at rates of 1-3 percent. If inflation is too low then the SOEs – the center of the Chinese kleptocratic establishment will not generate enough real profit to sustain the level of looting. These businesses can be looted at a negative real funding rate of 5 percent. A positive real funding rate - well that is a completely different story.

The real threat to the Chinese establishment is that the inflation rate is falling - getting very near to the 1-3 percent range. Low Chinese inflation rates will mean reasonable returns on savings for Chinese lower and middle income savers. Good news for peasants perhaps.

But that changing division of the spoils of economic progress will destroy the Chinese establishment (an establishment that relies on a peculiar and arguably unfair division of the spoils). The SOEs will not be able to pay positive real returns to support that new division of spoils. The peasants can only receive positive real returns if the SOEs can pay them - and paying them is inconsistent with looting.

If the SOEs cannot pay then the banks are in deep trouble too. All because the inflation rate is dropping. Maybe they can stop it dropping. The Chinese establishment has a vested interest in getting the inflation rate up in China. Because if they don't all hell will break loose.

Unless the Chinese can get the inflation rate up expect a revolution.


"Maybe they can stop it dropping". Well, I don't think they can. I don't see how. It looks like China can print money, but no-one wants it anymore. Indeed, former stimulus has led to overcapacity, so there's no point in doing even more. As CCB International Securities analysts Banny Lam and Rocky Zhang recently wrote:


"Today, China’s manufacturing industry, and by extension the entire economy, is suffering from massive overcapacity in both infrastructure and industrial production causing prices to plunge, utilization rates to fall, profits to decline and the number of bad bank loans to rise."


It's not possible, for obvious reasons, to pinpoint when all this will reach critical mass. What we can say, though, is that the harder Europe falls, the harder China will. China is not some miracle story, it's simply just another part of the insane global credit bubble machine we've all thought was making us rich. We know better now, or should at at least, and the Chinese soon will too.

That will in all likelihood lead to fierce battles between the politburo, the party members and the Chinese triad mafia on the one hand, and 1.3 billion citizens on the other. Not a pretty prospect.

Whichever faction takes over power in October may decide to go looking for some Lebensraum in places like Siberia, and send 1 or 2 or 10 million of the 1300 million people they have, abroad. Not a pretty prospect either.


 

Posted: 10 months, 3 weeks ago by JoeP #4111
Posted: 11 months ago by JoeP #3877
Chinese Data Mask Depth of Slowdown, Executives Say

Money quote:

Indeed, officials in some cities and provinces are also overstating economic output, corporate revenue, corporate profits and tax receipts, the corporate executives and economists said. The officials do so by urging businesses to keep separate sets of books, showing improving business results and tax payments that do not exist.

I'm shocked.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by davefairtex #3731
pipefit -

Protecting wealth with gold and silver, sure I can see that. Lots of ways gold & silver come up on top. FRNs might work out too, but government policy can change the game overnight (a currency recall) in a disagreeable way. Governments can't "recall" gold. I'm completely in agreement with you that storing wealth in tangible assets is a good idea.

I thought you were suggesting hedging energy costs because your example talked about a mine preserving its purchasing power w/r/t energy costs by either storing fuel itself (if they had space), or by storing gold. You then had a few lines about how their prices move together, more or less. And you actually used the word "hedging".

My only point was, and remains, gold & oil prices sometimes move for very different reasons. Its not about predicting twists and turns, its about understanding what moves prices. The same news item that drives gold up, may drive oil down. Usually they move in tandem, but sometimes they don't - and this happens often enough, and violently enough, to be disagreeable for someone trying the strategy you propose. To reiterate, from a price perspective, gold and oil (fuel) are NOT always interchangeable.

If you want to hedge your energy costs, are staying put, and you have room for a big tank of diesel, I'd pick that over gold any day of the week. I can think of several scenarios where gold retains value, but fuel is simply unavailable - or its use highly controlled.

If you want the option to be able to bug out of the country and you want to store your wealth in something guaranteed to be accepted in a foreign country, I'd pick a combination of FRNs and gold - probably more gold than FRNs. At least to date, you can still buy tickets, food, and bribe border guards with FRNs.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by vangoat #3709
pipefit, you are not up on your Robert Louis Stevenson on the gold confiscation question, because "them as has can hide!" and "Them as wants gotta find!"
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by pipefit #3704
@dave--I'm not trying to hedge oil/energy prices. Sorry about the confusion. I'm trying to protect wealth. The best way to do that is to hoard tangible assets, including gold and silver.

