Jun 182012
 
 June 18, 2012  Posted by at 4:15 pm Earth
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thesetrees

We're gonna get a bit controversial on the TAE blog today. I know for a fact that some people will be very offended by this posting, written/compiled by Surly of the Doomstead Diner. Therefore, I'd like preface it with a disclaimer, so to speak. I am going to introduce the issues involved here and give you a few of my thoughts on why they are so important to be considered at this point in time.

The long and short of it is that the posting encompasses an ongoing (never-ending) debate between RE, Surly, I and countless others on various forums, including TAE and the Doomstead Diner, about the wisdom of launching a modern day Inquisition, or what I call the Orkin Man Master Plan ("OMMP") – a plan designed to systemically root out very high-level officials of our corporatist financial system across the globe, and ultimately exterminate them. Everyone agrees that the plan will invariably involve a significant number of innocent "casualties of war" along the way.

First of all, RE wants to make clear that this is just his personal view – one that he feels compelled to defend against critique – and is by no means a reflection of the majority view at the Diner or something that dominates the conversation over there. So let's just take this for exactly what it is – a comprehensive debate over the merits and the wisdom of the OMMP – nothing more, nothing less.

RE argues that such a plan is humanity's last best chance to take the offensive against these wicked forces and destroy them before they destroy us, and it is ultimately a Utilitarian issue of sacrificing a certain % of innocent lives to save an even greater %. Surly disagrees. Some of you may have also read the lengthy exchange between RE and I on this issue, and therefore you know that I whole-heartedly disagree with RE as well.

Surly and I both agree that, in the last instance, it comes down to a question of morality and personal values. Although, there is also plenty of room to debate the nitty-gritty details of this particular OMMP and how it will WORK or NOT WORK, as the case may be. Some of you may be wondering – why even give any credence or exposure to RE's view by acknowledging it in a posting here?

The truth is that most of us are eventually going to have to confront these issues in our lifetimes, and there's no sense in hiding from them now or pretending they don't exist. People are out there making similar arguments to RE as I write this today, and they are only going to make them even louder tomorrow, as societal conditions worsen. And they are dead serious…

Seeing as how the Golden Dawn (neo-Nazi) party has gained a good deal of popularity in Greece in its most recent national elections (GD obtained its first presence in the House of Parliament), this issue of radically reactionary policy is nothing if not very relevant to the process of financial, economic and sociopolitical collapse. It is exactly the type of blowback against "the system" that TAE has been warning about for some time.

Many of the people advocating for some form of OMMP, like RE, truly believe that such a path is our best chance to save the human species and the planet from total annihilation at the hands of minority elites, and have justice meted out to those deserving of it in the process. And some of them, like RE, also happen to be damn convincing with their arguments.

My personal participation in this whole whopper of a debate boils down to my belief that it is INCUMBENT on us to be prepared with a response to calls for blood, and to defend our commitments to avoiding such an outcome – whether those commitments are based in ethical, moral and/or practical concerns. If we are not prepared, then we have already lost the argument before it has even started.

Once the calls for retribution start sounding off in earnest, the momentum will be near impossible to stop. That is why I am posting this here and hoping that TAE readers share my concerns on the one hand, but also come to this issue with tolerance and objectivity on the other. If you are already offended just by reading this Intro to the article, then I strongly advise that you skip the rest of the posting altogether… because, trust me when I say, there is a lot more material for you to stomach below.

Now, with all that out of the way, what follows is Surly's article on the OMMP debate, which really does a great job of tying many different strains of thought together in a succinct and coherent manner. The centerpiece is Surly's very insightful look at the life and times of Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.

This exposition on Pol Pot is immediately followed by RE's response (separated by lines within the text), which has been excerpted from a more fully-formed response to both Surly and I that can be found on DD – Unforgiven. Surly's concluding thoughts on OMMP continue below the fold, where he ultimately tells us to reflect on the priceless question that must be answered by ALL of us at the end of the day – do you TRULY know which side you are on?

 


The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On?

 

 

The Orkin man is one of RE's favorite memes, often invoked as a symbol of retribution by the meek against the great. When we watch gangsters confiscate houses with impunity and murder by proxy and a pen (see the story of Norman Rousseau), run the economy into a ditch, commandeered great bonuses and be subject to none of the usual proceedings of justice, it is easy to despair and to look for revenge. This overwritten screed is a meditation upon what has become a thought-provoking thread rife with implications, a thought experiment which, if followed through the course of its own ineluctable logic, obliges each of us to measure where we would fall, and what we would do, in the event TSHTF.

 

 

What has actually happened here in this country on these rare occasions when people have stood up en masse to Fight the Power? In a previous lifetime, I investigated and created a documentary about the Battle at Blair Mountain. You will likely not have heard of this, the teaching of labor history having apparently been classified as a Class I misdemeanor here in the FSA. In the largest uprising in the United States outside of the Civil War, in 1921, thousands of miners waged armed warfare in Logan County, West Virginia against mine owners, sheriff Don Chafin, and federal troops, in an effort to unionize the mines.

In Mingo, Logan and McDowell counties, miners worked under incredibly bad conditions, were paid next to nothing, had no freedom of speech or assembly, and were dispatched with impunity by mine guards and local politicos in an atmosphere reminiscent of a third-world dictatorship, or contemporary South Carolina. In 1921, thousands of miners and families were evicted from their tents after having the temerity to join a union. The Miners' March, as it was called, was set to change all that. The military was engaged, as always, to Protect Property Rights, those most sacred and revered of all rights extended by the Hand of God to the white, male property owners who created the FSA. The miners' intention was to march to the southwestern coalfields and free fellow miners from abominable treatment at the hands or mine owners.

The miners were opposed by a well-armed contingent of mine guards and State Police with rifles and machine guns. These would eventually be joined by 2,000 regular Army troops armed with airplanes, bombs, and poison gas. The two forces met at Blair Mountain, in Logan County, along the ridge line.

This was the Battle of Blair Mountain.

The battle marked the first time U.S. troops were ordered to bomb civilians. Federal troops squared off against citizen miners, many themselves veterans hardened from recent service in WW I.

The union leader Bill Blizzard eventually surrendered his army in order to avoid further civilian casualties. Blizzard was acquitted in court of insurrection. Future UMW & CIO leader John L. Lewis fought alongside Blizzard at the Battle of Blair Mountain and succeeded in getting recognition for the union 14 years later in southern West Virginia.

One of the songs that sprung up in the wake of these labor troubles with the song "Which side are you on?" It was written by Florence Reece, the wife a union organizer for the UMW in Harlan County, Kentucky, when the miners of that region were locked in a bitter and violent struggle with the mine owners called the Harlan County War. In an attempt to intimidate the Reece family, the local sheriff illegally entered their family home in search of Sam Reece. Sam had been warned in advance and escaped, but Florence and their children were terrorized in his place. That night, after the men had gone, Florence wrote the lyrics to "Which Side Are You On?" on a calendar that hung in the kitchen of her home. She took the melody from a traditional Baptist hymn, "Lay the Lily Low".

 

 

A Song by Florence Patton Reece

 

Come all of you good workers

Good news to you I'll tell

Of how that good old union

Has come in here to dwell

 

Chorus:

Which side are you on?

Which side are you on?

Which side are you on?

Which side are you on?

 

My daddy was a miner

And I'm a miner's son

And I'll stick with the union

Till every battle's won

 

They say in Harlan County

There are no neutrals there

You'll either be a union man

Or a thug for J.H. Blair

 

Oh, workers can you stand it?

Oh, tell me how you can

Will you be a lousy scab

Or will you be a man?

 

Don't scab for the bosses

Don't listen to their lies

Us poor folks haven't got a chance

Unless we organize

So the miners organized together to Fight the Power, to take the law into their own hands because the law was an ass. What they got for their trouble was the full response of the state in all of its Majesty and force of arms. Eventually the legal system would catch up. In the fullness of time, union rights would be recognized, at least until after World War II, when the elites mounted their counterrevolution under the banner of "right to work" laws.

In my loathing for the Banksters and their apologists, I take a back seat to nobody. The bailout of 2008, otherwise known as the "banksters coup," was just the cherry on top of the same toxic milkshake served up as economic and social policy over the last 30 years. The insane clown posse that passes for the modern Republican Party has eyeballed the demographic trends, and pasted together an assemblage of what Drfitglass called "the scattered,raving remnants of the Confederacy for one, last glorious bonfire of democracy." Combine the wholesale assault of the remnant of the New Deal in an atmosphere of "industrialized political hatespeech," Fox News, Hate Radio and the Tea Party with its Billionaire backers, and it's easy to succumb to the desire to want to kill something.

Intellectually I hold with Kunstler's "lamppost and 40 feet of sturdy nylon rope" as the due for the "masters of the universe "who have ground down our economy and wrecked the ship of state. But personal morality makes looping the first skein of rope over the lamppost morally fraught. On the other hand, one is left with the spectacle of the pigmen rooting among the remains of the economy and the country, like Wu's pigs disposing of a fresh corpse in HBO's "Deadwood."

 

 

It is this episode that springs to mind as I consider the "Orkin Man Master Plan" (OMMP) as discussed on the forum of the Doomstead Diner.

The Orkin man is a favorite device of RE, the invoking of which I have enjoyed since the same since his days on The Burning Platform blog. The Orkin man is an exterminator who cleanses the dwelling of lice, vermin, termites and all manner of infestations. The analogy is clear. The remedy less so.

One poster on Doomsday Diner posed the question, "Who gets to be the Orkin man?" Indeed. Who gets to be the decider? Being the decider has great costs, which turned on a fundamental moral issue, at a time when our moral and spiritual institutions are in decline, church attendance down, and many people utterly and completely unequipped to weigh moral and ethical questions. And as much as I like to give voice to my inner hunchback, there is that "judge not lest ye be judged" morality imbued by a Catholic education and nun-beatings that inflects one's thoughts, processes and decisions, even decades later.

