Jul 202014
 
 July 20, 2014  Posted by at 2:23 pm Finance Tagged with: , ,


Clyde H. Sunderland PanAm ‘China Clipper’ (Martin M130 Flying Boat) over San Francisco July 22, 1936

Presumed innocent. Innocent until proven guilty. Reasonable doubt. How long ago it seems that these principles guided our societies. Perhaps there are a few courts in the heartland left that still live up to them, but the aftermath of 9/11 certainly erased them from the overall American conscience. Some animals are more equal than others, said Orwell in Animal Farm.

Guantanamo Bay showed that some people are far less equal than others, and laws that apply to everyone else don’t apply to them. That, somewhat ironically, is probably the case at the other end, the upper echelons of society, as well, judging from the – lack of – numbers of persecuted bankers.

What’s unfolding now, in the wake of flight MH17, looks more like Saddam Hussein 2.0 than anything else. Seems like all we need to do is wait for Colin Powell to bring the ‘evidence’ to the UN. And for someone in the White House to bring up some more known unknowns. Behind the scenes, of course, Saddam 1.0 was about oil, and so is 2.0.

At least 193 of the 298 people (that’s two thirds) who died in the Malaysia Airlines plane crash had the Dutch nationality. The Dutch government makes sure not to point fingers until it has proof. This restraint represents a matter of respect for the victims and their families and friends. No false flags, no false accusations. As you may know, this is my country of birth, to which I’ve also temporarily returned, and I can assure you this is a devastated nation. To make a cruel comparison: the US population is almost 20 times that of Holland, which means that on a relative basis, many more Dutch nationals died than did Americans in 9/11.

The US, which apparently found one dual citizenship American on the plane after looking hard, doesn’t know any such restraint, and hence no such respect. Nor does the UK. Do we detect a pattern? Are we once again allegedly sure that someone possesses something they in reality don’t? Do we repeat our own mistakes, do we forget our follies, that easily?

One things that seems obvious is that the plane was hit by a projectile of some sort. Obama claims US intelligence says it was fired from the ground, but he offered no proof. Reasonable doubt. He also said it came from territory held by ‘separatists’, by again no proof. Reasonable doubt. Everybody and their aunt claims the separatists fired the projectile, but again no proof. Reasonable doubt. Some even say Putin must have supplied the projectile plus the launch installation, but we’re just getting further away from proof all the time. Reasonable doubt. We’re solidly into suspicions and presumptions, edged on by political agendas, and, again, that is highly disrespectful to victims and loved ones.

One source says the separatists have maybe one launch installation for a BUK ‘surface to air’ rocket, and it may well not be in working order. The separatists took one from the Ukraine army some three weeks ago, and that army at the time said it was broken. That same Ukraine army, meanwhile, is reported to possess 60 of these launch installations. Of which they may have recently transported a number into east Ukraine.

Who fired the thing? We don’t know. So why can’t Obama and David Cameron bring themselves to admit they don’t know? Is that for the same reasons Blair and Bush claimed to be sure Saddam had WMD?

As much as I feel for, and mourn with, the victims of this tragedy, I still want to emphasize to myself that this is a tragedy. I refuse to believe for now that either the separatists or the Ukrainian army (or a third party) deliberately shot a civilian plane out of the sky. Why should they? Does the army want to play the false flag card so much they would do it, just to then blame the separatists? Would the latter do it? They seem to have nothing to gain whatsoever, quite the contrary. Putin? Let’s get serious.

Don’t let’s forget that far more than 298 people have been killed by the Ukrainian army in its quest to ‘eradicate’ the separatists. Even if that has so far happened largely under the western media radar. There’s still an army, and a government, and a newly elected president, waging a very bloody war against people with the same nationality as they have, inside their own country. The president may have been elected somewhat democratically, though east Ukraine refused to vote, but the – rest of the – government is still the same bunch that was installed by the US – Victoria Nuland, Jeff Pyatt – after the Maidan riots ousted elected president Yanukovich.

And in between all the allegations of Putin supplying arms to the separatists, a few things are missing. Putin cannot withdraw his support, whichever form it may have taken, because the risk of a genocide among Russian speaking people in east Ukraine is very real. Russia as a nation recognizes the moral obligation to protect those Russians who were cut off from Moscow when the Soviet Union fell and many new nations were formed from its ashes.

Yulia Tymoshenko, who may have lost the elections but remains a formidable force in Ukraine, has called multiple times for her Russian speaking compatriots to be eradicated, burned, and nuked. Kiev, time and again, and despite their Ukraine passports, labels the separatists terrorists. Because with terrorists you can do what you want. Cue Gitmo.

A second thing missing in translation is that the Ukraine army, despite the talk of Putin arming the other side, is much better armed. Where do they get their weapons? Who finances them? And who fights on their side? We know that there has been, and likely still is, input and cooperation from the likes of the CIA, Blackwater/Academi, right wing extreme government party Svoboda, and other – to our western view unsavory – elements.

The OSCE reports that in June and July, in the city of Lugansk alone, the Ukraine army and its helpers have killed 250 civilians and wounded 850, and that’s not including people living close to combat zones. East Ukraine has been under heavy fire since February, thousands of people have died, and we feign surprise that the separatists are suspicious of everything and everybody connected to the US and EU? And Putin has to withdraw his support for the rebels so west Ukraine, with our support, can finish off the remaining 4.5 million Russian speaking people in the east?