Obviously, it is not practical to hoard oil or gasoline. But many other items are easily hoarded without much environmental risk, such a copper, stainless steel, a year or supply of food, fresh water, etc.

Gold has the advantage of being portable, but it will probably be confiscated, as our freedoms continue to be systematically removed.

The dollar is the healthiest horse in the glue factory right now. If that is good enough for you, then I empower you to attempt to protect your wealth with greenback fiat, lol.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by Glennda #3693
Steve from Virginia said
"You have to define 'assets', most of the world's arable land is already improperly cultivated, most of the world's fisheries are over-exploited, most of the world's forestry resources exhausted, etc. You cannot redistribute a cut forest or 'buy' new topsoil for Ukraine. Once a resource is gone, it's gone. "

Excellent point about the assets. They may not be worth as much as they could be, but I think the differential between the top 1% and the bottom 40% is still valid. Certainly the bottom 40% will get the exhausted and poisoned assets. And maybe that is the real point that the top will get enough to live on and the bottom will just die off for lack of useable resources. If we keep to this wealth inequality, that's the likely outcome. Those of us who get lucky enough to be in the middle will get the dregs.

On the topic of GOLD.
I was driving with some friends along the Sacramento river and delta area and our friend and guide who works for the Dept of Agriculture pointed out a lot of "gravel pits". He said that lots of those are popping up recently, but what they really are is hunts for gold washed down ages ago before the 49ers polluted the river and bay from 1849 - 1860s. So looks worth turning that poor farm land into a gravel pit.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by Nassim #3689
Pipefit,

For many years, gold miners were selling their gold before they got it out of the ground - to finance the operation. Central banks would lend their gold, the miners would sell it for cash, the miners would pay their way with this cash and eventually return the loaned gold plus interest (in gold). Of course, banks were intermediaries in all of this.

For the past 5 years or so, gold miners have stopped doing this. They are no longer short-sellers of gold. Some of them learnt a very expensive less and will not be doing it again any time soon. Even the gold miners got brainwashed by the fiat crowd.

www.silveraxis.com/GSU_Dallas_Mining_Letter.pdf
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by steve from virginia #3686
Sorry, I had to rewrite those two lines because they didn't make sense:

What the establishment desires above all else is credit expansion not less. Credit is foundational necessity for industrialization, not parasitic upon it.


The advantage of industry is scale and credit concentration (and lower credit cost) and survival during periods of 'ruinous competition'. We actually don't need any of these things: getting rid of scale advantages would allow opportunities for individuals to 'create their own work'. This is different from scale-businesses which are asked to 'give' jobs like Christmas presents (offer them as products alongside their ordinary products). As it is, credit allows businesses to afford to fire their workers and buy machines to replace them.

We already know how to do these things but the advantages accrue to the big businesses which lever up from there: the businesses enable big government which in turn enables bigger businesses.

You have to define 'assets', most of the world's arable land is already improperly cultivated, most of the world's fisheries are over-exploited, most of the world's forestry resources exhausted, etc. You cannot redistribute a cut forest or 'buy' new topsoil for Ukraine. Once a resource is gone, it's gone.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by Glennda #3685
Steve from Virginia said -
"What is needed today for industrial expansion is credit expansion not less. Credit is foundational necessity for industrialization, not parasitic upon it."

Thanks, Steve fV for the insightful post. I only have one question.

Why do we 'need' industrial expansion'? It seems that might be good/necessary for the system of capitalism. But really what we need more than general expansion is re-allocation of business and the things money can buy. We don't need new models of cars or new plastic gadgets from China, we need jobs that can give poor people more of the money wasted on 'middle class' unnecessary consumerism. the bottom 50 % of the world only gets 1 % of world assets. The top 1 % of the world has 40 % of world assets.

If 50% of the world is currently living on only 1% of the world assets, then we don't 'need' to be in overshoot. What we need is a democratically equal allocation of all these goods. Again it's the 'middle class' consumerism that is eating us alive, not the population.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by steve from virginia #3682
1. "willingly, voluntarily trade their dollars for a useful physical good"-Let's do away with legal tender laws, and then see what people willingly use.


If elephants had wings the size of 737s and gate access they could always start an 'Elephant Airlines' and offer super-low fares.