As I reflected on the more recent exemplars of individuals taking on such a strategy in this country, and after Blair Mountain, my mind skittered to thoughts of Kosovo, Afghanistan, El Salvador, Pinochet's Argentina, and then settled on the best recent example: Pol Pot whose efforts to form a Communist peasant farming society resulted in the deaths of 25 percent of the country's population from starvation, overwork and executions. Those Khmer Rouge wanted to return to the land as well, and also wanted to cleanse the parasites, usurers and useless eaters from the face of Cambodia. A cautionary tale about the work of idealists who want to remake a society by means of "cleansing" the "parasites…"

It took a while for ol' Pol to consolidate power– he needed to throw in with Sihanouk to fight the right wing junta the US had installed, then the US had to leave the 'Nam and Cambodia. But once in power, he began a radical experiment to create an agrarian utopia that would warm the heart of the most doomy doomster. Pol Pot had seen Mao's Cultural Revolution first-hand during a visit to Communist China, so he figured to go The Great Yellow River Swimmer one better.

Mao's "Great Leap Forward" included forced evacuations of Chinese cities and the purging of "class enemies, " a move that would apparently gain favor among participants in this thread. Pol Pot now stood up his own "Super Duper New and Improved Great Leap Forward" in Cambodia, which in itself was new and improved, hence renamed the Democratic Republic of Kampuchea.

Remember Pol Pot's ringing declaration, "This is Year Zero?" Ah, search your memories. Society was to be "purified." Capitalism, Western culture, city life, religion, and all foreign influences to be extinguished. Intellectuals, bureaucrats and other glasses-wearers were to push wheelbarrows, the better to repent of their pointy-headedness, and to learn the glories of peasant Communism. Foreigners were expelled, embassies closed, foreign economic or medical assistance refused. No use of foreign languages. Newspapers and television stations were shut down, radios and bicycles confiscated, and mail and telephone usage curtailed. Money was forbidden. (That will kick those usurers in the ass.) Businesses were shuttered, religion banned, education halted, health care eliminated, and parental authority revoked. Thus Cambodia was sealed off from the outside world, almost as effectively as if information were controlled by a small handful of media companies.

Something about that live-or-die thingy tends to bring out the excesses in our revolutionary heroes. I'll put that in my "Robespierre was overworked and misunderstood" file.

Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. All of Cambodia's cities were forcibly evacuated. At Phnom Penh, two million inhabitants were evacuated on foot into the countryside at gunpoint. As many as 20,000 died along the way. Can't let that stop a man with a purpose.

Millions of Cambodians accustomed to city life were now forced into slave labor in Pol Pot's "killing fields" where they soon began dying from overwork, malnutrition and disease, on a diet of one tin of rice (180 grams) per person every two days, the better to become compost and improve the yields.

 

 

Workdays ran to the 18 hour day, Pol having taken the American South's "right to work" euphemism to heart. The starving were forbidden to eat the fruits and rice they were harvesting, as that was confiscated by the Khmer rouge and loaded onto their own trucks.

And you can't have a party without the purges… a veritable binge of purges. Up against the wall went the remnants of the "old society" – the educated, the wealthy, Buddhist monks, police, doctors, lawyers, teachers, glasses-wearers all, no doubt. Ex-soldiers were killed along with their wives and children. Eventually the taste for human blood leads to a paranoia of sorts, and why not? Anyone suspected of disloyalty to Pol Pot, including eventually many Khmer Rouge leaders, was shot or bludgeoned with an ax. "What is rotten must be removed," a Khmer Rouge slogan proclaimed.

The casualty count rose until Vietnam launched a full-scale invasion of Cambodia seeking to end Khmer Rouge border attacks. On January 7, 1979, Phnom Penh fell and Pol Pot was deposed, and a Vietnamese puppet government put in.

Pol Pot disappeared into the jungles of Thailand with his Khmer Rouge remnant and waged guerrilla war against a succession of Cambodian governments for decades, eventually sputtering out and dying of an apparent heart attack before he could be dragged to trial before an international tribunal.

 

 

So it matters little who you pick as the Orkin Man, or how good your motives are, or how thorough your efforts at re-education or eradication may be. The role seems to carry some occupational hazards, as if the appetite for blood, human death and destruction carries with it the seeds of insanity.

Although the image of banksters and stockbrokers mucking out pigpens and pushing wheelbarrows through knee-deep mud remains compelling.

(Surly continued below the fold…)

 


 

Unforgiven (RE's response to Surly)

I go through this bizness of the Nasty Dictators all the time with Ashvin over on TAE, and certainly it is not an easy position to take on the Orkin Man Idea when you have such nefarious types as Pol Pot in the Terminix bizness.

I am NOT defending Pol Pot here, because he took on this massively counterproductive attempt at social cleansing with tons of wrong ideas and with tons of corruption involved as well. It also was bound for failure because it was undertaken while the Conduits were still functional.

Taking out the Crystal Ball here and looking into the FUTURE though, let's consider some of the ideas involved in this mess.

 

 

Surly: Mao's "Great Leap Forward" included forced evacuations of Chinese cities and the purging of "class enemies, " a move that would apparently gain favor among participants in this thread. Pol Pot now stood up his own "Super Duper New and Improved Great Leap Forward" in Cambodia, which in itself was new and improved, hence renamed the Democratic Republic of Kampuchea.

On the "Forced Evacuation of Big Shities" question. It wasn't true for sure in Cambodia, but look at the Mass Death that may occur in the Big Shities if they are NOT evacuated before JIT delivery fails. You could have a 99% Death Rate in those places. If Pol Pot II was running the show and forcibly evacuating people NOW, maybe you only get a 50% Death rate. So here PPII goes down in History as the Mass Murderer of say 3B People. Except if PPII had NOT done this, 6B would have gone to the Great Beyond instead.

It's obviously a tough call to make for a Political Leader when to pull the plug on the Big Shities and tell everyone they have to EVACUATE NOW. It will inevitably result in a Massive Death Toll. But if you think it will be WORSE if you don't do it, if you are willing to take the heat as the worst Mass Murderer in all of Recorded History, maybe you do it.

Surly: Millions of Cambodians accustomed to city life were now forced into slave labor in Pol Pot's "killing fields" where they soon began dying from overwork, malnutrition and disease, on a diet of one tin of rice (180 grams) per person every two days, the better to become compost and improve the yields.

OK, here we have mostly agreed that Industrial life is going the way of the Dinosaur and people HAVE to go back to the Land as Farmers at least, if not H-Gs. What is going to happen to Obese J6P when you put him out on the land pushing a plow? Instant Heart Attack! Most people currently used to EZ Living courtesy of the thermodynamic energy of Oil simply are not IN SHAPE to work out in the Fields. Is it PPII's FAULT these folks are too fat and weak to pull their own weight out there?

Surly: And you can't have a party without the purges… a veritable binge of purges. Up against the wall went the remnants of the "old society" – the educated, the wealthy, Buddhist monks, police, doctors, lawyers, teachers, glasses-wearers all, no doubt. Ex-soldiers were killed along with their wives and children. Eventually the taste for human blood leads to a paranoia of sorts, and why not? Anyone suspected of disloyalty to Pol Pot, including eventually many Khmer Rouge leaders, was shot or bludgeoned with an ax. "What is rotten must be removed," a Khmer Rouge slogan proclaimed.

Here of course is the EXCESS which occurs in many an Inquisition/Reign of Terror type scenario. There is going to be a lot of BLOWBACK resultant from many people who have lost their comfortable life and who want to see PPII DEAD because of that. He gets blamed for the problems they have; he gets blamed for their loss of economic status in the society. So PPII gets PARANOID, for good reason. People really ARE out to get him. So he starts Killing Them before they Kill Him.

This of course is the Omellette issue Uncle Joe talked about. Its just about impossible to be a manager of massive Die Off without yourself becoming a Target. Yet if SOMEBODY doesn't get int here and try to manage it, the Die Off is WORSE. Morton's Fork situation of course.

Now, back in Uncle Joe, Mao and Pol Pot's era, if they played along with the Illuminati they likely could have avoided all that dieing. Except these guys wanted to Exit the Game early, and to exit it they essentially were cutting off their Noses to spite their Faces. They lost the ability to Trade with the outside world and were attempting to Go It Alone, and this messed up all their in place systems which sorta worked as long as you paid your Vigorish to the Illuminati.

So all of them go down in History as the most vicious and Genocidal Dictators in all of Recorded History, at least in gross numbers if not in Percentages. I still maintain that the Romanoffs were WORSE than Stalin, but that is not really that important here at the moment.

Moving into the FUTURE here, the issue is you cannot even Save As Many as you Can by PLAYING BALL with the Illuminati. Why? Because said Illuminati are Fresh OUT of Cheap Oil to sell you with Loans they hand out to you. So unfortunately here in this Morton's Fork situation, the social dynamic is likely to produce numerous PPIIs and Great Uncle Joes. Because unless somebody does SOMETHING to try to keep the society organized up, the Dieing will be WORSE than it would be if you have some Dictator FORCING people to evacuate the Big Shities. They aren't going to do that on their own until it is too late and they all are starving and Cannibalizing each other.

Surly: Although the image of banksters and stockbrokers mucking out pigpens and pushing wheelbarrows through knee-deep mud remains a compelling one for me.

You know, I paint all sorts of pictures based on the Spanish Inquisition and the Reign of Terror, but the fact of the matter here is that if you simply took away all their wealth and power and dropped these folks into a Housing project in Chicago and left them their Shoelaces, Silk Neckties and Gucci Belts, they would all Hang THEMSELVES in short order. So if you want to go about it this way to absolve yourself of a sense of Guilt for lopping off their Heads, I am fine with that one also.

Regardless of the means here, whether it is Seppuku or Capital Punishment, the situation is going to create the BLOWBACK from people who once had power, now removed. They will attempt Counter Revolutions and so forth. So you get forced into a battle here no matter what, and people DIE no matter what.