What are we going to do if it becomes clear that it wasn’t the rebels who shot down MH17, but the Ukraine army “we” support? Or maybe we should ask another question: what are the odds that we will ever find out what really happened? Both Russia and the US have tons of equipment monitoring the area, and it’s not likely that both don’t have a huge amount of additional information on the crash that for reasons we don’t know, they haven’t released to date.

One thing we do know is that the SBU, the Ukraine Security Service, has confiscated the taped conversations between the plane and air traffic control, which could clarify a lot about what happened, and taken them to an undisclosed location. The same SBU that has released – among many other ‘findings’ – a series of audio conversations it alleges are between various ‘separatists’, and which paint a damning portrait that strongly suggests they were responsible for downing the plane. But again, that sort of thing is easily fabricated, so no proof.

Reasonable doubt. That’s how you show respect. For victims, for loved ones, for democracy and for justice. From where I’m sitting, which happens to be Holland, far too many amongst us show neither such respect nor doubt nor reason. You would think and hope that 298 dead bodies deserve more than to be reduced to pawns in infantile blame games. They deserve that we should be better than that.

US Macro Suffers Longest Streak Of Weakness Since Lehman (Zero Hedge)

Despite the best efforts of The Fed, its apologists, and the commission-taking talking-heads to persuade the world that the US economy is picking up and set to reach escape velocity any minute… the fact is, the US economy (judged on data not fantasy) is hurting. Consensus expectations for 2014 US GDP growth have collapsed from over 3.00% to a mere 1.7% now. But what is more critical is the incessant bleating that data is picking up and suggests a 2nd half recovery… it doesn’t. US Macro surprise data has been negative for over 21 weeks… the longest such spell of disappointment since Lehman. A glance at the chart also shows something odd… US macro normally cycles back into the positive after dipping negative… as over-pessimism rotates to over-optimism – but this time the ‘bounce’ from over-pessimism failed in May. US macro surprise data is considerably weaker than last year.

Read more …

World GDP Hopes Are Collapsing (Zero Hedge)

Presented with no comment (except to note how different the “fact” in this chart is from the “fantasy” we hear spewed day after day about ‘recovery’ in the world’s economy)…

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Flint Manager Warns of Bankruptcy Over Retiree Cost (Bloomberg)

Flint may be Michigan’s second city to plunge into bankruptcy unless retirees accept cuts in health benefits that threaten to unravel a balanced budget, emergency manager Darnell Earley said. The specter intensifies the conflict over finances in the city of 100,000, which twice has been under state control. Like Detroit, which in 2013 filed the largest U.S. municipal bankruptcy, Flint has struggled with loss of population, jobs and revenue. The birthplace of General Motors has only half its population of 1960. “If we have no ability to mitigate the cost of retiree health care, that’s going to make it very difficult for the city to remain financially stable over the next few years,” Earley said in an interview at City Hall.

Without changes, retiree pension and health expenses would consume 32 percent of the $55 million general fund. As Detroit draws worldwide attention for its record $18 billion bankruptcy, Flint demonstrates the plight of U.S. cities where unfunded post-retirement costs rival or exceed pension liabilities. In Michigan alone in 2011, municipalities had nearly $13 billion in health-care liabilities for retirees, compared with about $3 billion for pensions. Flint is among 17 cities and school districts under some form of state control. “If Flint were to go to bankruptcy, that would highlight that this legacy-cost problem has to be addressed more globally,” said Eric Scorsone, a Michigan State University economist.

“Flint’s at the forefront, but a lot of cities are on the same train, and that train is headed for the cliff.” Michigan emergency managers have sweeping authority over their municipalities’ finances and structure, with power to reorganize, hire and to change union contracts. If Earley determined the city couldn’t pay for its liabilities and sustain services, he could recommend to Republican Governor Rick Snyder that the city file for court protection. “Bankruptcy is a point in the law, and it’s my duty to explore that if it appears we’re not going to be able to make it any other way,” he said. “Whether it’s the absolute next step or not, I can’t say. It would have to be explored. It’s in the law for a reason.”

Read more …

Fix Farms In A Few Countries And Feed 3 Billion More People (New Scientist)

Give us the right levers and we shall feed the world. The lion’s share of the world’s food production problems stem from just a handful of countries. If we could concentrate on these problem areas, we could potentially feed 3 billion more people and massively reduce the environmental damage from farming. “The way we’re growing agriculture right now is totally not sustainable,” says Paul West of the University of Minnesota in St Paul. West and his colleagues looked for “leverage points”: areas with the most potential to change how we grow food. They focused on the 17 crops that represent 86% of the world’s crop calories, and consume the most water and fertiliser. “They’re taking a high-altitude view of all the possible points that need to be made if we’re going to feed a planet full of people,” says Greg Asner of the Carnegie Institution for Science in Stanford, California. “It’s incredibly valuable to have that all in one place.”

West’s study suggests three fundamental areas where we can boost food production sustainably: increasing yields from unproductive farms, decreasing the waste of precious resources like water, and changing how we eat. He also identified the parts of the world where we could get the most bang for our buck (see map, below). First, we need to get more food from existing farms. West identified regions where yields are far too low, mostly in Africa, Asia and eastern Europe. He estimates that boosting yields in those areas to just 50% of the optimum could feed 850 million more people. Next, crops need to be grown more in a more environmentally friendly way. That means cutting greenhouse gas emissions – variously from deforestation, livestock, rice paddies and fertiliser use – while also wasting less water on unnecessary irrigation, and stopping the overuse of fertilisers, which causes water pollution.

