When Money is Debt; Wealth is Poverty
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Hi RE,
Please take some time to review the material here…
When Money is Debt; Wealth is Poverty
https://www.extraenvironmentalist.com/blog/dispatches/236
I’d love to see El G take this information and add his “art” to it to make it more available to the average person.
Please forward him a link and make the request on my behalf.
He should then post the result everywhere – TAE, DD, ZH, wherever…
“Can’t stop the signal…”
TIA…
Resistance IS victory.
I read the article Triv, and the information contained therein is nothing new to those of us who have been discussing and writing about how the Debt system works for the Money Masters of the Universe.
This also is not new or exclusive to Da Fed, it came a long time back in this incarnation, going back to the founding of the Bank of England in 1692. its predated there also by the Baking House of the Medici which sprung “out of nowhere” around 1400 or so.
I’ve written quite a bit about Da Fed, in fact references to these Scumbags appear in most of my articles. You could start with this one though
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/02/24/da-fed-central-banking-according-to-re/
I will send your link over to El G of course, and he may write some of his thoughts about the subject, though these days he appears to be focusing elsewhere.
Whether El G writes on this or not, you can be sure I will. The monetary system as it has existed for at least half a millenia now is the Numero Uno cause of Human Suffering worldwide. Da Fed is just the latest in a long running story here, and while I do agree its the First thing that has to be destroyed here, its just the tip of the iceberg. There is a whole legal system defining ownership that supports the creation of monetary systems like this, and that has got to go also. Until we have a body of law that recognizes that the Resources of the Earth belong to all who populate this planet (inclucing the fish and the trees) and not to any individuals, we can’t have any kid of monetary system that runs fairly. In any event, if the Law is written as it should be, there likely would be no need for a monetary sytem at all.
Meanwhile of course, wresting power of money creation from Da Fed does remain a Numero Uno priority, but in my view this will happen organically anyhow through the collapse. We won’t be free of problems once Da Fed is relegated to the dustbin of History, we’ll have a whole new set of problems to deal with then. However, it is the only way out to a Better Tomorrow.
RE
Hi RE,
Thanks for passing on the link to El G.
Whether this is new or not, it seems quite a few “well heeled” people don’t understand it – including all the people who say “The Fed didn’t create the interest.”
They don’t understand the system.
Ii haven’t ever seen an article that actually breaks down the mechanism of what I call Debt Dollar Tyranny.
I think we both understand that TPTSB will use this collapse they’ve orchestrated to gain even more power and control – I’m looking to Greece and Italy right now… Spain on the way… Ireland in the mix…
The straight to hyperinflation crowd don’t seem to understand the economics of a cartel owning the most debt and dollars and that they will turn that monetary wealth into physical wealth (extracted from society) before they hyperinflate to balance their books.
So, the point is that a lot of people still don’t understand the system and the more we all pound on the table, the more people have a chance to understand the system.
The system hides under a veil of abstraction… if we can pierce that veil, more people will “wake up” all the faster.
TheTrivium4TW post=2245 wrote: Hi RE,
Thanks for passing on the link to El G.
Whether this is new or not, it seems quite a few “well heeled” people don’t understand it – including all the people who say “The Fed didn’t create the interest.”
They don’t understand the system.
Ii haven’t ever seen an article that actually breaks down the mechanism of what I call Debt Dollar Tyranny.
I think we both understand that TPTSB will use this collapse they’ve orchestrated to gain even more power and control – I’m looking to Greece and Italy right now… Spain on the way… Ireland in the mix…
The straight to hyperinflation crowd don’t seem to understand the economics of a cartel owning the most debt and dollars and that they will turn that monetary wealth into physical wealth (extracted from society) before they hyperinflate to balance their books.
So, the point is that a lot of people still don’t understand the system and the more we all pound on the table, the more people have a chance to understand the system.
The system hides under a veil of abstraction… if we can pierce that veil, more people will “wake up” all the faster.
Money is an abstract concept to begin with, but it has become ever more abstract over time and this accelerated quite a bit with the development of electronic computing. Money attaches a numerical value to both labor and the resources of the earth. In the Age of Oil and really all fossil fuels, labor has been seriously devalued. It really doesn’t matter that much what you define money as or on what basis you create it either, IMHO. Asl long as people need and value moey as a means to their survival, some people will loan it out at interest and others will borrow it.
the particualr construction of this monetary system benefits a very few at the expense of the many, but in the end think any monetary system at all ends up doing that. Money itself is an Evil Concept which must be erradicated in all its forms. It is the Root of All Evil.
RE
Reverse Engineer post=2247 wrote: [quote=TheTrivium4TW post=2245]Hi RE,
Thanks for passing on the link to El G.