Practical sort of fellow that I am, I work my way through this dynamic to try to find the pathway with the least pain and the greatest survivability for the typical Slave in our society. The means I see working best is to take the battle to the Illuminati before they get the Death Camps rolling in earnest here. You do have to wait for the Failure of the Conduits though, because as long as the Illuminati have the Big Ass Military and Gestapo organized up and functioning, you stand no chance here. Once those Conduits fracture though, the playing field is LEVELLED.

Then you don't just get MAD, you get EVEN.


(Surly continued…)

But point was that any kind of social engineering, social cleansing, ethnic cleansing executed by a political agenda will inevitably collapse, most often due to its own corruption and increasingly escalating paranoia on the part of the strongman or the secret oligarchy of "deciders." There is a reason that we are taught from a very early age, "vengeance is mine saith the Lord, " "Thou shalt not kill," and other Biblical admonishments against the taking of life.

It could be that this ancient wisdom recalls that wielding the tools of vengeance is simply above the pay grade of us mere mortals. On the other hand, psychopaths recognize no such compunction. But the question remains: what do we do, what action should we take at a time when psychopaths have commandeered the engines of government and commerce, economic or rate with complete impunity and beyond the reach of such justice as still remains?

We are thus faced with an untenable situation: if any one of us were to put on the Pol Pot T shirt, we would find ourselves in a similar situation, fraught with awful decisions and tinged by paranoia, regions of the mind visited by Joseph Conrad. Far preferable to remember the biblical injunctions that direct our conduct, as Ashvin observed:

Ashvin: It's not about what we you and I can justify to ourselves with our personal beliefs. It is what you can get OTHER PEOPLE to accept based on their beliefs. Anyone who truly believes in Judeo-Christian theology cannot accept OMMP any more than they can accept Infanticide, even when they are committed with "good intentions" for some Utilitarian goal. According to them, God is perfect and they are imperfect. God has commanded them to avoid certain Sins, and they must have faith in God's wisdom no matter what. It is not up to them to decide what sins are acceptable via good intentions or utilitarian calculations.

Matthew 7:14-27

 

14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.

 

21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

 

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25"And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26"Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27"The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall."

I'm just using [true Christians] as an example of people whose beliefs are fundamentally in opposition to OMMP. They will become your enemies… but them and who else? I think you can easily make the argument that most true Hindus and Buddhists will as well. Now we are easily talking about a lot of people. How many people who claim to believe in these Immortal Truths will have the nerve to follow through when your so-called Herd is stampeding against them? I don't know, probably only a small fraction.

 

But my point here is that some of them will, and people like me will admire them for doing so. It's an amazing thing, really, to have that kind of total devotion to some higher power even in the face of what appears to be the likely threat of species-wide extinction. Talk about a small gate and narrow way!

(Surly)

The question each of us has to address is, Which side are you on? If you knew that those in control were working to box you into a freight car headed to an unknown future, but which would likely involve Fresh Towels and Hot Showers, would you get on the train or would you take the fight to them? And would you take the fight to them knowing that they controlled all of the vectors and tools of violence with force overwhelming to individual scale?

Indeed, our elites have changed the laws to enable the military to operate with impunity here in the "North American battleground" (yes, friends, if you are paying the least bit of attention, we are indeed the enemy), as they have likewise militarized our local police forces, complete with spiffy looking SWAT team suits, armored vehicles. and drones, as the latest invention. We have as our president the only Nobel Peace Prize winner with a personal kill list. So it may be well to say that we're living in a time where the lessons of history no longer inform what we may be able to infer about the future. All bets are off.

 

 

Ultimately, I hold with RE when he says, "save as many as you can," although we may differ about what that means. As an occupier, I believe that our presence in the streets and withholding our consent is everything that we can do. The community gardening movement is a step toward self-reliance, and teaching others to be self reliant. A self-reliant independent populace is anathema to the powers that be. But even the most psychopathic will find it difficult to dial-up a drone strike against a community garden, unless I miss my bet. Our resistance will be nonviolent, as the state has an utter and complete monopoly of the tools of violence, and a demonstrated increasing bloodthirstiness in applying them. I do not wish to make it easy for them, and have little desire to become a martyr, in a time when even bankster loan officers can murder with a pen and a computer.

Hunter S. Thompson once described himself as a "Road Man for the Lords of Karma." Since nature, or God bats last, my own view is that through education, self-reliance, and nonviolent resistance we can change a culture. The history of this society guarantees a rain of vengeance and disproportionate response on the part of the minions of the elites, in a road that runs from the Cherokee "Trail of Tears" through Logan Country through Zuccotti Park. And even if successful, the victors turn into monsters. Changing a society will take generations; generations which we may not have. Our opponents have been at this for many decades; we should not expect the quick fix.

In the coming days, each of us will need to stand up and be counted. At least I know which side I'm on.

Home Forums The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On?

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June 18, 2012 at 4:15 pm #8494

ashvin

We're gonna get a bit controversial on the TAE blog today. I know for a fact that some people will be very offended by this posting, written/compi
[See the full post at: The Orkin Man: Which Side Are You On?]

June 19, 2012 at 12:04 am #4079

Surly1

Ashvin, I think this is a good synthesis of the various viewpoints. A difficult and massive task, without a clear resolution, when every choice and outcome is disagreeable.

June 19, 2012 at 1:06 am #4082

English Memorial

The proposition is immoral because it violates the Non-Aggression Principle. Less important is that it is, of course, a plan doomed to failure, as violence ALWAYS begets further violence.

Positive change will be achieved as it has in the past (see: slavery, women’s rights) by pounding the moral argument that the universal application of the NAP is the only moral way forward for the human species, and that followed to its logical conclusions it means the complete rejection of the archaic concept of the nation-state and ALL other forms of violent coercion.

Argument from morality works if it is true, and even sometimes temporarily when it is false. It’s why the argument from morality regarding the virtue of taxing people to “help the poor” is such powerful sophistry; the moral argument is persuasive, as all moral arguments are, but it fails the test of the NAP and thus ultimately fails as a valid moral argument. Few are inclined to see or hear this obvious truth, unfortunately…. though more and more are seeking and embracing it (see: the Ron Paul movement).

We also need to stop treating our children like slaves, coercing them with threats of force and pretensions to moral superiority. I find that those who advocate violence to solve social problems like Surly (and all politicians / statists) were typically humiliated and subjected as children, as so many are (in churches, public schools, etc.), and these people CANNOT help us pave a way forward until they reclaim their true selves, reject the tyranny of illusion and false authority, and truly understand the principles of morality and philosophy that we all innately connect with.

There are others out there doing this work folks, making the arguments and mapping out the real-world implications of philosophical thought that goes back to Socrates. People like Stefan Molyneux and Adam Kokesh. You folks are going to keep spinning your wheels and taking us AWAY from peace, freedom and harmony as a species until you truly attempt to understand these issues. The philosophy and principles of freedom, defined by the universal application of the NAP and a universal respect for property rights, is already powerfully and conclusively show us the path forward.

Anything else is just wasting time and is, frankly, an embarrassment.

June 19, 2012 at 1:22 am #4084

Anonymous

Yes – I am offended by this. Once you present people as lice that we need eradicate to cleanse our houses – you cross the boundary. This is so insane that I don’t know the right language to answer this. On the technical level it is a clear invocation of scapegoating mechanism. You first choose your victim, you dehumanize it and cast all of your own sins on it, then you kill it freeing you from your own sins. This is the same as with the kulaks in the russian revolution, the Jews in Nazi Germany and the intelligence in Cambodia (as already mentioned above), it is peculiar how the Nazis (and as I read above the Red Khmers as well) used the same picture of cleansing your house from lice or rats infestation. I am sure they also believed that this was the only choice.

June 19, 2012 at 3:58 am #4089

el gallinazo

English Memorial,

I agree with much of what you write, however, I would be careful about demonizing the nation state at this particular stage of history, less you become an unwitting ally of the Illuminati Globalists, who are likewise demonizing the nation-state for a very different agenda. I, for one, would like to see the step-by-step dismantling of governmental structures from the “top” down, and starting with the UN, the IMF, the EU, NATO, BIS, and the yet to be publicly unveiled NAU (North American Union). Eventually it should reach the point of a hunter-gatherer sized community of about 100 people, where everyone knows each other well.

I used to spend time on Lake Titicaca between Peru and Bolivia. There is a group of indigenos who construct floating rafts from the local reeds usually measuring about 100 meters on a side. The Incas tried to draft them for their military, but they would become lame and useless after a couple of hours on hard, dry land. When the people had a dispute that could not be peaceably settled, they would take out a saw and cut the raft in half. The two parts would gradually drift apart. My idea of a truly human resolution.

http://tinyurl.com/6sxslm5

June 19, 2012 at 5:42 am #4090

Golden Oxen

My initial reaction to the article was one of not taking it serious, It seemed like taking out anger against the Illuminati in a harmless diatribe. Never commented on it because it appeared to be a rant with no real purpose but blowing off some steam. Since realizing belatedly the people involved are indeed serious, I feel compelled to agree with posters English Memorial and ZBY. It is indeed offensive, an embarrassment, and a complete waste of time. Are we not conversing and exchanging ideas on this forum to try and prevent this type of chaos, mayhem, and barbaric behavior from destroying all of us? This reminds me of the Charles Manson family and his famous literary masterpiece the Helter Skelter.

June 19, 2012 at 5:45 am #4091

William Hunter Duncan

So I guess my question is, if I live in the city, and my entire yard is a garden, and I know what wild foods there are and where, and I can build things, but I wear glasses, and I’m intelligent enough to know that I saw this coming, and have spent the last four years thinking and writing about it, which goon squad, or cannibals, do I have to be wary of?

http://www.offthegridmpls.blogspot.com

June 19, 2012 at 6:30 am #4093

agelbert

I really do not see much of a conflict between RE and Surly1.

I agree with both of them that our situation is untenable mainly because this is not a matter of ideology or corrupt and abusive relations between humans with power and those without; the master-slave world view is certainly something that must be dealt with but the environmental collapse that homo sapiens is engineering into the anthropocene die-off (as well a thousands of other species perishing along with Homo Sap) is the main concern.