2. "Priced in crude oil dollars have real worth"-That is flat out untrue. Under the threat of getting the treatment Saddam got, oil producers accept nothing but dollars. The USA military has real value, not dollars.


Oil producers accept all currencies that trade freely on foreign exchange markets (which means most currencies). Why do you think Dubai was invented? It's a foreign exchange hub. How about Singapore? How about the euro? The little countries in Europe were tired of being hosed in foreign exchange markets buying d-marks and sterling in order to buy fuel. BTW, there are all sorts of crude producers outside the Middle East. The 'Saddam destroyed for dollars' is another ZeroHedge myth.

3. "there are negative real interest rates"-true. That means that inflation is greater than 1.5%, which at 6% is certainly higher than 10 yr treasury yields.


Interest rates are set by credit supply and demand: when there is little effective demand for credit rates plunge. See Irving Fisher 'Debt Deflation'. Also, steer clear of Shadowstats, which is mostly nonsense.

4. and galloping deflation! "-read your own comment about negative interest rates, lol. If we had deflation, then interest rates would be positive-i.e. 1.5% 10 yr treasury PLUS the rate of deflation.


Sorry to rain on yr parade, low-negative interest rates occur when there is deflation (for various reasons including currency preference). Interest rates are to some degree a lagging indicator as credit is the product of a 'momentum' (success-breeds-success) industry.

Credit is cheap at the beginning of credit expansions when there are many potential creditors relative to potential borrowers.

Credit can be cheap (and is now) because there is an absence of borrowers. This is because there are no remunerative investments (only scams).

Currency worth is inflated by deflation ... Look up Fisher's 'money swells' thesis: swelling money is similar to high real interest rate but is really high real REPAYMENT rate. In other words, a borrower must repay debts with currency that is worth more than it was at the point of the loan. Few will borrow when there is a high real repayment rate even if there is very low nominal interest rate (like now)!

************************

The real problem today on Planet Earth is industrialization itself. It has never offered a return while requiring endless debt to support it. If you have money (credit), what do you spend it on, an industrial 'good'? What is that worth, really?

Relative worth is the problem, not the form that enables exchange. It's not the euro or the debt (or the yuan or Treasuries) but rather what these things can be exchanged for.

When the absence of utility is noticed, it becomes useful to buy primary goods (like petroleum) rather than manufactured consumer products. Here petroleum stands in for gold which is simply one primary good versus another.

When petroleum has more utility than the cars that waste it then the dollars become fuel-gainers rather than car gainers. At some point the car business falls apart (as is happening in Europe right under your nose). This then reinforces currency preference: worth more to the holder than it is to the car maker (who is denied the use of the currency).

The problem is at the end of your driveway (not in your safe-deposit box). Our dilemma is been posed as sets of choices/questions: 'drive a car or live the bourgeois life?' You can no longer do both. Next choice is 'drive a car or have a job?' We keep making the same wrong choice: next (now) is 'do I drive a car or have something to eat?' It gets grim from there.

Currency has little to do with this dynamic. This is why most monetary tactics are irrelevant. It's not the money, rather what the money enables. Money emerges from context: if you create a better way to interact, better forms of money (which is a set of rules) will emerge to support it.

You have to forgive me, I use 'window economic theory'. I develop my theory by looking out the window and seeing what's underway outside. I don't pay much attention to blogs because they are mostly insecure people looking for reinforcement and easy answers. Keep in mind that ALL of the hard-money/metal money strategies were attempted during the 19th century -- and found wanting. There are reasons there are no gold standards anywhere in the world, gold cannot support industrial development and (required) credit expansion.

What the establishment desires above all else is credit expansion not less. Credit is foundational necessity for industrialization, not parasitic upon it. People believe that 'solving' credit or getting rid of it will 'save' industrialization: what is underway is the currency-destruction of credit caused by unaffordably high fuel prices: fuel prices -> unaffordable debt costs -> excessive restructuring costs -> systemic bankruptcies -> fuel shortages and increasing real fuel costs -> de-industrialization and collapse of modernity (Greece, Spain, France, China, Japan ... US).

************************

I have a friend of mine who runs a coin shop and he laughs at the 'gold bugs'. "People buy gold and silver," he says, "after awhile they want to sell and the only place which will buy the gold and silver is here or another coin shop." Gold bugs are like alcoholics in a bar, enough of them will keep a coin shop in business, selling and buying the same coins over and over.