The countries responsible for the most environmental damage in the way they farm are China, India, the US, Brazil, Indonesia, and Pakistan. And finally, we need to waste less food. Nearly 30 to 50% of food currently goes to waste. In theory, West says, eliminating all such waste in the US, India and China alone could provide enough food to feed 413 million more people per year. The problem of food waste is made worse by our increasing consumption of meat. Only 51% of crop production is used to feed people, and that figure is dropping. Most of the rest is used to feed animals, which wastes a proportion of calories in crops and so cuts the net amount of food available to people. As a result, letting a kilogram of beef go off, for example, squanders 24 times as many calories as wasting a kilogram of wheat. “Not all food waste is created equal,” says West. He says we should all eat less meat, pointing out that crops used for animal feed in the US, China, western Europe and Brazil could feed 2.4 billion people.

Read more …

California Poised To Shut Down 11 Local Oil Injection Wells (Bakersfield)

Seven independent oil companies have been ordered to halt state-approved wastewater injection work starting noon Monday out of concern they may be contaminating Kern County drinking water. Emergency orders issued Wednesday by the California Division of Oil, Gas and Geothermal Resources apply to 11 disposal wells east and northeast of Bakersfield. About 100 water wells are located within a mile radius of the disposal wells. Oil and water officials say the wells may have injected “produced water” – the toxic and sometimes radioactive liquid that comes up during oil production – and possibly injected fracking fluid at relatively shallow depths that contain relatively low salinity, oil-free water suitable for drinking and irrigation. State officials said they have found no evidence the underground injections, some approved by DOGGR as long ago as the 1970s and others very recently, have ever contaminated drinking or irrigation water.

Pollution has not been ruled out, however, as regulators conduct site inspections and await test results and other information from the companies. DOGGR’s action has come amid a year-old crackdown on industry practices for disposing of oil field fluids. But the orders are distinct in that recent scrutiny has originated with regional water officials focused not on injection wells but oil companies’ misuse of unlined sumps and drilling pits. There is an added sensitivity because agricultural water users and others are drilling ever-deeper wells to cope with the drought. “We need to make sure that the water that they’re going after, if it’s potable now, let’s make sure that it stays that way and we’re not injecting produced water,” said Jason Marshall, chief deputy director of DOGGR’s parent agency, the state Department of Conservation.

Read more …

California Halts Injection of Fracking Waste (ProPublica)

California officials have ordered an emergency shut-down of 11 oil and gas waste injection sites and a review more than 100 others in the state’s drought-wracked Central Valley out of fear that companies may have been pumping fracking fluids and other toxic waste into drinking water aquifers there. The state’s Division of Oil and Gas and Geothermal Resources on July 7 issued cease and desist orders to seven energy companies warning that they may be injecting their waste into aquifers that could be a source of drinking water, and stating that their waste disposal “poses danger to life, health, property, and natural resources.” The orders were first reported by the Bakersfield Californian, and the state has confirmed with ProPublica that its investigation is expanding to look at additional wells. The action comes as California’s agriculture industry copes with a drought crisis that has emptied reservoirs and cost the state $2.2 billion this year alone.

The lack of water has forced farmers across the state to supplement their water supply from underground aquifers, according to a study released this week by the University of California Davis. The problem is that at least 100 of the state’s aquifers were presumed to be useless for drinking and farming because the water was either of poor quality, or too deep underground to easily access. Years ago, the state exempted them from environmental protection and allowed the oil and gas industry to intentionally pollute them. But not all aquifers are exempted, and the system amounts to a patchwork of protected and unprotected water resources deep underground. Now, according to the cease and desist orders issued by the state, it appears that at least seven injection wells are likely pumping waste into fresh water aquifers protected by the law, and not other aquifers sacrificed by the state long ago.

Read more …

Home Forums The Day God Looked Away

This topic contains 27 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by  Nassim 4 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 28 posts - 1 through 28 (of 28 total)
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  • #14097

    Clyde H. Sunderland PanAm ‘China Clipper’ (Martin M130 Flying Boat) over San Francisco July 22, 1936 Presumed innocent. Innocent until proven guilty.
    [See the full post at: The Day God Looked Away]

    #14098

    HI Ilargi

    Your post makes emotional sense to me, it isn’t respectful to make accusations about who shot down the plane and why until there is credible evidence. I also agree that the bigger actors probably have a very good idea what happened, but it doesn’t mean that we will ever know for sure. Who is responsible and exactly why may never reach the public.

    What is likely is that the shooting down of the plane will be used as a pretext for something, whether it is more international sanctions or some sort of change in the parameters of the war on the ground that was not palatable before. Whatever is it, it will not be a good thing!

    I have noticed the mood of the media in the UK including the BBC is shifting after the shock of the plane crash. Everybody must keep their own thinking caps on and not be led around.

    Carbon

    #14099

    Diogenes Shrugged
    Participant

    From what little, if anything, each of us thinks he’s been able to discern from news reports and blogs, we each formulate our own working hypotheses. We’re each entitled to that, whether others agree with our hypotheses or not. Here’s my working hypothesis.

    MH-370 vanished months ago. The search turned up nothing because the flight was hijacked. Whether the hijackers were hackers who controlled the plane remotely, or whether they were people physically on the plane, their objectives were aligned with those of the U.S. & Israel. Passengers were murdered, possibly by cabin depressurization at altitude.

    MH-370 and its dead passengers were kept in cold storage until recently, when the jet was assigned a new number, MH-71. Then, in order to create a “game changer” to justify genocide in eastern Ukraine and a war against Russia, in a false flag and a crisis that could not be allowed to go to waste, MH-71 was “shot down” in eastern Ukraine.