The Orkin man metaphor may be a bit crude because it appears to be advocating genocide. I am certain that any Orwellian and mendacious VD (verbal dancer) resorting to screaming and hollering that “two wrongs don’t make a right” is avoiding the issue because the morality aspect of the problem is secondary to the utilitarian concern for the collapsing life support system on earth. That person may be attempting to cloud the issue of responsibility for the resource extraction paradigm that is destroying the ecosphere that lies squarely on the shoulders of the 1%. That person may claim that it is the masses of mankind that are causing all this and the answer to this is an ‘ethical’ population reduction of ‘useless eaters’ through conraception, one child policies, abortion, GMO mosquitos, a polluted water suppiy so ‘natural’ population control from death by dysentery and other fun events will solve the problem (Israel is doing just that to the Palestinians); The 1% and their apolgists are very good at dodging real issues that they are responsible for bringing about and laying all the blame on the 99%.

The population issue is real but we must not let it be used as a straw man to protect the 1%’s culpability. The population issue can only be addressed reasonably when we have an egalitarian society.

I propose a compromise that is morally acceptable to surly1 and RE (and, of course, myself).
When TPTB loss of centralized control that is occurring now sporadically begins to accelerate, we must advocate a world view that DOES NOT single out the 1% criminals as targets for genocide. What we must do is advocate a world view that singles out anyone that has a carbon foorprint above a sustainable level as a threat to the environment. The way to eliminate that threat is to emulate nature and USE that threat (a negative) as an asset (a positive). The barbarity aside, the silliness of Pol Pot in wanting the elite to push wheel barrows was more an exercise in vengeance and humiiation than a planned transition to a sustainable agrarian society. Stalin’s “No person ,no proplem” view of people that didn’t get with the program was counterproductive as well.

These offenders (the 1%) would be used to help bioremediate the environment. How? If you exceed your carbon footprint, then we immediately take a sufficient portion of your land or other resources and distribute it among other earthlings (not necessarily humans) that need some more living space such as endangered species as well as humans from densely populated areas that can now live someplace where they can have a decent quality of life while keeping a sustainable carbon footprint.

You do not want an underground of disgruntled elite organizing to terrorize and re-propagandize the populace into buying into the resource extraction paradigm. But, even more so, you do not want a popular blood lust and purge mentality centered on blaming an enemy instead of working to make a sustainable world. We need to use the same tools of propaganda that the elite now use but without the mendacious agenda of profit, profit, profit and the planet be damned. We need in-your-face actual history education for everybody from the cradle to the grave on what went down and why 24/7. It must be lived and breathed by the populace in a fun, Madison Avenue kind of way (without lies and distortions) permeating virtually all media involving living styles ,clothing, interpersonal realtions, etc. In the same (truthful) propaganda, snarky and continuously humorous demonization of predatory capitalist piggery must also be ubiquitous from television programs to radio on the internet or anywhere else. Think of a global version of the Daily Grist website or something like that.

The 1% ‘owns’ (stole through murder and mayhem) over 50% of everything out there that can be bought or sold. The evil these pigs do is directly proportional to their power to coopt the system of laws and human decency through the control of those resources. We free them (:>) of those assets so they can contribute to a sustainable biosphere/ ecosphere and they will have great difficulty convincing even their own offspring that the old way is better.

Strip off their assets and force them to engage in bioremediation or imprison them until they agree. While they are in prison tending duckweed ponds (grows on stagnant water and can use feces as ferilizer and grows faster than anything but algae, can be dried and burned as fuel as well as eaten and ducks love it, of course) on the wages they set up recently, we will use those resources to begin the bioremediaiton.

Pie in the sky? Perhaps. I recognize that “we” do not have the power to do this now. I recognize that the size of the cohort that defines “we” is still monstrously propagandized by the resource extraction greed is good paradigm so they would be quite willing to kill anyone wanting to disturb the pigfest. It will take a lot of pain for the “we” to be sufficiently numerous and influential to enact the reforms I mentioned. Even then there will be people who want the cathartic exercise of several heads on pikes or hanging from lamposts. We need to avoid that, not because it is immoral, but because it is not in our best interests if our goal is a sustainable society.
Remember that history books will be written about this period if we win. Think about how inspiring it will be for the young to read how we, after suffering all these depredations and watching our planet nearly be destroying by the evil of mindless greed, rather than go on a rampage of vengeance and polarization, simply used all the propaganda tools that the 1% previously misused to achieve a sustainable society. Think how this will blunt any fantasies by the descendents of the defunct elite to restore the old ‘glory, greed and gore for empire’. Their history must be their unending shame in their ancestors.

All that said, there is still the added dimension of total human existence. If our essence continues after death, then our material existence must be placed in a different context. I am a golden rule type Christian. I used to support war but I woke up around 1988. It’s wrong and killing is wrong unless it’s a kill or be killed situation. Even then, as a Christian, I can picture a situation where a Christian will allow himself to be killed without defending himself in order to blunt further bloodshed. I have not seen the inside of a church for over 20 years because I have come to the conclusion that organized “Christianity” in the U.S. is a pro-war anti-Christian propaganda front for the MIC. One can say that as soon as ‘saint’ Paul started reinterpreting the Gospels, the corruption of real Christianity began but that’s another subject.

I bring proper Chrisitian perspective into this because, in a sustainable society, the concept of proper stewardship of the environment as a type ‘mankind’s burdern’ must be discussed. We are self aware so therefore we can avoid nature’s programming and mess things up. We sure have. The distorted view of stewardhip preached by Judeo-Christian propaganda is a master-slave relationship. That is wrong and just feeds greed and justifies tyranny over nature as a gift from God rather than a responsibility to maintain the environment they same way it was when God gave us life. This responsiblity requires that we understand, whether atheist or theist, that we are a function of nature and not its master. The proper definition of our stewardship is that we are gardeners and it’s NOT our garden. It was here before we were so our duty is to tend it wisely or perish. Stewardhip is a JOB, not a privilege.

So if we win this thing, all the brainwashed “christians” with their assbackwards view of what stewardhip is will have to be re-educated along with anybody (mostly those in the Orkin man’s crosshairs) wanting to believe that humans can do whatever they want and it’s ‘okay’.

Let’s get an Orkin man that overcomes the insects and puts them to work for the environment.

June 19, 2012 at 6:55 am #4094

agelbert

Sorry for the typos. I am not trying to modify the spelling of “stewardship” into only being “hip” if it’s called “stewardhip”.

Honest! :>)

June 19, 2012 at 7:01 am #4096

ashvin

agelbert,

Excellent post. You have really hit the nail on the head, IMO, at least when it comes to your general line of thinking. If we are going to venture into ways to “deal with” the malicious elite, ways that are necessarily Idealistic at this point in time, then we must be willing to expand our minds and consider things that fall well short of genocide, but also rely on a system of punishment/coercion of the relevant offenders. Your proposal is an interesting one – plenty of flaws to be sure, but something to consider.

One of the biggest (and perhaps only) problems with OMMP, when it really comes down to it, is that Innocent people will be killed in the process of its implementation. What the elites like to call “collateral damage”. Every historical attempt at some kind of OMMP has proven that this is true and practically unavoidable. So any compromise stricken must put that issue in front and find ways to make sure it doesn’t happen. That may sound impossible, but I would propose that any compromise worth considering is only possible in so far as the goal of avoiding innocent casualties is possible.

Regarding modern the modern Judeo-Christian framework as defined by the establishment, I completely agree. And regarding our stewardship of God’s Earth as He would maintain it Himself, according to the TRUE principles of Biblical theology, I also think you are absolutely right. That’s what we must strive to do – God would not destroy the environment for short-term pleasure to the point where it became uninhabitable to any of His creatures.

Only one point of potential disagreement here:

One can say that as soon as ‘saint’ Paul started reinterpreting the Gospels, the corruption of real Christianity began but that’s another subject.

Another subject, indeed… but, if not here, then where??

I believe you are referring to the idea that Paul manipulated the records of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in his own writings to conform to his anti-Jewish and Christian view that the Law, as received by Moses, was not really relevant at all to salvation and that only faith in God was required. Frankly, I think those types of claims are over-exaggerated and mostly wrong. Most of Paul’s teachings can be shown to be quite consistent with that of Jesus as recorded by his disciples. To believe otherwise also leads down a dangerous road for Christians, in which all manner of stuff in the NT comes into question, because they have been written or influenced by the “deceitful” Paul. To be sure, he is an interesting character from those times, but in the end I think he was truly a devout follower of Jesus and therefore a Christian.

June 19, 2012 at 7:17 am #4097

damania

I think there’s a lot of fallacies and false trajectories in the article. For these psychopaths at the top, it really does come down to power and not really any ideology.

I would separate the business and political types from the intellectuals, teachers, and other egg heads. What happened was the uncorruptable were replaced with those towing the party line. Ideally, we want to keep the egg heads yet throw out the current business and political classes. But the act of throwing them out should not be the end goal. What needs to happen is the people need to be informed as to what is really going on. The overthrow will happen automatically after that.

But the real question remains, are there enough people that can be educated and want to act? Or is the human race full of people only looking out for their own selfish interests even if it means playign a zero sum game?

June 19, 2012 at 7:33 am #4098

Tao Jonesing

@English Memorial,

“The proposition is immoral because it violates the Non-Aggression Principle. Less important is that it is, of course, a plan doomed to failure, as violence ALWAYS begets further violence.”

I have to defend RE here. If you believe that the OMMP is inevitable, which RE does, morality does not factor into the equation. The only issue is whether you should do unto others before they do unto you. I don’t believe we’ve yet reached the stage where purges/genocide are inevitable, but I do think we are heading in that direction because the current immoral system is killing people every day.