I'm sure there are lines of esoteric arguments against this phenomenon but since the dude has been in business for fifty years or so I presume he knows what he's talking about: 'Window Economic Theory'.

*************************

Because gold is a primary good/natural resource, it will have value (distinct from worth) in any post-industrial regime. However, because post-industrial economies cannot be imagined clearly, what role gold might play in the future is speculation.

During the transition, the issue is what would a gold-holder trade for: a business? A can of beans? A new car?
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by davefairtex #3679
pipefit -

I agree predicting each "little turn" is impossible. But these turns weren't little. A close tracking might have a 10% differential. The ratio between these two instruments varied by 76% over a five month period. That's not close, that's absurdly far. Just look at the chart, you'll see what I mean.

Perhaps our disagreement has to do with understanding how an effective hedge actually performs. A hedge should lessen volatility over every timeframe. Your hedge actually increased volatility, and it was over the very first timeframe I looked at.

I'm not trying to pick nits here. I like gold. Its just - your strategy as stated doesn't work. Or did you already acknowledge that and I just missed it?

One addendum. A decent proxy for "silver + gold" is CEF. Check the CEF:$WTIC weekly chart. Its range is more volatile. In this case, from .16 up to .31, and then back down to .20 over the course of two years.

The problem is, both silver & gold move for different reasons than oil does. If you traded these items, you'd have seen this. And that takes me back to theory & practice.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by pipefit #3675
@dave--It is difficult to predict every little turn in the road. Why don't we look at the last 12 years, from the bearmarket (oil and pm's) low. Unless I'm mistaken, oil is up 700%, silver is up about 900% and gold is up about 550%.

So if you saved in gold AND silver, ignoring the absurd 'gold only' advice of FOFOA, you would be hedged pretty well. And that is the just about the most favorable starting point for oil.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by davefairtex #3671
pipefit - "...since they held on to the gold, they will still get about the same purchasing power. Not EXACTLY the same, because gold and oil don't track each other PERFECTLY, but reasonably close."

In practice, over a relatively short term, that does not appear to be true. If you chart the gold/oil ratio (stockcharts: $GOLD:$WTIC, select weekly timeframe) - a.k.a. barrels/ounce, you will see it go from 13 in March 2011 to 23 in August 2011. That's a really big range. If gold & oil tracked each other "reasonably closely" that ratio should not be varying that wildly. A 76% move over a five month period of time is a really massive move.

What's the old saying - in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by pipefit #3667
RE said, "The problem Nassim is that Gold is NOT in fact a good representation of Energy, whether measured in barrels of oil or food calories."

Wrong. Mining is energy intensive. That is why gold makes for an excellent choice to use for money. Energy is always an important consideration. When energy is cheap (e.g. 1980's and 90's) gold will reflect this, since gold will be relatively inexpensive to dig out of the ground.

You don't seem to understand the difference between wealth and a store of wealth. Apples, copper, oil, shoes, etc. are examples of wealth. Gold is an example of a store of wealth.

If a company uses some energy, lumber, steel, and human labor to dig some gold out of the ground, and refine it into pure, above ground gold, they have some money. Let's say that they have 1000 ounces of gold money. This particular company, let's say, decided to keep the 1000 ounces in their safe. They could have received 16 barrels of oil for the gold, or $1600 (cash), but decided to keep the gold.

A year later, let's say that there is a war in Saudi Arabia, and oil is now 3 times more expensive, in dollars, $300/bbl, instead of $100/bbl. If the gold miner, in this example, had traded their gold for dollars, they would have lost 2/3 of their purchasing power with respect to oil. But, since they held on to the gold, they will still get about the same purchasing power. Not EXACTLY the same, because gold and oil don't track each other PERFECTLY, but reasonably close.

A large gold miner with a lot of storage space might want to have a big fuel tank to guard against shortages and price spikes, but gold will work well for intermediate and long term hedging. They could also hedge with derivatives, but then there is counter party risk--think MF Global, lol.

A year later,
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by william #3666
I am not sure on the amount of savings dumped into this but because I was investing in stocks I watched news papers around the world. The Chinese paper I followed repeated had articles about the physical purchase of gold and silver. Even news casts where the government encourage this type of saving.