Whether this is new or not, it seems quite a few “well heeled” people don’t understand it – including all the people who say “The Fed didn’t create the interest.”
They don’t understand the system.
I haven’t ever seen an article that actually breaks down the mechanism of what I call Debt Dollar Tyranny.
I think we both understand that TPTSB will use this collapse they’ve orchestrated to gain even more power and control – I’m looking to Greece and Italy right now… Spain on the way… Ireland in the mix…
The straight to hyperinflation crowd don’t seem to understand the economics of a cartel owning the most debt and dollars and that they will turn that monetary wealth into physical wealth (extracted from society) before they hyperinflate to balance their books.
So, the point is that a lot of people still don’t understand the system and the more we all pound on the table, the more people have a chance to understand the system.
The system hides under a veil of abstraction… if we can pierce that veil, more people will “wake up” all the faster.
Money is an abstract concept to begin with, but it has become ever more abstract over time and this accelerated quite a bit with the development of electronic computing. Money attaches a numerical value to both labor and the resources of the earth. In the Age of Oil and really all fossil fuels, labor has been seriously devalued. It really doesn’t matter that much what you define money as or on what basis you create it either, IMHO. Asl long as people need and value moey as a means to their survival, some people will loan it out at interest and others will borrow it.
the particualr construction of this monetary system benefits a very few at the expense of the many, but in the end think any monetary system at all ends up doing that. Money itself is an Evil Concept which must be erradicated in all its forms. It is the Root of All Evil.
RE
RE, Abstraction is used to hide the evil within the monetary mechanism. That and deception, complexity, black holing certain information and ad Hominem attacks on people who actually discuss relevant issues.Yeah, it is a conspiracy to keep this fraud under wraps – of that the evidence has me convinced.
I side with Bill Still when he says, “It isn’t what backs the money, it is WHO controls its quantity [implied – for WHOSE benefit]”.
Bill Still made a rebuttal to Ed Griffin’s critique – and I think Bill won this particular debate going away…
https://s6.zetaboards.com/Bill_Still_Reforum/topic/1176960/1/
Bill supports limiting government’s ability to excessively increase the money supply – he doesn’t just trust those crooks. It is the people that need to hold the politicians accountable… we need an educated populace or we are doomed.
My analysis leads me to believe that the only real solution requires an educated populace, so I work to help educate people daily.
Money is neither good or evil, it is how it is used.
The actual Scripture says “the love of money” is a root of evil.
For the *love of money* (not money itself) is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
1 Timothy 6:10Of course, those who love money the most will seek to gain control of it and, voila, here we are.
I’m against a valuable asset as “money” because it hasn’t worked for the common person and poor folks can’t afford expensive “money.”
The rich criminal folks just corner the market and hose everyone else – same as it ever was.
Money may have become abstract but the people that have a lot of it lavish themselves with a lot of real things with it. Yachts, mansions, luxury cars and clothing etc. Methinks they view it as more thn an abstract thought.
Golden Oxen post=2252 wrote: Money may have become abstract but the people that have a lot of it lavish themselves with a lot of real things with it. Yachts, mansions, luxury cars and clothing etc. Methinks they view it as more thn an abstract thought.
Golden, the debt receipt money isn’t abstract, the concept that there is debt that impoverishes others with no ability to pay that associated debt back) is where the abstraction and deception begins.
People, in general, HAVE NO IDEA that their monetary wealth (save coins, but that’s small) forced someone else to take debt and pay interest.
Bill Gate and Warren Buffett aren’t just worth $10s of billion (or how much actual cash they have), they are also essential “debt slave owners” as members of society owe that debt with no opportunity to ever pay it off because Gates and Buffett aren’t giving up the one thing required to pay it off – their hoards of cash and bank credit.
A comment on the futility of making people see what we see.
Many commentators have said that they are being marginalized whenever they express the doom of our system.
Its the same as convincing people to change their religious beliefs.
After a lifetime of “teaching”, very few people will look beyond their belief system for explanations.Keep in mind that our belief system has been promoted for the last 30 years or if you prefer since the great depression.
Imagine if YOU would change your beliefs and accept the doom of the world just because an ancient calendar, (maya), was changing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_calendar
Misinterpretation of the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar is the basis for a popular belief that a cataclysm will take place on December 21, 2012. December 21, 2012 is simply the day that the calendar will go to the next b’ak’tun, at Long Count 13.0.0.0.0. The date on which the calendar will go to the next piktun (a complete series of 20 b’ak’tuns), at Long Count 1.0.0.0.0.0, will be on October 13, 4772.Somehow I can’t get my head around the mechanism of how the interest and debt are called in.
