Discovering the "End" in "Extend & Pretend"
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GREAT Header Pic there Ashvin! Where do you guys go to dig up these pics? Any particular archive I should be pilfering from?
Far as Tspiras goes, one hopes he is wearing Body Armor all the time and avoids small and large planes, limousines and restaurants.
RE
Reverse Engineer post=2876 wrote: GREAT Header Pic there Ashvin! Where do you guys go to dig up these pics? Any particular archive I should be pilfering from?
Far as Tspiras goes, one hopes he is wearing Body Armor all the time and avoids small and large planes, limousines and restaurants.
RE
The pic is from Shorpy. Although… it’s kind of a TAE THING started by I&S.
Elimination of political leaders probably wouldn’t do much good here. Perhaps it would provide some very short-term relief, but it is really the anti-austerity mentality that has now taken root across Europe, and that’s something that cannot be whacked. Hell, a suspicious killing of Tspiras may just make it stronger.
ashvin post=2880 wrote:
Elimination of political leaders probably wouldn’t do much good here. Perhaps it would provide some very short-term relief, but it is really the anti-austerity mentality that has now taken root across Europe, and that’s something that cannot be whacked. Hell, a suspicious killing of Tspiras may just make it stronger.Hi Ash, that’s why systemic control is so important.
It doesn’t matter what the Greeks want or think now, they are under control of the financial oligarchs.
Even if they leave the Euro, they are toast. They will impoverish their savers and the Big Finance Capital oligarchs likely won’t sell them oil or, if they do, it will be for an arm and a leg.
The only real chance we have is to identify who the real criminals are (you know, the “authorities”), put them in jail and set up sovereign nation states that each have the ability to issue their own currency within certain limits.
If I’ve missed something here, do share the details of how wishing austerity will go away will actually make it go away.
BTW, humanity has to wake up to the fact that they can’t rob future generations forever. The people are nearly as bad as the oligarchs, they just don’t have the power to inflict their selfishness onto the others that the banksters have attained.
It’s a cesspool of greed (selfishness).
BTW, did Marx reject “communism” after predicting evil dictators would take control (Stalin and Mao) or did he have his own gaping blind spot as well?
TheTrivium4TW post=2882 wrote: Even if they leave the Euro, they are toast. They will impoverish their savers and the Big Finance Capital oligarchs likely won’t sell them oil or, if they do, it will be for an arm and a leg.
When Greece exits the EZ, it will reflect a loss of control among the Western elites, no matter what actually ends up happening in Greece. The popular/political resistance to the Eurocratic agenda is not only a Greek phenomenon anymore, but is popping up all over the Union. I am not claiming that any of it is a “solution” or a clear path to freedom, but it is a reality that cannot be ignored and I do think that it is clearly OUTSIDE of the NWO agenda.
Yes, they will punish Greece severely to set an example (through capital/trade/emigration restrictions), but that kind of deterrent does not work well with other populations when they have little left to lose anyway. It’s the same reason why the death penalty (Greece) does not really act as a deterrent in places with the penalty of life in prison (everywhere else). I am confident that the Greek exit and its resulting economic, financial, political and psychosocial effects will be a very big blow to BFC.
BTW, did Marx reject “communism” after predicting evil dictators would take control (Stalin and Mao) or did he have his own gaping blind spot as well?
I’m not what you mean here. He never rejected Communism or predicted “evil dictators” would take control of anything. He believed the workers of the world would unite and create a “dictatorship of the proletariat”, with all means of production owned collectively through the State. Although, he was upset with some of the so-called Socialist movements that took hold while he was alive (obviously not Stalin or Mao, as they came after he died). He is said to have remarked, “If that is Socialism, then I am not a Socialist”, or something like that.
ashvin post=2880 wrote:
Elimination of political leaders probably wouldn’t do much good here. Perhaps it would provide some very short-term relief, but it is really the anti-austerity mentality that has now taken root across Europe, and that’s something that cannot be whacked. Hell, a suspicious killing of Tspiras may just make it stronger.