    Note:

    – Dead passengers were already in a state of decomposition before the crash. https://the-tap.blogspot.com/2014/07/people-dead-long-before-flight-took-off.html
    – The western narrative, sans evidence, assigning blame to pro-Russian fighters, was reported far too soon after the crash. In fact, Kiev’s video implicating Russia was posted to YouTube before the plane was shot down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28MrASx-RiM
    – No rocket trail could be seen, suggesting that any explosion would have been due to a bomb onboard the jet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUFjOi1ZpZVErr8EYxg8t1dQ&v=1fytpEF6-EQ#t=129
    – The flight path was diverted into a no-fly zone above the battle zone, making pro-Russian militants plausible patsies. Western military jets provided an escort on that doomed flight path. https://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com/2014/07/bombshell-air-traffic-controller-in.html

    What I’ve outlined does not show a lack of respect for the dead or their families because it’s probably largely true. We owe it to the affected parties to entertain ALL possibilities because the vigorous cover-up now being undertaken by the west could very well relegate MH-71 to that long list of eternal mysteries that also includes the JFK assassination, the unexplained collapse of WTC-7, and the complete absence of dead children at Sandy Hook Elementary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMgIpC-bCfQ

    Remaining agnostic and waiting for conclusive evidence before formulating an opinion is a fool’s game. We live in the Age of Deception. We will never all agree on what happened to MH-71, and this sort of thing will continue to happen over and over again because the perpetrators know from long experience that you, dear patriot, can be counted upon to be so easily bamboozled.

    I read somewhere yesterday that the Dutch hope to gather DNA evidence to identify the bodies. Since I’m out on a limb here, I’ll just go ahead and predict that that evidence, if it is collected and processed credibly, will provide the Black Swan Nassim Nicholas Taleb’s been describing. That evidence will be the game changer to end all game changers.

    #14100

    Diogenes, That doesn’t sound simple enough for me! I always try to apply Occam’s razor (Wikipedia) to reach the simplest conclusion from the strongest evidence available and joining two seperate airline disasters doesn’t seem necessary to explain the facts at all. I guess they both crashed independently.

    Carbon

    #14101

    galacticsurfer
    Participant

    I heard that kolomoiskis people at the dnepropetrosk control tower 4erouted the plane. Kolomoissski is an oligarch with merciless private armies in ukraine, he is at odds with hisarchrival poroshenko, who is moe moderate, about how the war should be run. On 18th, day of shootdown, there was supposed to be a teleconference getween separatists and govt. The plane unfortunately did not land in govt controlled territiry according to plan, so that destruction of evidence not possible as separatists, men or honour, not serial killers hired from jail and nazis, are kin charge of site. I think usa controlled by bad group. They want more wars for profit and the more things go bad in america, west as a whole, the more wars will be started as distraction.now we have ukraine, isis, gaza simultaneously. No coincidence.

    #14103

    Diogenes Shrugged
    Participant

    Carbon: The scope and severity of the crimes committed by criminal banks, criminal corporations and criminal governments such as ours are anything but simple. Never rule out the truth merely because it doesn’t strike you as being simple!

    Also, lip service is often paid to the “strongest evidence” shtick, as if we can anticipate peer-reviewed scientific studies being published in reputable journals on every facet of our existence if we just suspend our thinking and opinion-making long enough. Good luck with that; don’t hold your breath while you wait. Better to thoroughly re-evaluate how you establish for yourself the credibility of your sources, because even the most credible sources claiming “strong evidence” are sometimes wrong. And sometimes they’re even flatly dishonest.

    #14104

    Hi Diogenes

    I know it’s hard to establish what is true from news sources. I use the high probability stuff such as – MH17 crashed in eastern Ukraine after being downed on purpose by someone (even if the plane was misidentified by accident). Just about everyone agrees on these facts. They may not be true, they’re the best I have. After that I wonder what someone would have to gain from the incident and work from there. I try not to get emotional about it.

    Of course the truth might not be the simplest explanation, I realise that real life is complex, but I am limited in what I can know with high probability, so I don’t think I should add complexity unless I have a good reason.

    If I make too many inferences, I can easily be misled by somebody else’s ideas.
    Better to only see part of the picture and be right than see the whole and be wrong!

    Carbon

    #14105

    Nassim
    Participant

    For a long while now, I have not posted any messages on this website – because serious discussion of 9/11 and various similar operations was not permitted.

    I am really sad that it takes the death of so many Dutch people for you to begin to acknowledge that it might have been a false-flag event. “Cui bono” – “with benefit to whom” – is the critical factor and it clearly is of no benefit to the Russians or the “Separatists”.

    I note that the Sydney Morning Herald is telling us that a certain Dutch lady wants Putin to immediately return the bodies of her son and his girlfriend. No mention of the carnage in Gaza where even in peaceful times the people do not have access to uncontaminated drinking water. The biggest Dutch daily seems to want WW3 to start right away.

    “MH17 disaster: ‘Mr Putin, send my children home,’ says distraught Dutch mother”

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-disaster-mr-putin-send-my-children-home-says-distraught-dutch-mother-20140721-zv4vy.html

    “Biggest Dutch Daily Calls For NATO Intervention To Protect MH17; Feinstein Tells Putin To “Man Up And Confess””

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-20/biggest-dutch-daily-calls-nato-intervention-protect-mh17-feinstein-tells-putin-man-a

    “Gaza’s water system collapsing due to IDF strikes, says Red Cross”

    https://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/.premium-1.605332

    From my perspective, it is clear that this event was timed to coincide with the invasion by Israeli ground forces of Gaza. The bombardment of Gaza was also timed to remove ISIS from the front pages and TV screens.