Clearly, the current system’s mantra is “People Must Die So Our Fictions May Live.” Screwflation, “austerity,” bailouts — they are all about protecting the integrity of balance sheets that reflect accumulated “wealth” that does not exist in the real world and which depends entirely on perpetual exponential economic growth in a finite world. Unfortunately, this fictitious wealth is real to those who claim to own it, and they refuse to lose any of it. So, people in the real world must die so the wealthiest 0.5% of the world’s population don’t lose any points off their score.

Because that is what “wealth” becomes when you have so much of it that you can’t possibly spend it all: nothing more than a score in a video game.

The longer the current system continues, the more likely that purges/genocide become inevitable, but I think we’re years, maybe decades, away from that point. Until then, there’s no choice to make and no sense talking about the OMMP.

June 19, 2012 at 10:40 am #4103

snuffy

Ummmm,

Got some issues here I think…

Has I occurred to the participants of this discussion,That TPTB,primarily the uberwealthy who see,”The bottleneck” “The great Culling” as a “good” thing…If THEY perhaps volunteer themselves to be “The Orkin man”?…The deciders….after all,they are the Executives….the Deciders…..

Be very,very,careful what you wish for boys and girls.The fish you talk about do not have the skill to live in the wild.Good example is the goldfish..which will last about 30 seconds in a reservoir filled w/Steelhead. Same is true with those who have the skill set to survive and prosper in today’s nasty “civilization”….Such folks as do well in this”Hothouse”environment,might not do so well out in the field

English Memorial,

“Property rights”are a English,royalist POS foisted on mankind by the same folks who gave us economists,bailouts ect.Its a philosophical justification for greed….My “tribe” has my property rights….

Bee good,or
Bee careful

snuffy

June 19, 2012 at 11:46 am #4105

ashvin

Golden Oxen post=3722 wrote: It is indeed offensive, an embarrassment, and a complete waste of time.

If you could take a time machine back to 1960s Cambodia with some computer technology and the knowledge to set it all up so they can communicate with each other, and then they start talking about Mao’s “cultural revolution” in China and its potential implications for their own country and population in upcoming years, would you tell them that it’s a waste of time to do so? That this guy Pol Pot and his hardline Maoist proposals should be ignored and written off as a waste of time to even consider for more than 5 seconds?

Perhaps you would, because it is such an offensive/uncomfortable topic to entertain, but I wouldn’t. Because when PP comes to power, and I’m safely back to the future, those Cambodians will still be stuck there with no clue how they have ended up in this situation and no meaningful way of organizing/responding to at least make an attempt at preventing 25% of their numbers from being eventually wiped out. That history will soon rhyme here in the 21st century, except now we actually have the luxury of mass communication/discussion via modern technology.

What I am seeking here above all else is to understand and confront reality, all blemishes exposed, and to be honest with myself, even when it is uncomfortable. There is nothing at all embarrassing about this discussion… it must be had. Those who don’t have this discussion (along with others), IMO, will be the ones most susceptible to either becoming helpless victims of predictable history or becoming the hapless accomplices of monsters throughout this whole process we call “collapse”.

June 19, 2012 at 11:48 am #4106

agelbert

@Ashvin,
Thanks for the compliment. After reading at this site for a while (and now the Doomstead Diner too), I am impressed with the depth of thought and analysis by just about everyone here. I thoroughly enjoy the intellectual stimulation of non abbreviated (I HATE twitter) comments. In the precarious situation we find ourselves in, at length discussions should be the norm.

As to the OMMP, correct me if I am wrong, but when you speak about minimizing the death of innocents even though a lot of death is now baked in the collapsing environment ‘pie’, you are advocating a type of triage system like doctors developed on battlefields. In ER’s view, the ‘triage’ would entail dispensing with the most incorrigible members of society that fed this collapse (the 1%). In medical triage, the most severely injured are the last to be attended. In the OMMP, the comparison to triage breaks down because the poor (i.e. the innocents) will be the very ones starving, rioting and killing for resources first so they will be those dying the most. I really don’t know how that sad and unjust outcome during the upheaval can be prevented. I leave it to people like you, ER and surly1 as well as others here like El Gallinazo to come up with some workable framework on this issue. Take me, for example. I have a pacemaker with about 4 years left until I stop being a modern version of the Eveready bunny. Somehow I don’t see Medtronic and the EP (electro physiologist doctor that puts in new batteries or a new pacemaker) medical network being available to me when my battery dies. My concern is more for my wife because there are no survivor benefits on my pension. It’s hard for me to think about it so I concentrate on broader issues.

As for Paul the Apostle, I think he was a great man who was genuinely converted by Jesus Christ Himself on the road to Damascus. I don’t have a beef with him justifying the turning away of the Jews as all part of God’s plan for the gentiles to be saved but the a remnant of the Jews would get with the program at the end of the days. I don’t have any problems with salvation by faith. I agree with Paul that the commandments of the Old Testament were impossible to keep and they were given to prove that works didn’t translate to salvation. It’s when he got into the nitpicking about hairstyles and obedience and who could teach and who couldn’t that he got too “Ten Commandments new version” (i.e. Jewish Pharisee legalistic crap) for me. He went off the legalistic deep end and none of that stuff should be in the New Testament. As a matter of fact, he himself says in one or two of his epistles that he doesn’t claim Holy Spirit inspiration on this or that but the Catholic Church ate that authoritarian pariarchal stuff up and plastered Pauls writings all over the place.

Paul’s writings have their place but not in a book that is all inclusive of humanity. Paul was way too legalistic. His beautiful writings about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and also how anything done without Love isn’t worth a hill of beans are in conflct with his rather obsessive control of who he allowed to accompany him and who he passed judgement on as to fitness for effective evangelism.

I’m sure he was a better man than I am but I don’t see any comparison in universal appeal with his writings and the Gospels. No, I don’t think he tried to rewrite them. I read somewher the Gospels were targeted to the Romans (Mark) and the Greeks and Jews and other gentiles with the Doctor (Luke) being a huge influence. The Gospel of John is almost poetic when you compare it with Paul’s writings.

To tell you the truth, I never got that deep into it. I just see all the divison out there now and how the MIC apologist pastors (since Viet Nam), racists and woman haters keep using Paul’s teachings (in a twisted way most of the time, to be sure) to advance hierarchical concepts and legalisms to keep people ‘in their place’. None of that is possible in the Gospels (although some pastors certainly give it the old college try).

June 19, 2012 at 11:54 am #4107

agelbert

I did it again.When I posted Reverse Engineer’s initials, I transposed them to ER. Sorry, it shoyld have been RE. My transpositional aphasia and//or a bit of dyslexia is showing.

June 19, 2012 at 11:56 am #4108

Reverse Engineer

Repost from a response I made to WHD in the Diner Version of this debate:

RE wrote:
Welcome to the diner WHD. Lucky your middle name isn’t Michael. Then you would be WMD.

The concept that the Inquisition is coming after every last J6P is one Ashvin likes to paint, but that is not likely to be the way this one plays out.

By the time people here get riled up enough for this kind of action, the transfer of wealth will be complete and about EVERYONE except the .01% will be living in desperate poverty. At this point you are in the position of a Christoulas in Greece, with NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE

The Inquisition also cannot and will not succeed until the Failure of the Conduits, aka the Monetary system, the Electrical and Communications and Transportation Networks and the Fracture of the Big Ass Military into many competing factions all with ever less fuel and ammo to work with.

In the main, the Inquisition results from the individual Warlords wresting control from the .01%, and so this is where it will focus. So the folks who have to be concerned about this are generally the high managerial levels of major Corporations, Hedge Fund Managers, High Level Politicians and Bureaucrats and then the levels above that as they get ferreted out, beginning with the Bilderbergers and going up from there.

It will be a VERY chaotic situation overall, “anarchy” if you will for a while. Whichever side you are on, your Loyalty has to be Unquestionable, because there will be many involved in the Quisling game, and as soon as that gets even SUSPECTED of you, you will be summarily EXECUTED. This is HOW this dynamic works, regardless of all the Christian philosophy Ashvin pumps off his keyboard on a daily basis.

Ashvin has this Vision that the Highly Principled and Moral Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus and Muslims of the world are going to rise up to fight this dynamic, but he is so far wrong its not even funny. The fact is these folks will be watching their children DIE of starvation daily, they will have no opportunities for a better life and they will do what they feel they have to do to survive. They will either Line Up with the Local Warlord who will promise to get rid of their long term Oppressors, or they will join the Gestapo of the Oppressors for so long as they have working Money to pay them. Jay Gould’s 50% of the Working Class will be hired to kill the other 50%. This lasts only so long as the monetary system lasts, and perhaps not even that long.

The Inquisition results from the fact that these Warlords will be just as vicious, ruthless and cunning as the Illuminati ever were, in fact moreso because they grew up mostly on the Streets. When the Big Hardware no longer functions, the Illuminati will be EATEN ALIVE, possibly in the literal sense of that metaphor.

This dynamic likely remains a few years off here for the FSofA, possibly even decades but I doubt it. You just have to watch as one place after another cascade fails here into EXACTLY the kind of dynamic I am talking about. This is REALITY. A few more places fall into this situation, I should be able to generate a decent mathematical function to describe it also and make a better timeline prediction.

Anyhow, this is the most likely scenario I can generate up, so it’s the one I consider the wisest to prep for, in order to figure out how NOT to be caught up by one side or the other and exterminated yourself. You have to be very sensitive to the power structure as it shifts, and sense when the Herd is ready to Stampede. Because mark my words, that day is Coming Soon to a Theatre Near You.

RE

June 19, 2012 at 12:25 pm #4109

Reverse Engineer

One more thing. For those of you who have not read the full version of Unforgiven on the Diner, you cannot really argue this one with me here because as presented in this compilation by Ashvin, you get a very skewed perspective on my arguments. I will just attach in this post my closing paragraphs from Unforgiven.

RE wrote: I do not see Mass Death as avoidable at this point, and I cannot accept the alternative of allowing what is going on now to end in an Extinction Level Event either. So the only real question for me here is who lives, who dies and how you cut the losses as best you can. The only people who can do that are Orkin Men. I don’t believe there will be ONE Orkin Man of vast power and control like a Mao or Uncle Joe here, I think the society is fracturing too fast for that too organize up now. Rather I think the fractured society will breed up various Orkin Men, all with varying styles and methodology, but in the end all will be responsible for the very same thing, which is MANAGING DEATH.