How could the Chinese government invest in infrastructure so greatly? Like America they could invest in the military and even going on mini wars that greatly displaces money from the system and from there point of view only has upsides.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by Golden Oxen #3664
As mentioned earlier the brain washing against Gold has been very thorough, deliberate, and successful. The cacophony of ludicrous and incoherent postings on the subject presented, some bordering on insanity, certainly proves it. The banksters, as usual, have been most adroit at enslaving the foolish and dim with their confetti and credit schemes. Most amazingly, it has worked against a group of intelligentsia who think they are on to them and their sleazy tricks. A Divine Comedy for sure.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by davefairtex #3663
RE - "Isofar as Daves argumet goes that many Asians hold personal gold, relative tot he population percentage I would dispute that one."

Sure, relative to the population I'd agree. But that's not what I said, nor is it the point. You asserted that "[gold] is mostly held in undergound Vaults controlled by a very few people." I said that was not true, because a large amount of gold is held by relatively normal people in asia as an alternate means of storing wealth. And that unlike the US, it is a common thing to do.

Folks who are slightly above water behave differently in asia than those in the US. With no social security, they're required to save. So, higher savings rates, gold being seen as a normal savings vehicle, and very large absolute populations means the percentage of their total population that can save, use gold to do so to a far greater degree than people in the west at their same income level, percentagewise their savings is larger, and so they vastly outnumber the number of normal westerners who save in gold in both absolute numbers of people, and in total tons of gold owned.

If India has 18k tons in private hands, and China has the same, and the rest of Southeast Asia maybe has another 10k tons - 46k tons is a good sized chunk of the 140k ton world gold holdings. It certainly outnumbers the 30k tons held by central banks.

RE also said: "Those who do have Gold Rings and Necklaces are quite likely going to be handing them over for Twinkies pretty soon."

Any particular reason why they'd do such a thing? The people I know don't seem predisposed to "quite likely" exchange their gold for Twinkies. Absent a compelling motivation that you haven't presented yet, I'm going to file that under "not gonna happen."

And what is "pretty soon" to you? 20 years? Or perhaps next month?
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by pipefit #3662
steve said, "Those who believe the dollar is worthless confetti might take some time and re-think. Millions of Americans and others willingly, voluntarily trade their dollars for a useful physical good every single day and have done so for decades. Priced in crude oil dollars have real worth. As a consequence... there are negative real interest rates and galloping deflation! "

With all due respect, you are, in order, wrong, wrong, right, and wrong.

1. "willingly, voluntarily trade their dollars for a useful physical good"-Let's do away with legal tender laws, and then see what people willingly use.

2. "Priced in crude oil dollars have real worth"-That is flat out untrue. Under the threat of getting the treatment Saddam got, oil producers accept nothing but dollars. The USA military has real value, not dollars.

3. "there are negative real interest rates"-true. That means that inflation is greater than 1.5%, which at 6% is certainly higher than 10 yr treasury yields.

4. and galloping deflation! "-read your own comment about negative interest rates, lol. If we had deflation, then interest rates would be positive-i.e. 1.5% 10 yr treasury PLUS the rate of deflation.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by Reverse Engineer #3660
Nassim wrote:
RE,

On the one hand, you say (rightly) that the resources per unit of gold will drop.

On the other, you say (rightly) that the gold will not be available as it will be hidden (i.e supply will drop).

I think that the second argument is much stronger than the first one and so gold is going to be a good way of preserving value - Econ 101


Paradox of Thrift there Nassim. It's occuring in Dollars as well as Gold right now. The portion of the population in surplus of the extant money starts to hoard it, and this accelerates the deflationary collapse. Why would I go out and buy a chunk of Real estate today if I figure by holding my gold, I will be able to buy twice as much a year from now, eh?

So those who have some surplus money hold onto it, and resultat from that the commerce slows to a crawl, and this results in BKs of those who depend on commerce to keep going. Overall, they generally depend on a lot of liquidity to keep this system functioning, but the Paradox of Thrift prevents that.

The end result is that by the time you pull the gold coins OUT of the Basement Safe, there is nothing left to buy with them.

Isofar as Daves argumet goes that many Asians hold personal gold, relative tot he population percentage I would dispute that one. MOST Indians and Chinese are desperately poor people who can barely buy enough food these days. Those who do have Gold Rings and Necklaces are quite likely going to be handing them over for Twinkies pretty soon. Its still not a large percentage of the population anywhere who holds PMs. More in absolute numbers in Asia perhaps, but by percentages those folks are mostly poorer than dirt.