    So long as “sensible” people like you Ilargi continue the denial of any involvement of Israel or elements of the US government in 9/11, we will continue experiencing similar tragedies – which can only lead to all-out war.

    A good read:

    “Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory” by David Ray Giffin

    https://www.amazon.com/Debunking-11-Mechanics-Defenders-Conspiracy/dp/156656686X

    BTW, there are an awful lot of fake 9/11 truth websites out there but these are some genuine ones:

    https://911truth.org/

    “Malaysian Airlines MH370 and MH17. A Criminologist Questions: What are the Probabilities? Is it a Mere Coincidence?”

    Malaysian Airlines MH370 and MH17. A Criminologist Questions: What are the Probabilities? Is it a Mere Coincidence?

    #14107

    Diogenes Shrugged
    Participant

    https://nodisinfo.com/passport-staging-proves-malaysian-airlines-crash-scam/

    When attempts to collect DNA evidence are refused, we’ll be told to believe the passport “evidence.”

    #14108

    Gravity
    Participant

    There’s intense propaganda on every side, its difficult to construct a working theory when so few facts are verifiable or trustworthy.
    The assumption that this crash event is not accidental is an unjust inferrence unless it is confirmed that the plane was (deliberately) hit by a missile, which may not be possible to confirm.
    Its theoretically possible the plane randomly suffered catastrophic mechanical failure and exploded without external cause, rare as that is, but common sense indicates that warzone hazards are vastly more likely to be the cause of the plane exploding above that particular location.
    If the plane was hit by a missile deliberately fired at it, it should be most reasonable to assume that the plane was mistaken for a military craft and hit by accident, since several accounts over the past months indicate the separatists are successfully targeting Kiev’s airforce, with russian weaponry or with appropriated assets, whereas Kiev’s anti air forces should be willing and able to target any russian military craft clandestinely entering the contested regions to aid separatists agaist Kiev.

    It might be seen as disrespectful to also consider false flag causes so soon, but this is only disrespectful insofar as that any party is then blamed without cause or evidence, based only on assumed motives of malevolence. A false flag suggestion is then no less respectful towards the victims and their loved ones than unduly blaming the separatists or Russia. It all depends on the available evidence; motives, means and opportunity.

    Although it is more upsetting to suggest such a horrible thing could be done on purpose to make a case for war, instead of assuming that it happened accidentally, its still a real possibility, considering the dozens of historically documented false flag events or plans thereto perpetrated or concieved by major governments and agencies throughout the 20th century, often to provoke war hysteria, and especially considering the motives of certain western parties to destabilise Ukraine, it wouldn’t be beyond their evil proficiency,

    Fortunately, there is no compelling evidence of malice aforethought yet, except the rumors that the flight was escorted by ukranian fighterjets away from its designated course right into the warzone, or that the Ukrainian press release about the crash was released only 20 minutes afterwards, with details impossible to know so soon. These rumors are mostly unverifiable.

    There’s also a story being run by russian media that Putin’s flight inbound from Brazil was sceduled to pass through the area at the same time, and may have been the intended target for a deliberate strike, and MH17 was somehow mistaken for Putin’s flight (according to one story, its transponder signal was jammed and disguised as a military flight). Since Putin’s demise if shot down would then force Russia into war with Ukraine and/or Nato, several parties might be motivated to blow up Putin’s plane that way, and blame the separatists for it.

    Any of the following parties could have shot down the plane, either accidentally or deliberately, all having distinct economic, military or geostrategic motives and the actual means for targeting any (misidentified) craft in that airspace, including abberant synthetic narratives;
    the separatists, Russia, Kiev, Washington/supporting Nato or CIA assets, various mercenary armies employed by a sovereign power or multinational.

    I suppose its unreasonable to call false flag without more evidence towards that notion, but the whole thing is very suspicious, and because of the extremely loaded media narrative, the tragedy may have extremely grave implications for stability.

    #14110

    Professorlocknload
    Participant

    All’s fair in war. When the shooting begins, there are no longer any rules. Oh, of course they are started with the best of intentions. And God is always on both sides. But in the end, they develop a mind of their own, often consuming their perpetrators as well as destroying vast swaths of life and property.

    And face it, there are big energy resources in Russia. Since when has the US not considered the resources of others it’s own?

    Obviously, to me anyway, the US Administration is attempting to convince the public that Putin is it’s enemy, so that war can spread far and wide to take all eyes off of the economic and humanitarian disasters created by this government.

    And anyone who thinks the US is a dead ringer for victory is mistaken. This nation hasn’t “won” any of the wars it has started since WW II.

    Add the fact this country is now so divided, I’ll posit there would be a civil war here, on any war “over there.” This time around, media can’t be manipulated as it was in the past. This time, truth will be hard to suppress.

    But, hey, the immigration debacle was conveniently bumped from the front pages for a while. The War Party should like that, especially incumbents in an election year. And if this False Flag doesn’t get the cogs spinning at the Defense Industry, the next grand exhibition will for sure.

    #14111

    Boogaloo
    Participant

    My bullshit detector started beeping as soon as I heard the news about MH17. My first thought was: False Flag. But then I was amazed at how much invective started seeping into American media even as the facts remained unclear. The worst of the offenders IMO was Business Insider — not just the articles (which were uniformly and vitriolically anti-Russian) but also the comments seemed to be pushing a narrative crafted by the CIA. Anyone who wanted to talk about facts or evidence was shouted down.