If YOU were charged with this unbearable responsibility, how would YOU react, what would YOU choose to do? For me, the right meme does not come off the pages of The Bible, it comes from the Pop Culture paradigm of the Old West, personified best by Clint Eastwood in so many films, from the Spaghetti Westerns to the Unforgiven. We ARE an Unforgiven bunch as Homo Sapiens, and there really are times when a Stranger needs to Ride into Town and take out the Bad Guys.

This is one of those times, for sure.

Also, Ashvin did NOT include the Videos I presented in Unforgiven to set the stage for my arguments, and they are a very important aspect of this debate. I will add just one of them here as well. For the rest, read Unforgiven in its entirety on the Diner Blog.

Imagine YOURSELF watching the shit get kicked out of little children, or murdered in cold blood. Imagine YOURSELF being beaten to a bloody pulp here. How would YOU react to that? This is happening in Greece and Syria now AS WE SPEAK. How many kids were murdered in the latest Syrian “atrocity”? Who REALLY is responsible for that? Are you going to let them GET AWAY with that kind of shit? Not if you got an ounce of COURAGE you are not. Not IMHO anyhow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYnGLcIVLNE&feature=player_embedded

Hang em High

RE

June 19, 2012 at 12:29 pm #4110

ashvin

agelbert post=3738 wrote: As to the OMMP, correct me if I am wrong, but when you speak about minimizing the death of innocents even though a lot of death is now baked in the collapsing environment ‘pie’, you are advocating a type of triage system like doctors developed on battlefields. In ER’s view, the ‘triage’ would entail dispensing with the most incorrigible members of society that fed this collapse (the 1%). In medical triage, the most severely injured are the last to be attended. In the OMMP, the comparison to triage breaks down because the poor (i.e. the innocents) will be the very ones starving, rioting and killing for resources first so they will be those dying the most. I really don’t know how that sad and unjust outcome during the upheaval can be prevented. I leave it to people like you, ER and surly1 as well as others here like El Gallinazo to come up with some workable framework on this issue. Take me, for example. I have a pacemaker with about 4 years left until I stop being a modern version of the Eveready bunny. Somehow I don’t see Medtronic and the EP (electro physiologist doctor that puts in new batteries or a new pacemaker) medical network being available to me when my battery dies. My concern is more for my wife because there are no survivor benefits on my pension. It’s hard for me to think about it so I concentrate on broader issues.

I am sorry to hear that… but hopefully we aren’t that far gone 4 years from now. Perhaps that’s a leap of faith, though.

I am not advocating for OMMP at all – I think it’s a really bad idea for many reasons. I’ve been over the practical problems with him many times, and most of that stuff is captured by Surly’s Pol Pot analysis in the article. Even the best laid plans…

There is probably some confusion about what the OMMP actually entails for those not already familiar with RE’s writings on the idea. I think of it literally like a modern Spanish Inquisition after the “conduits”, or the monetary/energy mechanisms of elite control, have broken down. But I’ll leave it to RE to come here and explain it in more detail if he wants to.

As for Paul the Apostle, I think he was a great man who was genuinely converted by Jesus Christ Himself on the road to Damascus. I don’t have a beef with him justifying the turning away of the Jews as all part of God’s plan for the gentiles to be saved but the a remnant of the Jews would get with the program at the end of the days. I don’t have any problems with salvation by faith. I agree with Paul that the commandments of the Old Testament were impossible to keep and they were given to prove that works didn’t translate to salvation. It’s when he got into the nitpicking about hairstyles and obedience and who could teach and who couldn’t that he got too “Ten Commandments new version” (i.e. Jewish Pharisee legalistic crap) for me. He went off the legalistic deep end and none of that stuff should be in the New Testament. As a matter of fact, he himself says in one or two of his epistles that he doesn’t claim Holy Spirit inspiration on this or that but the Catholic Church ate that authoritarian pariarchal stuff up and plastered Pauls writings all over the place.

Paul’s writings have their place but not in a book that is all inclusive of humanity. Paul was way too legalistic. His beautiful writings about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and also how anything done without Love isn’t worth a hill of beans are in conflct with his rather obsessive control of who he allowed to accompany him and who he passed judgement on as to fitness for effective evangelism.

Right, I think we pretty much agree here. It’s interesting because apparently Paul is from the Tribe of Benjamin (son of Jacob) of the OT, who was quite the conflicted character. Perhaps that was “prefiguring” the life and teachings of Paul much later? Either way, we can definitely agree that the legalistic Church stuff is mostly bogus and that Paul’s doctrines, the conflicted character that he was, were ripe for being abused by the Catholic Church. Personally, I don’t even think the Pope should exist, as matter of the absence of any Biblical justifications.

June 19, 2012 at 12:52 pm #4111

ashvin

Ah, there you are RE, right on cue.

Reverse Engineer post=3741 wrote:
Imagine YOURSELF watching the shit get kicked out of little children, or murdered in cold blood. Imagine YOURSELF being beaten to a bloody pulp here. How would YOU react to that? This is happening in Greece and Syria now AS WE SPEAK. How many kids were murdered in the latest Syrian “atrocity”? Who REALLY is responsible for that? Are you going to let them GET AWAY with that kind of shit? Not if you got an ounce of COURAGE you are not. Not IMHO anyhow.

This is the biggest piece of propaganda wrapped up in the OMMP, as should be expected. RE himself admits it is being framed in pop culture terms, where the OMMP involves tough, courageous Orkin Men going around saving innocent children and women from being raped and murdered. Or perhaps you are simply defending yourself from being beaten to death…

When we think about it intellectually, though, this whole pop culture meme falls apart. What he is really describing here is a SYSTEM of people responsible for “managing death”, perhaps at the global scale which was first advocated (now it seems like more of a decentralized, localized thing for RE), which is by definition far removed from any form of immediate self-defense or defense of others. Wherever this system occurs and at whatever scale, we are talking about forcing all manner of people to abide by certain RULES of the Inquisition or be stricken down.

This could be the CEO of Goldman Sachs who is doing anything to avoid justice for his crimes against humanity or the poor guy who finds the whole thing morally repulsive. Or perhaps the innocent women and children who are forced to evacuate certain areas that are no longer suitable for them to live, according to the Inquisition’s deciders. And maybe they’re right, but they will ultimately be responsible for all those deaths. We’re talking about innocent people that will get caught up in this thing one way or the other – obviously a fact that RE likes to marginalize.

Because as soon as we accept that reality, the whole meme of courageous Clint Eastwood riding into town to wipe out the bad guys, and ONLY the bad guys, falls apart. That’s just not how it works in the real world at anything above the smallest scales of operation – never has, never will.

June 19, 2012 at 12:52 pm #4112

Reverse Engineer

ashvin post=3742 wrote:

There is probably some confusion about what the OMMP actually entails for those not already familiar with RE’s writings on the idea. I think of it literally like a modern Spanish Inquisition after the “conduits”, or the monetary/energy mechanisms of elite control, have broken down. But I’ll leave it to RE to come here and explain it in more detail if he wants to.

Done in my last 2 posts. The confusion lies in the fact you obfuscate what I write and leave out many important details. You have the objective to spin this here toward the viewpoint you hold true, you explicitly told me so in the Diner.

Ashvin wrote:
There is no way in Hell I would ever post something that comes off as pro-Inquisition or even Inquisition-neutral… it would just be very irresponsible of me in my role as a steward of I&S’ blog, and it would also offend my personal morality.

So it is up to the readers here to go over to the Diner to read the original material free of your spin. I have faith that those really interested in debating the issue with full knowledge of what was written will do so.

RE

June 19, 2012 at 1:10 pm #4113

Reverse Engineer

ashvin post=3743 wrote: We’re talking about innocent people that will get caught up in this thing one way or the other – obviously a fact that RE likes to marginalize.

Emphasis mine.

Precisely Ashvin, one way or the other, this is coming down the pipe here. Its the SAME dynamic that has played itself out many times over now through history, just this time on a way bigger scale. You think this one will be DIFFERENT? On what basis? People are much more moral now than they were when Rome collapsed? When the Romanoffs got filled full of lead in a Ruskie Basement? When Marie Antoinette’s head went rolling down the Champs d’Elysee like a Bowling Ball? We GOT RELIGION in the meantime here? What? If you think that, I put to you that you are sadly mistaken. I do NOT marginalize it either, I make it explicit that this is the nature of the beast.

Because as soon as we accept that reality, the whole meme of courageous Clint Eastwood riding into town to wipe out the bad guys, and ONLY the bad guys, falls apart. That’s just not how it works in the real world at anything above the smallest scales of operation – never has, never will.

I NEVER said the Man with No Name will wipe out ONLY the Bad Guys. I have EXPLICITLY stated on numerous occassions that you “Cannot Make an Omelette without Breaking a Few Eggs”. The collateral damage here is going to be ENORMOUS, beyond any scale ever in all of Recorded History.

This is sadly IMHO the last and final Battle for ALL THE MARBLES. Good versus Evil in the Showdown at the OK Corral. Get the Modified Winchesters ready boys and girls, you’re gonna need them.

RE

June 19, 2012 at 3:47 pm #4114

Golden Oxen

Ashvin Quote “If you could take a time machine back to 1960s Cambodia with some computer technology and the knowledge to set it all up so they can communicate with each other, and then they start talking about Mao’s “cultural revolution” in China and its potential implications for their own country and population in upcoming years, would you tell them that it’s a waste of time to do so? That this guy Pol Pot and his hardline Maoist proposals should be ignored and written off as a waste of time to even consider for more than 5 seconds? “

Your good intentions are noted and most appreciated. My personal opinion is that RE has gone off the deep end with this one, and both you and Surly, being among the brightest and respected bulbs in our meeting places, have given substance and legitimacy to this Orkin Man madness buy treating it seriously. Cynical, disillusioned with government and all of its institutions, gold hoarding crank that I have become; it is offensive to me to have the US,Europe and it’s citizen and leaders compared to Cambodia and Poll Pot. May I also object to your assertion that the end of a credit cycle and its depressing effect on the world economy, collapse as you call it, leading to this sort of mayhem is in error. The world has survived ups and downs in the business cycle with much hardship regularly, but this sort of madness arising is hardly a given. We face grave problems, no doubt about it; this sort of rhetoric is hardly the answer to them.