RE
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by davefairtex #3659
RE -

"Gold is relatively fixed in supply, and will be moreso as the energy becomes unavailable to mine it. Oil and Food on the other hand will become more scarce."

Some conflicting points. No more gold supply should make gold relatively more scarce than it is now; say at 1.9% per year. (Above ground gold: 140k tons; annual mining supply: 2.7k tons). That should increase value.

However, if a population decline occurs, gold will become progressively less scarce, relative to population. Lets imagine if world population drops slowly from 7B down to 2B, its likely gold would drop pari passu. Housing too, actually, come to think of it.

Now gold RELATIVE to food & oil, well I think RE's point here is a valid one. I'd say the gold/oil ratio will likely decline, as gold remains constant and the supply of oil drops.

Still, there's one more detail we might be missing. Gold is currently just one mechanism for wealth storage out there. Most of the rest of the wealth storage is currently in paper. If there is a phase change in the near future - if that paper rushes into gold at some point, because of repression, devaluation, default, etc, gold might temporarily hyperinflate in price. (Oil isn't a great wealth storage vehicle - it's too bulky, etc).

I say hyperinflate temporarily because I think RE's calculus is right. Over time, the gold/oil ratio should deflate as gold supply remains constant, population drops, and oil becomes more scarce.

But I think on the path between here, and RE's suggested price trajectory (where gold eventually becomes ... well lets just say "less valuable"), there will likely be a gold price spike. How high that spike goes, that's the question.

RE also said: "Besides this is the vast Centralization problem Gold already has. It is mostly held in undergound Vaults controlled by a very few people and they are not going to chop it up into coinage to hand out to people to do commerce with."

That's actually not true. Official gold holdings are 30k tons. Household gold in India alone is 18k tons. This is out of an estimated 140k tons.

You assert the Illuminati control most of the gold in the world. I'm guessing your assertion is based on your own life experience. Well I'm going to assert there is a huge chunk of gold in private hands, in asia. I lived in asia for several years, and I know a fair number of upper middle class people that have decent amounts of gold sitting in their safes at home, or at the bank. This isn't thought of as strange or paranoid, it's quite normal. Sex trade workers ask their benefactors to buy gold chains for this very reason. They can wear the gold to show their friends and family they are successful, and if bad times hit, well its off to the gold shop to sell the necklace and the problem is solved. (Jewelry is treated less romantically and much more pragmatically - kind of like a wearable bank account).

After a big price spike up in gold, the upper middle class people run off to the gold shops to sell their little bars - there are literally hundreds of people waiting in line to execute their trades and walk away with purses and briefcases full of cash. After large spikes down, that same crowd runs to the gold shop to buy.

Is this normal activity where you live? I bet not. I have never known a westerner to do any of this outside the goldbug crowd, and those guys just buy and hold forever. The "spread" for buying/selling physical gold is quite low, less than 0.5% for bar gold, and perhaps 2% for reselling jewelry of the standard purity. Compare this to the spread for gold in the US - its not even close. That low spread should give you a sense as to the overall amount of traffic and the frequency with which it happens.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by TheTrivium4TW #3657
The Players:

Mega Banksters - they control the money supply and government (their operatives are financed and promoted by their media into office) and, therefore, control whether looting, inflation and/or deflation will occur and in what order.

They also own trillions in cash and trillions in debt instruments via their front corporations.

Everyone else:

Enslaved Debt Money Tyranny and the Central State protected monetary crime syndicate.

Now, if you disagree with any of the above, please present a cogent argument - because I think there is enough data out there to prove both groups and their standing well beyond a reasonable doubt.

Now, if you accept the two parties and their respective level of control, riddle me this, Batman: Why would the Bankster super inflate while they are holding trillions in cash and debt instruments?

NOBODY on the straight to hyperinflation side of the argument answers that question in anything close to a reasonable manner, yet that is the MONEY question, as it were.

The retort is usually, "well, they haven't done it yet." True, but you need to consider the context. They are looting society out of trillions of dollars in "bailout" (societal debt enslavement) debt receipts and saddling society with all the debt! Yes, the dollar may be temporarily devalued 10%, but they doubled their cash, so they don't care.

They would care dearly about zeroing out their trillions in cash and debt holdings, though, so that's an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SCENARIO THAT WHAT WE SEE NOW. Apples on Earth to oranges in a different galaxy.

