wrighttracks
Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Overshoot is part of the issue. While it is true Diablo, the infrastructure has been destroyed, maintaining it and rebuilding it cost energy and money. Syria’s population was growing at 2.6% a year, or doubling every 35 years. I suspect the country does not have the wealth to actually accommodate that many people in a comfortable way any more than Egypt does. Each country is a space station in a certain sense, the resources run out and the people die—or they migrate.
Yes, there are rouge elements adding to the problem but drought and the movement of folks from the rural areas to cities created an unstable condition, one that could easily foster disruption and civil wars. This, I am afraid, is now a never ending problem one that Europe will not be able to solve.
It is also true the amount of money squandered doing obviously very stupid things is unimaginable. That I can not argue. Using that money wisely certainly would have helped. The world’s wealth is shrinking and the ability to maintain the unmaintainable is becoming obvious.
Raul: I understand your compassion and the tragedy we see every day is unexceptionable. The EU well may dismantle but that will only make matters worse because borders will be closed, and I don’t think some countries will do it nicely. Also many of the countries there are suffering badly now, more migrants only make their lives worse. I now suspect there are no solutions where everything turns out well. There simply are not enough resources to take care of every one. Unfortunately, as you have noted before, energy supplies will one day decline, if not already happening, and then these issue become compounded. The people of Greece are already cutting down their forests for heating—they can’t afford fuel.
I do believe you are insightful and I enjoy this presentation but there is a certain reality here, in Europe and really the world, that is beginning to become unsettling. Nicole, and I have heard and talked to her, has gone over this unfolding tragedy many, many times. This is part of the unraveling. The most unstable will be victimized first. My thoughts are with you and I know your feelings are correct. Stay strong.
I closely read what you have said and find it passionate and well informed. However, sitting over here in the states it is difficult for me to understand just what the hell is actually going to happen in Europe. Syria is in severe overshoot and hit by drought, not to mention gun totting troops and planes from all over the world. As pointed out in Limits to Growth and Caton’s, Overshoot, when the situation becomes dire, people migrate. So far only 4-5 million have left the country of some 25 million. They all would like to go to Europe, and one can not blame them. However, Europe is also “filled” and probably facing a deflationary recession (may be there already). Why would they want to take more people? Are they not sovereign nations? To top it off, the middle east is a powder keg filled with countries in overshoot, Egypt being the most obvious. What happens when they want to migrate? Offer me a solution rather than just being critical of the EU and member states. This is a mess beyond imagination, one that can only get ugly (Le Pen and many more of that ilk). What would you do if you were king?
Where the hell does one go with this discussion? We have a situation that has been caused by a multitude of factors, many of which have be eluded to in this tread. Can’t really deny most of them—and still keeping in mind that some of the problems are self induced. It is not like the countries of the Middle East and North Africa are not without some blame as the religious bickering goes back hundreds of years. Then too, we must look at the elephant in the environmentally depleted landscape, and realize that just maybe there are too many people living in place that can no longer support them. When a country has a population growth rate of over 3% (until just recently) it should be obvious it is just a matter of time before floods of people begin moving to greener pastures— migration. Some one please tell me why we can not talk about this? What in hell is any country to do when millions of migrants are at their doors. Don’t tell me, just let them all in. Then their problem becomes your problem—and it is really a problem when the new arrivals bring a high birth rate with them. . Talk to me!
Supra: Nice assemblage of words that I would say are pretty much on the money (after a little interpretation). Yes, what we are seeing and will continue to see is the exceeding of carrying capacity commonly known as overshoot. Canton has pointed this out many times as did the Club of Rome in Limits to Growth. The sad part of it is this is just the beginning. The likelihood of generating a conversation on the topic is minimal at best as the topic is off-limits because of the implications to a very harsh reality. We are, I suspect, just observers watching the theatrics of many stripes of the human face.
While agree on many levels with most of what is being said both in the initial piece and the comments, I have some additional considerations that I believe need further discussions. Yes, Neo Liberalism and the debt-money monopolist have a hand in this mess, and it goes farther than that, all of it very complex and none of it discussed in the MSM. It is just off limits, sad as that may be. As long as those same individuals, the Neo Liberals, control the media it will remain that way.
However, there is another issue, another problem, here that is also not being discussed. The world is facing situations that did not exist even a few decades ago, say, during a time when the imperialist were most active in this region—not that they are out of the picture now, particularly in the oil producing states. The greater issue now, but not the only issue, is almost more connected to the problem of carrying capacity of the land. Many of these nations in North Africa and the Middle East simply have too many people to be cared for through their own efforts. They are running out of agriculture land due to droughts, warring, crowding and salable commodities. The can not support their populations without outside help. This in turn, as is the case throughout history, is were populations start to migrate to lands more capable of providing a living. All species of animals do this.
The disturbing part of the situation is we are just seeing the beginning of this movement. Egypt has some 90 million souls, has the ability to feed maybe 20 million, has little to export now that the oil is depleted and the gas is slowing down. There are untold amounts of unemployed youth who will ultimately look for solutions and one of them well may be migration. This situation is rampant in many areas of the world as can be seen from Mexico to Indonesia. This is one hell of a mess.
It is easy to see why Europe is responding the way they are as they can look down the road and see a situation that is very unsettling. While the issue of over-shoot is not in the news it is, I am sure, on peoples minds even if they do not have a name for it. Where will this thing end? Some will say we must seek stability in the regions and supply food stuffs but if the populations continue to expand all that is being done is kicking the can down the road to a time when more and more run out of necessities. I repeat this is one hell of a mess that goes beyond Neo-Liberal manipulations. I would like to know what people think on this issue?