June 19, 2012 at 4:15 pm #4115

Reverse Engineer

Golden Oxen post=3746 wrote: My personal opinion is that RE has gone off the deep end with this one, and both you and Surly, being among the brightest and respected bulbs in our meeting places, have given substance and legitimacy to this Orkin Man madness buy treating it seriously.

I am so far off the Deep End I got no IDEA where the Shallow End you inhabit is anymore. ;)

So STUFF IT GO, along with your GOLD. :side:

You Talkin’ to ME? Nobody else here….

RE

June 19, 2012 at 4:34 pm #4117

Reverse Engineer

Before anybody gets on my case for that last post, I remind you all that if I get Napalmed (and accusing me of being “off the Deep End” IS Napalm), I practice the Chicago Way always. I’ll just light it up like Vietnam on a Summer’s Day n 1969 with commentary like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPZ6eaL3S2E

RE

June 19, 2012 at 4:50 pm #4118

Surly1

Golden Oxen post=3746 wrote: My personal opinion is that RE has gone off the deep end with this one, and both you and Surly, being among the brightest and respected bulbs in our meeting places, have given substance and legitimacy to this Orkin Man madness buy treating it seriously. Cynical, disillusioned with government and all of its institutions, gold hoarding crank that I have become; it is offensive to me to have the US,Europe and it’s citizen and leaders compared to Cambodia and Poll Pot. May I also object to your assertion that the end of a credit cycle and its depressing effect on the world economy, collapse as you call it, leading to this sort of mayhem is in error. The world has survived ups and downs in the business cycle with much hardship regularly, but this sort of madness arising is hardly a given. We face grave problems, no doubt about it; this sort of rhetoric is hardly the answer to them.

GO, several thoughts in response:
The Orkin man is a thought experiment, not a call to action. It is also a thought experiment with real world applications. As I noted in my opinion piece, I have gathered the stories, interviewed participants first-hand, and been impressed by the courage and resolve of the people who were obliged to answer the question, “Which side are you on?” This really happened, in this country, within the memories of people still alive, at least when I was a younger man. To say, in effect, “it can’t happen here” is both naïve and mistaken. It did.

The OMMP may not happen on our watch. It may be that the conduits of energy and power will flow untrammeled for the next 50 years, which will surely see most of us out. Yet when I consider the constellation of repressive laws that have been urged on our books, from the ill named Patriot Act, through the more recent NDAA, through the suspension of posse comitatus to the declaration of the “North American battleground,” I become aware, as I noted in my article, that inferring the future from the past may no longer be a viable option. This country currently enjoys a very different legal framework from that in which we grew up. Our society, even our law enforcement agencies, are far more hardened and militarized than they ever have been. Infer from that what you will; I infer potential mischief.

Here’s a thought experiment for you: Google up the number and location of FEMA sites across the country, then construct a theory as to what they are for and how they will be deployed.

Likewise, I cite Pol Pot only as a cautionary tale, to explore the implications of the monomania that, with being the “decider” in an OMMP scenario. Again, this happened within our lifetimes, on our watch, if you will. We limited. The politics so corrosive that a state legislature has taken to outlawing the use of the word “vagina” on its floor, although that will not keep them from legislating on the subject. Are we really to think that “American exceptionalism” will save us from the depredations of some future strongman on a horse? If you believe that, allow me to refer you to an excellent book by Marine Gen. Smedley Butler, “War is a Racket”, and to Howard Zinn’s remarkable “A People’s History of the United States.”

As a self-professed Christian, I tried to apply my understanding of Christianity to my behavior and motives, with varying degrees of success. That doesn’t mean that evil doesn’t exist and isn’t at this moment hard at work while we debate this theoretical. Rust never sleeps.

June 19, 2012 at 5:08 pm #4119

Reverse Engineer

Surly1 post=3750 wrote:
The Orkin man is a thought experiment, not a call to action. It is also a thought experiment with real world applications.

Hallelujah. At least one Homo Sapiens understands this. Which is of course why Surly and I coexist inside the Diner.

About nobody BESIDES Surly really grasps how I do Thought Experiments. I suppose because he saw so many of them play out on TBP and had patience to figure them out.

You CANNOT understand Human and Social Dynamics if you are not willing to play out in your mind how people actually do react to given situations. Religion does not explain this stuff. Surly is absolutely the ONLY person I ever met who really grasps this fact (despite the fact we do not draw the same conclusions).

RE

June 19, 2012 at 6:08 pm #4122

Golden Oxen

@ Surly I am in total agreement with what you write here Surly, so it has become very apparent to me that I have missed the drift and true message of what has been intended. Hardly the first time I have been in a fog with a topic. Thank you for your clarification, as mentioned earlier I had considered it a steam blowing rant at it’s inception so it is clear I was lost from the very beginning. My apologies to all for being lost. GO

June 19, 2012 at 6:22 pm #4123

Surly1

GO, no problem. I go off on impassioned tangents and often bury the lead. And, if I may lapse into seriousness for a moment, leads me to touch on the (probably well-buried) point of my post–

–that we, either ourselves or our children, will be called to answer the question, “Which Side are you On?” for real at some point. Play out RE’s thought experiment, and one finds oneself wading in the blood of innocents on all sides, with no good way to respond, and no clear choice; even pacifism caries enormous, monstrous costs. One’s response is a profoundly ethical question. How will a people long inured to distraction, with little capacity for self-reflection and less moral and ethical grounding, respond in such a case?

I am grateful to Ashvin for his thoughtfulness and courage in allowing this discussion into the “big tent” of TAE. We have a rollicking good time over at the Diner with such discussions, and often employ a sort of verbal shorthand that may easily be misunderstood. Ashvin did yeoman work in attempting to provide a context for this discussion.

June 19, 2012 at 7:05 pm #4124

Golden Oxen

@ Surly Ashvin certainly is hard working and provides us all with a prolific amount of quality writing and commentary. We sure do have a good time at the Diner, a much less formal atmosphere for sure. If only RE wouldn’t yank that rifle out so much. Have you ever wondered what the DD would be like if he were a fan of Kung Fu instead of the Rifleman when a mere lad? Wouldn’t RE make a wonderful Little Grasshopper?

June 19, 2012 at 7:30 pm #4125

scandia

This ” thought experiment ” transported me back in time to a day in high school when my history teacher arrived wearing a black armband. It was when Russia invaded and occupied Hungary. He uttered the phrase ” Better eed than dead “. Quite a problem for my teen-age mind to contemplate. I’ve been a world watcher since that day and am still uncertain as to what I will do. I do see myself working for the resistance but in what role?

June 19, 2012 at 7:49 pm #4127

TheTrivium4TW

Hi All, first of all, we *really* need to stop pretending guys like Pol Pot and Mao were doing anything for the “little people” other than dominating them for their own selfish purposes.

“Pol Pot whose efforts to form a Communist peasant farming society…”

Uh, no. Pol Pot wasn’t “Communist” any more than Hitler was “National Socialist.”

Pol Pot set up an authoritarian oligarchical dictatorship that DOMINATED the peasants they didn’t outright murder.

Second, I don’t think this is that complex – just apply the rule of law. Those people who committed fraud… including the people who set up the fraudulent Federal Reserve System societal wealth conveyance fraud…

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3325954/debt-dollar-tyranny-2-54k?tr=77

We also need to confiscate the ill gotten wealth of Big Finance Capital at the top of that flow chart so that society’s monetary assets balance out with society’s debt AND unstrap the debt “vest” from the debt money tyranny “terrorist” Federal Reserve System Big Finance Capital Trojan Horse.

and the people who systematically broke Section 2A of the Federal Reserve Act and lied about it in order to provide cover for their know legal activity need to be charged with criminal fraud as well.

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3324744/wmdebt-graph-3-79k?tr=77

All the bankers that perpetrated fraud, all the ratings agencies that perpetrated fraud on down the line ALL get prosecuted and those found guilty get the appropriate punishment for their crime.

All the false documents filed in foreclosure have felony perjury charges waiting to be filed.

I don’t support anything that takes out innocents… we need to simply apply the rule of law against those “animals” that have proclaimed themselves “more equal” than the rest of us through their actions.

Of course, this will never happen so long as the typical citizen is in a narcissistic induced, false reality stupor.

You can’t solve a problem when you have NO IDEA what that problem is. The first step is to define the problem… and when I do that, more than 9 out of 10 people have a visceral reaction and essentially run away. No debate, no sharing of thoughts, no dialogue, no critique… just covers pulled over the eyes as though that is gonna keep the bad men away.

June 19, 2012 at 8:26 pm #4128

Justin_n_IL

Concerning Paul remember what Peter said about him.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

June 19, 2012 at 8:46 pm #4129

Candace

So how about this model if you are talking about after the wheels fall off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_reconciliation_commission

June 19, 2012 at 8:55 pm #4130

Surly1

TheTrivium4TW post=3759 wrote: Hi All, first of all, we *really* need to stop pretending guys like Pol Pot and Mao were doing anything for the “little people” other than dominating them for their own selfish purposes.

“Pol Pot whose efforts to form a Communist peasant farming society…”

Uh, no. Pol Pot wasn’t “Communist” any more than Hitler was “National Socialist.”

Pol Pot set up an authoritarian oligarchical dictatorship that DOMINATED the peasants they didn’t outright murder.