What about Argentina? How about answering the original question? It isn't easy to answer, is it? Argentina was actually a DEFLATION from the perspective of the Banksters. IOW, their cash could BUY A LOT MORE in Argentina AFTER the collapse of the Argentinean currency.

You can't think linearly in a 3 dimensional financial world.

Would you hyperinflate if you owned trillions in debt receipts, bank credit and debt instruments?

Or, rather, would you loot all the cash you could (in process), pull the plug and deflate, bust the debtors out of their REAL WORLD ASSETS, BANKRUPT AND ROLL UP THE COMPETITION UNDER YOUR TBTF&J CORPORATE FRONTS and then, only after you've impoverished the nation states and rolled up ownership of the real world under your front corporation, hyperinflate to balance your books (and when it doesn't matter any more as the Banksters own everything by busting the indebted proles)?

Yeah.

Water is wet - that's how obvious the answer is here.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by Nassim #3654
RE,

On the one hand, you say (rightly) that the resources per unit of gold will drop.

On the other, you say (rightly) that the gold will not be available as it will be hidden (i.e supply will drop).

I think that the second argument is much stronger than the first one and so gold is going to be a good way of preserving value - Econ 101
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by Reverse Engineer #3653
Nassim wrote:


Ashvin & RE,

Why bother having energy as a form of currency, when gold is an excellent representation of energy. South Africa's gold mines should have closed down decades ago - because of ever lower grades - if the price of energy in terms of gold had not dropped. I would much rather carry a few gold coins rather than many oil barrels around with me.


The problem Nassim is that Gold is NOT in fact a good representation of Energy, whether measured in barrels of oil or food calories.

Gold is relatively fixed in supply, and will be moreso as the energy becomes unavailable to mine it. Oil and Food on the other hand will become more scarce. So, relative to either Oil or Food, over time each Gold coin will become worth less, until it is in fact worthless. Econ 101.

Besides this is the vast Centralization problem Gold already has. It is mostly held in undergound Vaults controlled by a very few people and they are not going to chop it up into coinage to hand out to people to do commerce with. The alternative is to create Paper Notes or Digibits based on Centralized Piles of Gold, but of course you know where that one leads.

DFT wrote:

One thing to note: oil in and of itself is not useful either. In fact, its toxic by itself. Only after it is refined, and presented to a machine, and that machine is switched on, at that point it turns into a useful "energy slave." Likewise, gold is not intrinsically useful either. It has to be presented to a society that values gold. At that moment - just like gasoline being burned in an ICE - it too turns into an energy slave, because of that willingness of that other society to accept gold in exchange for surplus. In that sense, the gold-valuing society is much like a machine fed by refined oil


It's true that much of the current value of Oil comes from the ability to do useful work with it courtesy of the ICE, Jet Engines etc. So when the EROEI for pulling up Oil lowers to the point you can no longer run the refineries then the value of the Oil drops quite a bit, but not to Zero even unrefined. This because Bunker Fuel (basically unrefined Oil) can still be used to run steam turbines on ships and railroad locomotives, as well as being used for heating purposes.

Gold CAN drop to Zero value in a society suffering extreme scarcity of the basics of food. If you imagine the Farmer with his family and say few Feudal Serfs he recruited from the hordes of the UEY growing just enough food for all of them, if you show up at his farm Gold Coin in hand, will he trade you any of that food for the Coin? Unlikely. He has to have a decent surplus before he will make that trade.

There will of course be imbalances for quite a while here to come I suspect, with some folks (Illuminati) with plenty of Food and all the rest of J6Ps in Calorie Deficit daily, gradually wasting away and becoming more susceptible to infectious diseases until you get your Pandemic. You can't trade your Gold to these Illuminati for their Food either. Why? Because THEY have most of the Gold ALREADY! So the only thing left here for you is to trade your Soul and Body to them as a Slave in return for "their" food, grown on "their" land. Long as you keep buying into the idea somebody can "own" the land, you have this problem.

Fact is of course, they don't even need your Labor all that much, just a few Slaves are necessary and the rest are Useless Eaters. So 99/100 J6Ps can't even trade their SOULS for their daily bread. As Revelation 18 said, even the SOULS OF MEN go worthless, right along with the Gold and Silver.

You can either allow this dyamic to proceed unchecked, or you fight it and knock down those who purport to "own" the Earth. You wait for the Failure of the Conduits, and then you take them out. Pull out the Winchesters.