Assassinations are always good for pushing the situation over the cliff. think Archduke Ferdinand.
In this case, it would solve the Greek Economic problems by starting a full scale Civil War inside of Greece, likely to spread pretty rapidly into Spain.
If the Illuminati feel like they are losing control on the Economic level, the logical alternative for them is to start a War. At least, that has always been the methodology.
ashvin post=2883 wrote:
BTW, did Marx reject “communism” after predicting evil dictators would take control (Stalin and Mao) or did he have his own gaping blind spot as well?
I’m not what you mean here. He never rejected Communism or predicted “evil dictators” would take control of anything. He believed the workers of the world would unite and create a “dictatorship of the proletariat”, with all means of production owned collectively through the State. Although, he was upset with some of the so-called Socialist movements that took hold while he was alive (obviously not Stalin or Mao, as they came after he died). He is said to have remarked, “If that is Socialism, then I am not a Socialist”, or something like that.
Remarkably few people grasp that neither the Soviet Union or China were “Communist” at all, any more than the FSofA was ever a “Free Market Democracy” either. The education system and media on this side of the line has so thoroughly identified all things “Communist” as being associated with Mao and Stalin that few people will even listen to a Communist argument without bringing them up.
These theoretical concepts have never existed in reality, anymore than there has ever been a Utopia. Basically all societies since before Babylon have been run by the Illuminati. The political systems are just Window Dressing.
RE
Americans look at Europe’s problems with something of a ‘it can’t happen here’ POV but I think it can happen here. We have some very large states with immense budget problems and, just like the PIIGS, they are losing competitiveness to states that don’t have their debt problems. Think California vs Texas or Illinois vs Ohio.
If this situation goes on for a few more years where states like California and Illinois state budgets continue to deteriorate, taxes are raised to stem the red ink and business and high income taxpayers relocate to escape the situation what’s to prevent our PIG states to be in the same situation as Greece or Spain. These states could be frozen out of the bond market or face ultra high interest rates to roll over their debt. Deep cuts in state and local government programs and payrolls that exacerbate their decline and a reluctance of other states to bail out their pension obligations or extend Federal help to them.
TheTrivium4TW post=2882 wrote:
If I’ve missed something here, do share the details of how wishing austerity will go away will actually make it go away.What austerity? Don’t get me wrong. I’m not an evil goon, and I have a tonne of sympathy for folks that want to work, but can’t find any. I not trying to play word games, but I wouldn’t call high unemployment ‘austerity’, in and of itself.
When I think of ‘austerity’, I think of a worthless Greek government bureaucrat that does no work getting fired. Or a Greek millionaire paying just half the tax his American counterpart would pay. That hasn’t happened, yet. But it will when they go off the Euro.
Massive austerity in the West is inevitable, regardless of what the handlers want. All the easy to produce oil has been produced. Interest rates have been cut to zero. Our factories have been exported to the low cost producer, China. We’re at the end of the line.
The title to the article says it all.There’s no way out. People that don’t work, historically don’t eat. I’m not against food stamps, but it is not a good sign that 1/7 of the USA population receives them.
Another great TAE article that cuts to the chase, Ash.
I was confounded by the Spiegel article when I read it on Zero Hedge. It made no sense to me that the EU would continue to financially support Greece even after an exit. At least, it made no sense given the players involved. Because of course a humanitarian EU would indeed continue to help Greece for many reasons, not the least of which is that they’d have a starving population next door, with all the inherent risks of civil war so close to other populations, which is just no good at all. But we aren’t talking about humanitarians here are we.
Indeed, I fully expect the exact OPPOSITE of Spiegel’s article. If Greece is first to leave, the EU will strike down upon Greece with great vengeance and furious anger so as to make a very clear example to any other peripheral country thinking of exiting next. No matter what, an exit MUST appear to be the truly WRONG thing to do. No matter what route Greece chooses in an exit, the EU will make it exorbitantly difficult on Greece. The EU will welcome civil war in Greek borders because then they can say to Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland (and France?!), “see what happens if you leave!”