Second, I don’t think this is that complex – just apply the rule of law. Those people who committed fraud… including the people who set up the fraudulent Federal Reserve System societal wealth conveyance fraud…

Uh, not sure what article you were reading, as no one is “pretending” anything; I do not disagree with your conclusion– the Khmer Rouge called themselves “Communist,” a designation which proved to be as meaningful as, say, “Republican” is today. The nomenclature made no difference to those trapped in the Killing Fields.

As for “applying the rule of law,” the “law” has been bent out of shape by obliging, bought-and-paid-for legislators who peddle their souls, as well as the public trust, to the highest bidder, and who cut the legislation to order for their clients. Jail who? For what? On what legal basis? Those who fail to get with the program face limited sources of campaign cash for their re-election campaigns, plus the opprobrium of a handful of oligarchs (think Koch Brothers.)

I am reminded that the Third Reich assumed power perfectly legally as well.

June 19, 2012 at 9:33 pm #4133

ashvin

Reverse Engineer post=3745 wrote: [quote=ashvin post=3743]
I NEVER said the Man with No Name will wipe out ONLY the Bad Guys. I have EXPLICITLY stated on numerous occassions that you “Cannot Make an Omelette without Breaking a Few Eggs”. The collateral damage here is going to be ENORMOUS, beyond any scale ever in all of Recorded History.

This is sadly IMHO the last and final Battle for ALL THE MARBLES. Good versus Evil in the Showdown at the OK Corral. Get the Modified Winchesters ready boys and girls, you’re gonna need them.

I know you never said that, so stop using that BS meme as some kind of mixer for the hard spirits you’re selling us. You do it again right below – “good versus evil in the showdown at the OK corral”… uh, no, the self-proclaimed righteous versus anyone and anything that doesn’t fall in the same camp, including innocent men, women and children, in the entrenched warfare across the world. The innocent will die at the hands of both the Elite and the OMMP – the meme fails to reflect this fact at all. I guess you can keep using it, RE, but no one’s buying it.

About nobody BESIDES Surly really grasps how I do Thought Experiments. I suppose because he saw so many of them play out on TBP and had patience to figure them out.

You CANNOT understand Human and Social Dynamics if you are not willing to play out in your mind how people actually do react to given situations. Religion does not explain this stuff. Surly is absolutely the ONLY person I ever met who really grasps this fact (despite the fact we do not draw the same conclusions).

Of course it’s a thought experiment (it hasn’t happened yet)… about how you would go about making a call to action when the time presents itself during phases of collapse, and what that “action” would actually entail. Now even if you are just playing Devil’s Advocate here, there is no reason for us not to treat your arguments as if you actually believe them 100% and are committed to them. So that’s what I’m doing… but my understanding is that this is much more than Advocate for the Devil with you.

When you say religion, I’m assuming you mean any form of spirituality, rather than organized religion. In which case, it is plainly absurd to say that spirituality will not affect human and social dynamics when reacting to tough physical situations. History is replete with examples of people doing just that; a guy named Jesus comes to mind… But many others before and after him as well.

Your problem here in this argument is that you are simply assuming that various forms of spirituality, and the ethical/moral realities stemming from them, are FALSE and act as window dressing or comforters for most people in good times, and therefore assuming that they will no longer apply in bad times. That is circular reasoning at its finest. Believe it or not, there are people who take their spirituality very seriously, good times and bad alike. People who are no more willing to stampede with your OMMP than they are with the Gestapo of the current order. Perhaps because they can see through the false framework of utilitarian morality that you have defined for them.

You say there numbers will be few, I say, maybe or maybe not (we can’t be certain), but it doesn’t matter either way. The principles of their morality are relevant to this discussion no matter how you try to circumvent or marginalize them. Because this debate ultimately boils down to the best ways for us, as individuals, to react in very precarious and oppressive times when confronted with herd animals running in all manner of directions, and we all have the free will to decide for ourselves according to our beliefs.

Precisely Ashvin, one way or the other, this is coming down the pipe here. Its the SAME dynamic that has played itself out many times over now through history, just this time on a way bigger scale. You think this one will be DIFFERENT? On what basis?

The issue for me isn’t whether it will come down the pipeline this time or not. I am willing to accept something resembling the OMMP as a very like outcome, and I not using morality as a reason for why it will be stopped. The morality of all this comes in when you say “Well… innocent people are going to die if I do nothing, so that means I am justified in killing innocent people as a part of a plan to save others”. This is a position that is ubiquitously admonished in various faiths, and for very good reason, both spiritual and PRACTICAL. And we are not even really talking about faiths that are fundamentally against capital punishment… we are talking about thousands of years of historical development in which certain observers, some more wise than others, have come to the conclusion that what you are advocating is a horrible path to go down, no matter how bad the alternative is, and recent history has proven their concerns justified.

June 19, 2012 at 10:22 pm #4134

ashvin

Reverse Engineer post=3744 wrote: Done in my last 2 posts. The confusion lies in the fact you obfuscate what I write and leave out many important details. You have the objective to spin this here toward the viewpoint you hold true, you explicitly told me so in the Diner.

[quote=Ashvin]
There is no way in Hell I would ever post something that comes off as pro-Inquisition or even Inquisition-neutral… it would just be very irresponsible of me in my role as a steward of I&S’ blog, and it would also offend my personal morality.

So it is up to the readers here to go over to the Diner to read the original material free of your spin. I have faith that those really interested in debating the issue with full knowledge of what was written will do so.

RE

If you’re going to resort to such misleading tactics to make your case, then I am forced to respond. Right after I made that comment, you said this…

I have no problem with how you packaged it Ashvin, I’m just making the observation that packaged as is it won’t get a whole lot of commentary.

But your first comment to me on TAE, quoted above, would imply that you DO have a problem with my packaging… so you were obviously trying to express a false sense of frustration here. Nice try. The reason why you would not be justified in having any problem with my packaging is because, when asking permission to re-post the material, I made it explicitly conditional on my packaging it the way I did. Surly agreed and so did YOU.

Your real problem here, of course, is that we HAVE gotten a good deal of commentary, and most of it has come down harshly against you and your argument. You didn’t even respond to agelbert, who presented a very interesting alternative to your Orkin Man approach that doesn’t involve mass killings. What can I say… people here are smart and wise enough to sort through the issues for themselves and resist your attempts to bully them into a corner.

June 19, 2012 at 11:16 pm #4137

el gallinazo

When one person jerks off it is masturbation. When a whole bunch of guys help each other, it’s a circle jerk. Speaking figuratively of course.

Einstein once famously noted that doing something over and over again but always expecting a different outcome is a functional definition of insanity. The Orkin Man solution has been tried since the start of conventional recorded history. OTOH, if the “doers” are pleased and satisfied with the outcome and have no desire for a different one, that is a different kettle of fish.

I read an article a couple of years ago dealing with the Greek protests turning violent. The author, a reporter, would single out the most violent of the protesters repeatedly and then discreetly tailed him afterwards. Strangely enough, it always lead back to a police station. I was shocked, shocked I tell you!

June 19, 2012 at 11:44 pm #4138

davefairtex

This whole debate reminds me of a game a friend of mine used to play with me. His goal was to find the single two most unattractive people in a crowd, and then ask me, gun to my head, which one would I pick to have sex with.

Perhaps I could choose a third outcome? No, that wasn’t the game.

It is often the case that after any violent revolution, the moderates – and moderate policies – don’t end up in charge when all is said and done. Things quickly move from “a few broken eggs” of moderate collateral damage to “anyone who opposes The Orkin Man” and then finally “anyone who doesn’t enthusiastically SUPPORT the Orkin Man” get put up against the wall and shot. This makes logical sense to me; moderates on both sides end up shot or withdrawing in disgust, so much so that one particular group of crazies willing to kill (or die) for their cause ends up winning, eventually. The Taliban is just the latest version of this.

This doesn’t happen every time people start in with summary executions, but it happens often enough to give me pause, and suggest that instead of choosing between two really undesirable choices, we search hard for a third route and play a different game. Rewrite the No-Win-Scenario, as it were.

Otherwise, regardless of original intent, we will in all likelihood end up with a Christian version of Mullah Omar in charge; all the “right people” will be dead or in a camp along with a vast host of others, but neither you nor I will be defining who the “right people” are.

June 20, 2012 at 12:16 am #4140

m111ark

Ya’ well, understanding the problem is in short supply.

As I see it: Problems are opportunities to learn, and isn’t that at least one reason we’re here? If our universe overseers actually saw an extinction level event on the horizon, don’t you think they would take action to head off such an event? Since they have not, at least not yet, then they must trust us to solve these many problems on our own.

Killing the bad guys, when the bad guys are so obviously bad, in a one horse town makes for an satisfying movie, but, it’s just a movie, entertainment, not to be taken seriously by serious people. We face an infinitely larger collection of issues, not entirely amenable to simply killing off the “bad guys,” pleasing and rewarding as that may be(and were such a thing possible I would gladly join in the fun of hunting them down and providing them with citizen justice.)

But, that would not “solve” our many issues. Those of us who like to think we actually understand what’s going on are a very tiny minority of our citizens. How will it look to those who just don’t get it? Are you willing to rob them of their chance to learn to recognize the truth of our existence?

Even here, I rarely see mention of the ponzi nature of our monetary system, and, I never see the consequences of a monetary system that is a fraud upon the people. Nor even a hint of the damage to the soul of a system where fraud, abuse of power,theft, murder, etc. are inevitable under a fraudulent monetary system. And, all things evil we see are the result of a monetary system DESIGNED to make slaves of the 99% while enriching the 1/10th of one percent. Simply removing the “evil doers” does nothing to advance civilized society.

I am a relative newcomer to these discussions, but have been following events since my own awakening some 8 years ago. Thankfully, I had many years of reading The Urantia Book to lay the foundation for seeking truthful answers to questions. We are not here to make everything right according to the way we understand things to be for we are most surely wrong. We(all of us) are off on a 1000 year adventure of confronting problems and seeking truthful answers. If you wish to be part of the solutions that eventually emerge, seek to be a better person, one with a sincere desire to live a truth seeking life; it’s the most that each of us can do.

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