    If this is the state of affairs for our public discourse while times are good and we are in the midst of a prolonged recovery and a return to normalcy, I am afraid to think what things will be like when the wheels come off the economic bus.

    #14112

    jal
    Participant

    Info overload.

    I remember how quiet it was before the web.

    We were all monkeys (3).

    #14116

    TonyPrep
    Participant

    It’s amazing how the conspiracy theories start to creep in immediately, once this sort of thing happens. Illargi probably has it right, that we don’t know and don’t have much evidence to judge. I note only that the investigators apparently have been hampered by separatists. That does seem odd for a group that would have nothing to hide. But, then again, I only have mainstream news to go by and that is notoriously unreliable.

    #14117

    Nassim
    Participant

    TonyPrep,

    Yes. It is always a good idea to go outside the MSM.

    BTW, Russia is complaining that they have sent far too few investigators.

    “Putin Taskforce at Malaysia MH17 crash site not enough, full-scale international team needed”

    https://rt.com/news/174268-ukraine-mh17-crash-putin

    I suspect that the plane fell in the “wrong” area. It was escorted by 2 Ukrainian jet fighters until 3 minutes before the explosion – according to tweets by a Spanish air traffic controller at Kiev Tower.

    It has been some months since the shootings at Kiev’s Maidan – and there no ongoing investigation into the shootings of the police and demonstrators. Similarly, the images of the people who murdered those inside the building at Odessa are freely available online – and there is no investigation into it. At least 20 people are readily recognisable and some of them have put up their “victory” declarations on their own websites.

    No mate, this is no conspiracy theory. This is conspiracy fact.

    #14119

    Ruska
    Participant

    Hello,

    First time commenter. I’ve been following this blog for many years, at least since 2009. I also had a pleasure of hosting Nicole at my place for two of her speak events in my city.
    I am a Russian Canadian. So you understand how deeply these events affect me and my family. I thought no government and their mouthpieces’ lies will ever surprise me anymore. However I was proved wrong again. I am losing any faith to humanity and our collective will to see through the lies or even to care. It breaks my heart to see people around me so indiscreetly going along with any sewage coming out of our official media and governments. Who cares what “the other side” thinks and does?

    I am not suggesting that I know who is to blame for this horrible incident. My heart goes to the deceased and their families. However, our (western) governments demonstrate utter disrespect for these victims by jumping to premature conclusions and withholding full information from the public. If this was indeed a terrible accident then why not present known facts from all sides of the story? Let’s say this one (please press on “cc” button to activate English subtitles):

    https://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2014/07/alexander-borodai-19-jul-press.html

    Sorry for the rant. I just don’t know how to express anything anymore. So many people died and are still dying. I am stunned. I just want evil to be punished. Whoever it is.

    #14121

    Raleigh
    Participant

    Karl Denninger said:

    “The sky was quite clear at the time of the incident from public footage of the impact itself. This strongly implies that multiple nations and certainly the US should have satellite footage of the incident. If such a smoking gun does exist, however, it also almost-certainly came from a classified device (e.g. a spy satellite.) The assumption has to be made that within the organs of the major nations involved they know, factually, exactly where the missile came from geographically. Missiles leave a big trail of fire and (for solid-fuel ones) smoke, never mind the explosion on impact.”

    I’m sure that answers are available, but for whatever reason we probably won’t get them. We’re apparently responsible enough to pay our taxes that feed this madness, yet we’re not responsible enough to handle the truth. Where is the truth nowadays?

    Nassim – “It was escorted by 2 Ukrainian jet fighters until 3 minutes before the explosion.” Denninger also said:

    “Irrespective of who fired and why (it’s nearly-certain that whoever fired the missile they thought they were shooting at a military aircraft and not an airliner) the question remains why the airspace in the vicinity of the known presence of these missiles, especially after one was used to down a military transport, was considered open to civilian transit. That’s ****ing idiotic and the entire International community including the ICAO bears full responsibility for not issuing a strong warning to avoid transit of airspace known to be subject to the use of SAM batteries in a conflict.”

    https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=229214

    When you step on an airliner, you expect the people in charge to keep you out of harm’s way, especially out of enemy fire. The poor people on this plane didn’t stand a chance. It’s almost like they were set up.

    #14122

    Raleigh
    Participant

    Professor – “And anyone who thinks the US is a dead ringer for victory is mistaken. This nation hasn’t “won” any of the wars it has started since WW II.”

    That’s assuming the objective was to “win”. Maybe they care more about keeping the military establishment going, selling lots of armaments, greasing the pockets of the military contractors who support them during their campaigns, than they do about winning. They also get to maintain chaos in the world, a prerequisite for looting.

    They absolutely must hate the Internet. Too many eyes watching them, too many good writers exposing them.

    #14123

    Raleigh
    Participant

    TonyPrep – “I note only that the investigators apparently have been hampered by separatists. That does seem odd for a group that would have nothing to hide.”

    Or are afraid of being set up, maybe having crucial evidence removed that would prove them innocent. Who knows. Only when spy satellites release what they have will we know for sure.

    #14132

    Greenpa
    Participant

    A) re: U of MN etc opinions on the future of agriculture- wow, how sad is that? “More of the same, with more top-down requirements for farmers; ignoring all environmental threats.” yeah, that’ll work.