It seems to me that when you have a single monetary instrument covering a bunch of at least allegedly democratic governments iwth their own policies then the people fundamentally become the enemies of the central bankers.
I don’t believe the Euro can survive. But this is an interesting development because without the Euro, there are even fewer good alternatives for a world reserve currency to the USD, so the European debt crisis may be a good thing for a while for the US.
einhverfr,
Do check out Charles Hugh Smith’s latest, in which he persuasively argues that Greece’s best option may be at least a temporary adoption of the US dollar:
skipbreakfast post=2894 wrote: einhverfr,
Do check out Charles Hugh Smith’s latest, in which he persuasively argues that Greece’s best option may be at least a temporary adoption of the US dollar:
Adoption of the FSofA Dollar is MORE than likely in the Black Market as it develops in Greece, but the Greeks can’t pay their Civil Service Workers in this Toilet Paper. The Greek Goobermint doesn’t have a direct line to Da Fed like JPMC does. They can’t Swap Worthless “Collateral” for FRNs.
The Greeks can “earn” some Dollars by selling Olives and Feta Cheese, but they cannot earn ENOUGH Dollars this way to keep all the Lights On and the Carz and Trainz running. In fact, they will probably need to keep all their Olives and Feta Cheese inside Greece anyhow just to feed the population, so exporting this stuff will be difficult.
The only real way the Greeks might earn Dollars is throught he Tourist Trade, but how many Amerikan Touristas are going to go visit the Parthenon when there are Food Riots in the Streets of Athens? Especially once the Lights go Out int he Hotels, Greece is not going to be a spectacular Tourist Destination. It would sorta be like taking a vacation in Kabul or Damascus.
RE
RE,
In 1999, the Ecuadorian governent ditched their currency and went to the USD as their national currency. The exit would be very simple, if Greece initiated it. People just convert their current Euros into USD, and this means that the Greek government ties their currency to a central back attached to an actual governmetn, and that the IMF cannot use currency policy as a bargaining tool.
They can then start to use strategic, partial defaults to reduce their debt load.
All of the above will take time though.
Keep in mind that “money” is mostly a matter of accounting entries in banks. Actual cash is a small part of the money supply.
einhverfr post=2898 wrote: RE,
In 1999, the Ecuadorian governent ditched their currency and went to the USD as their national currency. The exit would be very simple, if Greece initiated it. People just convert their current Euros into USD, and this means that the Greek government ties their currency to a central back attached to an actual governmetn, and that the IMF cannot use currency policy as a bargaining tool.
They can then start to use strategic, partial defaults to reduce their debt load.
All of the above will take time though.
Keep in mind that “money” is mostly a matter of accounting entries in banks. Actual cash is a small part of the money supply.
What was the total Debt Load of the Ecuadorian Goobermint in1999 when they made this shift? I suspect it was a whole lot less than the Greeks Owe.
Second, while I see how it is quite possible for Greeks who have some Euro Savings to convert them NOW to Dollars, I don’t see how the Greek Goobermint can pay any of its workers in Dollars. My guess with the Ecuadorian Goobermint and its Civil Service structure was that it was a whole lot smaller than Greece’s structure. They also likely did not have the massive Pension Obligations the Greek Goobermint has.
I do not think Ecuador provides a good model here for the Greeks to follow. Ecuador was not a nominally “industrialized” country and part of the Eurozone travesty of MASSIVE accumulations of Debt to Finance an unsustainable infrastructure. Ecuador doesn’t have the dependence on Oil and Carz that Greece has as a result of decades of building up an automotive based economy.
Of course in the grand scheme of things, Greece itself is still Small Potatoes, though a pretty Big Potato compared to Ecuador. Compared to Spain hitting the Wall though, Greece is nothing.