RE
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by davefairtex #3652
RE - "Gold is not valuable in itself, as Ashvin said it doesn't exist in a Vacuum. Gold became a REPRESENTATION of wealth for many reasons, but always represented wealth in a world of relative surplus."

Gold's value is based on rarity, society, momentum, and trade. Since many societies have for thousands of years held gold to be valuable, this self-referential momentum linked to trade has effectively created that worldwide collective reality that gold is valuable.

Since gold is relatively rare, a small amount has relatively great value. This makes the value for gold transitive, kind of like a virus. Perhaps at one point in history, only one society valued gold. Other places didn't care, until trade started to happen. At that point, any society connected by trade to that gold-valuing society started to notice a value for gold, because small amounts of gold could be traded for relatively larger amounts of less-rare portable goods that the gold-valuing society produced.

In that way, gold became valuable everywhere, communicated like a virus. Likely this was a very long time ago. When the conquistadors landed in Mexico, the natives there almost immediately started to appreciate that gold had value, at least to these guys in metal shirts on horses. At that moment they caught the virus if you will - well one of many anyway.

So in answer to your question about our hypothetical Saudi prince, if they remain connected by trade to a society that values gold and is willing to trade weapons for them, those Saudi princes can turn an large supply of gold into a large number of weapons. Seems useful to me. Because of gold's relative rarity, there's no diminishing utility. More gold = more weapons. Or more food. (back of the envelope: there's about 1/2 an ounce of gold above ground for every person on earth)

As for the surplus issue, even if a society does not produce a surplus overall, if the society is relatively large (i.e. more than a couple hundred) there will be individuals within that society that most certainly DO have a surplus. Trade can exist with these members who have managed to extract a surplus (most likely from others, who have a deficit).

One thing to note: oil in and of itself is not useful either. In fact, its toxic by itself. Only after it is refined, and presented to a machine, and that machine is switched on, at that point it turns into a useful "energy slave." Likewise, gold is not intrinsically useful either. It has to be presented to a society that values gold. At that moment - just like gasoline being burned in an ICE - it too turns into an energy slave, because of that willingness of that other society to accept gold in exchange for surplus. In that sense, the gold-valuing society is much like a machine fed by refined oil.

Let me repeat: even if a society that values gold has no net surplus, individuals within the society WILL have a surplus most of the time. Gold can be traded to them for their surplus. Thus, your gold will continue have value, but only as long as you are connected by trade to a society whose people believe it has value.

There are times when this doesn't hold - like a siege, or a famine - when the surplus available to society is so minimal nobody has any surplus. But most of the time, gold will have value because some individuals will have a surplus.

My guess is, gold in some societies is a sign of surplus - a status symbol. It gets you respect (and a bigger selection of possible mates) by showing everyone that YOU have surplus. To oversimplify, gold gets you laid. These societies therefore value gold a great deal! This is why gold flowed from West to East, since those in the East valued gold (as a symbol of "surplus") more than in the West. It had a higher exchange rate, in some sense. But that is not because they're geniuses, it just had a higher societal status value there.

So gold. Valuable because of trade, surplus, scarcity, and after 6000 years, momentum. If we lose the machines that turn oil into work, oil loses all its value. If society decides one day that gold is no longer valuable - or if trade stops happening - gold too will lose its value.

Trade has been around for a very, very long time. My guess is trade will continue, and thus gold will retain at least some value, long after all the oil in the world disappears.
Posted: 11 months, 1 week ago by Nassim #3650
steve from virginia,

The only trouble with your thesis is that:

Iran is swapping oil against Indian gold
Iran is swapping oil against Chinese goods
Russia is more and more dealing direct with China - without using dollars
Japan and China have set up an account to exchange currencies directly

All of this is quite recent. It is catching on. While I agree that the dollar is a lot better than its alternatives in the short-term, its days are numbered.

Ashvin & RE,

Why bother having energy as a form of currency, when gold is an excellent representation of energy. South Africa's gold mines should have closed down decades ago - because of ever lower grades - if the price of energy in terms of gold had not dropped. I would much rather carry a few gold coins rather than many oil barrels around with me.

pipefit,

The Indians and Chinese have been hoarding gold and silver for centuries. If you want to know where the precious metals of the Aztecs ended up, you will find them in the Far East. The flow has always been from West to East - never to return. Sure, it is not to be found in their central banks, but that does not mean it is not there. They are not too late at this game.

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