    And, 2) Ilargi and Stoneleigh- this looks like a fanatstic Krugman article to archive; so it can be pulled out for reference, 5 years from now. Yes, he’s alway had his head up, um, his nose; but this one is a keeper. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/opinion/Paul-Krugman-An-Imaginary-Budget-and-Debt-Crisis.html

    #14133

    Nassim
    Participant

    I posted the following on FT.com – they always delete comments like mine. I wonder why?

    The Russian have released irrefutable proof that

    1- the Ukrainians moved 3-4 Buk missile batteries close to Lugansk briefly before incident. Satellite pictures have been displayed. The separatists have no air force so this in itself is highly-significant.

    2- Two Ukrainian fighters – SU-25’s – were in the neighbourhood of the MH-17 until moments before the incident. The MH-17 were certainly within range of these fighters.

    3-U.S. spy satellite flew over region at that time. U.S. should provide its own photos and data.

    4- There is no proof whatsoever that Buk rockets were fired from areas held by separatists. In any event, these are complex systems and these civilians have not the required training and knowledge.

    5- The Russians insist that they did not provide any such help to the separatists – while the Ukrainians have around 60 batteries of these weapons.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1

    The longer the Americans procrastinate – like with MH-370 – the clearer it will be that they were somehow involved.

    BTW, there has been no investigation into the Maidan shootings. Also, the Odessa massacre has not been investigated and those who carried out this murderous act – many of their pictures are on Youtube – have not been arrested.

    #14134

    Raleigh
    Participant

    Nassim – “BTW, there has been no investigation into the Maidan shootings. Also, the Odessa massacre has not been investigated and those who carried out this murderous act – many of their pictures are on Youtube – have not been arrested.”

    That is very telling.

    #14138

    Gravity
    Participant

    Let me order my thoughts here.
    It is somewhat disrespectful to the victims of MH17 to begin placing blame even before the bodies have been recovered. Yet, because blame is already being placed on Russia and separatists without suffcient evidence, involving bellicose emotional propgaganda, one must keep an open mind and critical view of facts and rumors to avoid hasty judgments or involuntary emotional programming.
    It must be possible to order and integrate information rationally if one is to be unavoidably subjected to news concerning MH17, which necessitates enumerating suspects and possible motives, because blame is already being placed with heavy emotional bias against rational neutrality.
    Some conceivable suspects ordered by ascending gradient of motive and means;

    -It is most unlikely the separatists did it deliberately, so that they knew the flight was civilian, and targeted it with a missile anyway. They would have no motive, insofar as the bad press against them would be predictable, nor could they hope to blame it on Kiev. Also they have no clear means, suitable anti-air assets, to actually hit MH17 at that altitude.

    -It is also unlikely the separatists did it accidentally, so that they mistook the flight for a military flight under Kiev’s command, and fired a missile at it.
    They would have motive to hit any of Kiev’s military flights if they could, but they don’t have clear means to actually hit a plane at that altitude. Its also unlikely they could mistake a civilian flight for a military flight. However, if the separatists did accidentally hit MH17, they would try to deny or deflect blame, due to bad press.

    – It is still unlikely it was a false flag, so that some party shot the plane down deliberately knowing it was civilian, intending to blame the separatists or russians for it. Some such party could also try to have the separatists mistake MH17 for a military plane by blocking its transponder code and superimpose a false military signal, then redirecting the flight over the warzone and have the separatists mistakenly shoot it down.
    False flag or general synthetic terror only works if the perpetrator successfully blames their opponent for the event, in order to influence opinion or legislation towards a predetemined outcome. The separatists would be most unlikely perpetrators because they would have to blame Kiev or its allies for the event, which they couldn’t hope to achieve by media dialectics, so they would be unmotivated to shoot down a civilian flight deliberately, even if they had the means.
    Kiev and its allies would have motive and means to use a false flag this way, so that their own assets shot down the plane or they tricked the separatists into shooting it down. This could work if the separatists or Russia could be successfully blamed by media dialectics, with Kiev then recieving more fanatical western support to further its insane assault on the eastern separatist regions.
    -Washington and its supporting assets in Kiev, apparently CIA and FBI, as well as criminal elements within the EU, IMF and various invested multinationals or sovereigns could also have their own separate economic and strategic motives to do a false flag this way, with the means to employ the Ukrainian army or mercenaries to hit the plane. Their motives would also be economic and military, but not favoring Kiev necessarily, to enable more financial control over Ukraine, to insure prolonged civil war, national disintegration or conflict between NATO and Russia, or simply to influence gas prices.

    -Greater motive tends to create greater means. The deliberate targeting of the flight by false flag (economic) motives should create multidinuous and more manifest means to accomplish the takedown of MH17 than the motives accruing to accidental targeting of MH17. The anti-air assets necessary to target MH17 would then be positioned more closely along its known flightroute if the event was premeditated.
    This reasoning may also lead to selection bias of available evidence towards blaming those suspects with the most manifest malevolence and the most anti-air assets in place.

    -Ignoring that, it is then most likely of all that MH17 was hit by Kiev’s own forces by accident, after somehow mistaking it for a military flight from Russia while it was traversing the contested warzone. Kiev would itself have motive to shoot down a russian warplane in its airspace and also have the most direct means to do so. Moscow may actually be providing incidental air support to the separatists against Kiev’s ground forces with russian military aircraft, although invading Ukraine’s airspace in this way would technically be an act of war.
    Recent incidents involving russian military aircraft in ukrainian airspace have been reported. If true, Ukraine may not want to have these periodic violations publicised if they could then be forced to declare retaliatory war against Russia before becoming a NATO member, or if it would make them look powerless against Russia by not declaring war.
    If Kiev targeted MH17 while mistaking it for a russian warplane, they must have intended to down the flight and either keep it secret, thus mildly intimidating Moscow, or publicise the event to gather support in the west with clear evidence against Russia of ukrainian airspace violations.