RE
pipefit:
I’ll assume you’re not a troll (even though the claim you can’t find anyone who wants to work is pretty suspect), and merely suggest that what you picture as austerity is just your own misconception. To remedy it, I offer here some examples of measures which fall under that term, and you can figure out for yourself which of them have been implemented or proposed and where:
— Firing teachers and increasing class size.
— Cutting funding to public universities.
— Cutting pensions for people who have no other income.
— Raising the retirement age when there are already too many people for the jobs available.
— Decreasing the minimum wage.
— Large increases in utility prices.
— Cutting funding for health services.
— Cutting unemployment benefits.
— Increasing sales tax (which is generally regressive).
— Freezing public sector salaries in the face of inflation.Now, I’m sure there are plenty of bureaucrats getting paid to do nothing. But that’s neither here nor there. If you can find a way to make the public sector (or the private sector) more efficient, that’d be great (if it were implemented). But that is absolutely not what austerity is about.
I’m with you when it comes to peak oil, but what it’s going to lead to ultimately is a collapse of capitalism, because capitalism requires growth. Austerity will be attempted to drag it out, but it always leads to trouble, and collapse is inevitable. The sooner the better, I think.
RE: I think you have to ask realistically what options are open to the Greeks and what the costs are.
1) They can stay with the Euro, and continue to deal with the question of democracy being secondary to the policy preferences of central bankers……
2) They can re-issue the Drachma, see hyperinflation, and have to deal with IMF demands regarding monetary policy…..
3) Or they can go with the US Dollar. Buy dollars on the open market in exchange for Euros.
I think you would be right as to the problems with #3 if this was still 1999. However, a lot has changed regarding US monetary policy in the last ten years, and in particular we have seen a shift from a strong dollar policy to a weak dollar policy. A conversion to USD would mean a strong uptake in the demand for dollars which strengthens the currency. The result is that the fed has to create more money to weaken it again. I don’t see a downside here for Greece, and I see the US as more or less having to accommodate Greek wishes here because failure to do so undermines current US currency policy……
RE, you were seeking to compare Ecuadorian debt to Greek debt. Keep in mind that both countries would be essentially repudiating all their debt, period. CH Smith notes in his article that the plan is dependant on a total 100% repudation of debt. By adopting the US dollar, it gives the Greeks some time to rebuild without being totally hyper-inflated into non-existence. At the moment, if they were quick, the Greeks could convert all their Euros to Dollars at a very reasonable exchange rate, all things considered!
YesMaybe post=2900 wrote: pipefit:
I’ll assume you’re not a troll (even though the claim you can’t find anyone who wants to work is pretty suspect), and merely suggest that what you picture as austerity is just your own misconception. To remedy it, I offer here some examples of measures which fall under that term, and you can figure out for yourself which of them have been implemented or proposed and where:
— Firing teachers and increasing class size.
— Cutting funding to public universities.
— Cutting pensions for people who have no other income.
— Raising the retirement age when there are already too many people for the jobs available.
— Decreasing the minimum wage.
— Large increases in utility prices.
— Cutting funding for health services.
— Cutting unemployment benefits.
— Increasing sales tax (which is generally regressive).
— Freezing public sector salaries in the face of inflation.I said that I had sympathy for folks that want work, but can’t find it. But if a Greek garment maker can’t compete with a Chinese counterpart making a dollar of two per day, that is not ‘austerity’, at least in terms of what the Germans are asking of Greece. That is ‘globalization’ in play.
You are trying to oversimplify the Greek problem, and that is why you are so off base. Yes, the Greeks are suffering, due to globalization, just like the USA. But the Germans aren’t focusing on that. In fact, the Germans can probably sympathize with Greek businessmen that are undercut by Chinese low wage workers. Rather, the Germans are focusing on the gravy train of PUBLIC sector bureaucratic workers that are sucking at the public teat (not teachers). And Greek millionaires that aren’t paying taxes.