    If the rumors are true, that the flight MH17 was escorted through Ukrainian airspace by two of Kiev’s jet fighters, this would not itself be suspicious, if the rumors are also true that Kiev air control tower was having all international flights through its airspace escorted by jet fighters that day.
    However, if in addition to this being true, the rumors are also true, that the flight MH17 was also diverted and its flightpath redirected into the warzone without clear reason while under fighter escort, and if this was the only civilian flight redirected that day by Kiev air control tower, then, in relation to the theoretical capacity of said jet fighters to block MH17’s civilian transponder signal and superimpose a military signal, those combined facts, if true, would indeed be suspicious.

    Gravity is an angry and anguished algorithm anyhow, which brings me to the realisation that I value the lives of my compatriots slightly above people of other nationalities, which is perfectly natural by evolutionary tribalism but still unjust. Many more people than those of MH17 have died unjustly in the past few months in the warzones of Ukraine, Iraq, Syria, Lybia and elsewhere, and I did care about those people too, but just not so closely. I feel more strongly for other warzone victims because such conflict now seemingly involves personal loss to me.

    #14140

    The government in the UK have suddenly (I believe) announced an inquiry into the death of Alexander Litvinenko BBC: UK Home Secretary announces Litvinenko Inquiry I think the timing is really political and designed to cast Russia in a bad light. Recently our oppostion leader Ed Miliband has been to US for talks with Obama. This may or may not be connected, they did say that they discussed Ukraine (and Gaza). The media water is really muddy and vitriolic, this whole Ukraine thing seems to be unusually significant and polarising internationally. It is being made use of IMO.

    I am keeping an open mind as much as possible

    Carbon

    #14141

    Laura S.
    Participant

    Very carefully written article which is of high quality. Thanks for it. Now some of my own perceptions.

    First I think that Putin is using very similar strategy to the Cold War. His main statement is – if they don’t obey, I will show them how easily I can destabilize them (but not invade). Ucraine is the one who loses heavily. Their gas and oil prices were increased to the Western standard. And there is almost no help from EU. EU does not care about free and independent Ucraine. It wants Ucraine to be a market for its second to third quality goods + land to plant their crops. They will not give it energetic independency.

    Ucrainians are alone in this conflict. Putin knows it. This makes it impossible to believe he would want to provoke such a horrendous act of terrorism. He is no Magneto from XMEN to kill people just to prove he was right. He is smart and he knows how to play this. This is why all the blaming without actually knowing anything seems so inefficient. Dutch government still maintains its neutral policy, which enables it to react strategically later. Anyway, passengers are dead already. Nothing can be done to return them to life.

    #14142

    bluebird
    Participant

    Such a sad and tragic event, the loss of so many lives, the loss to families and loved ones. The media has been quick to blame Russia/Putin. But perhaps it was not a missile, maybe a bomb? This leads to even more questions: who could have planted the bomb, was it timed to explode over the Ukraine?

    #14153

    Diogenes Shrugged
    Participant

    Bluebird:
    Modern bombs are not triggered using timers.
    Also, I don’t see a BUK or SAM rocket trail.
    ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaeSwhen4mQ&index=5&list=UUKqFo29EDYngB8QcWEJ3Smg
    (Add an “h” to the beginning of that URL.)

    Ruska:
    Thank you for that link. The reason for the delay in the arrival of the investigators is to permit sufficient additional decomposition to the corpses as to cloud the fact that the passengers were all long dead before the crash. Just my best guess. If the first people on the scene described stench and bodies in advanced decomposition, can you think of any reason for this to be a lie? In my most preposterous imaginings, I cannot. Russians play great chess, but nobody can predict the configuration of the board at the end of the game.

    #14158

    Nassim
    Participant

    Thank you for the video. Very interesting.

    It is notable that in Australia – where the media claims that “progress” only happened because Tony Abbott “put pressure on Putin” – i.e. access to the site was provided, the bodies removed and the black boxes handed to Malaysian officials – they are busy back-pedalling.

    “Having been firmer and sterner than all other leaders in his initial response to the MH17 catastrophe, Tony Abbott is now cautioning against ”facile optimism” in the difficult days ahead.

    The man whose blunt language articulated the world’s initial shock, anger and outrage and set the tone for subsequent responses, now appears to be opting for a more measured and nuanced approach.”

    https://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/tony-abbotts-next-diplomatic-challenge-over-mh17-20140722-3cdq9.html

    It is sad to note that the black boxes were handed to the British – the same people who have just decided to have an official enquiry into the death of double-agent Litvinenko in London. The same people who killed Berezovsky under a deal with the Russians in exchange for photos of Prince Philip. The same people who arranged and accident for their princess in Paris so that she does not dishonour her country by marrying an Egyptian. The same country that killed its WMD inspector – David Kelly – and claimed it was suicide. I could go on, but you should get the picture by now.

    https://ru-facts.com/news/view/33054.html

    In any criminal investigation, three factors dominate – means, motive and opportunity. We should really start from there for both MH-17 and MH-370. The idea that these two incidents are unrelated in preposterous.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means,_motive,_and_opportunity

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