This is why Greece hasn’t left the Euro. Once they leave the Euro, Greece will descend into chaos as they rape their millionaires, or the latter attempt to escape the country, or there is some sort of civil war, with the wealthy protected by paid militias.
Greece just had a historic election. Where is the talk of ‘tax the rich’ to pay for starving people that are out of work? They are hinting at leaving the euro, but they haven’t done so yet. That is what will set off ‘austerity’, over and above the punishment of globalization.
skipbreakfast post=2907 wrote: RE, you were seeking to compare Ecuadorian debt to Greek debt. Keep in mind that both countries would be essentially repudiating all their debt, period. CH Smith notes in his article that the plan is dependant on a total 100% repudation of debt. By adopting the US dollar, it gives the Greeks some time to rebuild without being totally hyper-inflated into non-existence. At the moment, if they were quick, the Greeks could convert all their Euros to Dollars at a very reasonable exchange rate, all things considered!
You still haven’t told me where the Greek Goobermint is going to get Dollars to pay all its Pensioners and Civil Service Workers.
RE
pipefit
First off, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought “any” was referring to the people, not the work.
Now, I am not trying to oversimplify anything. I am not claiming that reversing austerity will fix greece’s problems, or that leaving the euro would, or any such thing. In fact, I’m not talking exclusively about Greece (and didn’t even mention greece in my post). Many of the points I listed are being implemented in places like the US and the UK. I was just illustrating examples of measures which fall under the term ‘austerity’ (though in many cases they don’t like to use that word… you don’t hear republicans using it much, for example). The reason I did is that what you said austerity meant for you seemed quite different than the term’s accepted usage.
“The reason I did is that what you said austerity meant for you seemed quite different than the term’s accepted usage.”
‘Austerity’ is a good, average, ordinary, common word that is used occasionally by English language people. But in the context of the PIIGS’ survival, or failure to do so, it has taken on a new shade of meaning that cannot possibly be confused with the garden variety meaning.
Let me sum it for you. The PIIGS version of ‘austerity’ goes like this, lol:You SHALL set your retirement age higher than that of your German benefactors, or you won’t have a retirement.’
However, if you have been reading sites like TAE and Zero Hedge, surely you now by now that this is a moot point, and no amount of austerity, regardless of the meaning, will salvage the Western version of ‘retirement’. There isn’t going to be retirement for the bottom 95%.
This is whole point of the self sufficiency articles. A few years (or months?) from now, there either won’t be any social security checks, or their purchasing power will be nil. Sure would be nice to have a huge garden, your own source of clean water, etc.
pipefit post=2931 wrote: A few years (or months?) from now, there either won’t be any social security checks, or their purchasing power will be nil. Sure would be nice to have a huge garden, your own source of clean water, etc.
Actually, in the near term of a few years, I would expect to see a vast EXPANSION of the SNAP Card system where EVERYONE, Retired and UE alike will all get food, energy and health care ration cards in a Wartime Economy. Conscription will take care of the young UE problem and aging Rosie the Riveter will get a job making Tanks at the old GM Plant.
I dont think we get to the complete breakdown stage until AFTER the Final War is finished, and that will likely take a few years.
RE
http//www.doomsteaddiner.orgRE said “aging Rosie the Riveter will get a job making Tanks at the old GM Plant”
Not in my city. Most of the old GM, DELCO,& NCR buildings have already been torn down.
RE: Greece could exchange their Euros for USD on the open market, just like they could keep using Euros if kicked out of the Eurozone. The big issue is that they couldn’t have their banks borrow from central banks. This is an issue but as Ecuador has shown it’s not a fatal one.
So Greece currently collects taxes in EUR. They could sell those EUR for USD. This is an interesting proposition because the sheer volume of USD traded on a given day makes Greece relatively unable to affect that market significantly, but it might cause a serious devaluation of the EUR so I think they’d have to proceed slowly rather than just buy/sell on a single day.
This would only work along with strategic default on most or all of the Greek debt. Question: how much of the Greek debt is owned by Greeks?
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