“However, If Mrs. Fed saw an opportunity to asset strip even more wealth, she would continue to issue even more debt money. This would make the first $20 debt easily payable and would tend to obfuscate the sheer insanity of borrowing money at interest from someone who could force one into default whenever it served the lender’s calculated interests. Of course, none of the actual dynamics have changed, they have just been concealed by complexity.”
So how does it work that “someone … could force one into default whenever it served the lender’s calculated interests.”
How does this forced default work? If you pay back $20.99, you would only owe $0.01. Wouldn’t the assests that back the 1cent be tiny? If not, then I’d want a clause that said that the “assets” backing the money borrowed would decrease as the debt is paid off. Or is everyone so over the barrel that the TPTB can make the 1 cent be backed by my house or car?
Triv wrote:
Money is neither good or evil, it is how it is used.Disagreed. Money itself is Evil. It enables one person to take advantage of another by its nature. It must be eradicated completely and wiped from the face of the Earth for Homo Sapiens to survive as a species.
RE
Is the computer / internet bad because it enables people to spread disinformation and to cyber bully other people?
@ RE Read Lord Of The Flies RE. There was no money on that island of castaways, The first thing they did was kill the smartest kid amongst them, they called him Piggie, as they split into warring factions. Blaming money for our evil ways doesn’t hold up, but I would certainly agree it causes some of it.
TheTrivium4TW post=2260 wrote: Is the computer / internet bad because it enables people to spread disinformation and to cyber bully other people?
This is a very poor analogy Triv.
The Internet does not divide humanity into a class of Haves and Have Nots; the Internet does not serve as Proxy for Ownership of the Resources of the Earth; nor has the Internet been used (yet) as a means to enslave people for millienia. Money has a real bad track record on all levels. It must be abolished forever more.
RE
Golden Oxen post=2262 wrote: @ RE Read Lord Of The Flies RE. There was no money on that island of castaways, The first thing they did was kill the smartest kid amongst them, they called him Piggie, as they split into warring factions. Blaming money for our evil ways doesn’t hold up, but I would certainly agree it causes some of it.
I read Lord of the Flies GO. It was written by William Golding, a Brit Prep School brat who went to Oxford University, which should be enough right there to disqualify him as an expert on anything.
It’s FICTION written by a man immersed inside of Industrial society who thinks he understands human behavior.
I suggest YOU read up on the Tlingit, the Haida and numerous other Potlatch societies which functioned quite well for millenia without money. Potlatch was BANNED by both the FSofA and Hoser Goobermints, which also should tell you something. You can start from the Wiki entry and go from there.
Reverse Engineer post=2263 wrote: [quote=TheTrivium4TW post=2260]Is the computer / internet bad because it enables people to spread disinformation and to cyber bully other people?
This is a very poor analogy Triv.
The Internet does not divide humanity into a class of Haves and Have Nots; the Internet does not serve as Proxy for Ownership of the Resources of the Earth; nor has the Internet been used (yet) as a means to enslave people for millienia. Money has a real bad track record on all levels. It must be abolished forever more.
RE
But if it did, would you abolish the internet?Me thinks you are projecting onto money the problems of humanity.
Some want to blame race. Others want to blame money.
MLK was right, IMHO – it is content of character that matters.
If you don’t focus on the root cause, the problems will never truly be solved.
The problem is not the knife or the gun, the problem is the serial killer.
Since you didn’t like the internet analogy, albeit it was kind of weak, how about guns?
Triv, I thought we settled this already when you agreed that gift economies are systems designed to overcome greed. the defining feature of a gift economy is its moneylessness. money/agriculture/civilization/totalitarianism is the root of all evil.
ben post=2266 wrote: Triv, I thought we settled this already when you agreed that gift economies are systems designed to overcome greed. the defining feature of a gift economy is its moneylessness. money/agriculture/civilization/totalitarianism is the root of all evil.
Hi ben,
A gift economy and a positive money system (not the demonic one in place now) are is not mutually exclusive.
It is absurdly obvious to me that people’s decisions result in the evil, not the item used to implement said evil.
Blaming outside inanimate objects for evil leads to the absurd conclusion that a lack of straight jackets (preventing us from executing our will) is the “root of all evil.”
After all, if everyone was in straight jackets tied to a pole…
This is elementary stuff, no?
TheTrivium4TW post=2267 wrote: [quote=ben post=2266]Triv, I thought we settled this already when you agreed that gift economies are systems designed to overcome greed. the defining feature of a gift economy is its moneylessness. money/agriculture/civilization/totalitarianism is the root of all evil.
Hi ben,
A gift economy and a positive money system (not the demonic one in place now) are is not mutually exclusive.
It is absurdly obvious to me that people’s decisions result in the evil, not the item used to implement said evil.
Blaming outside inanimate objects for evil leads to the absurd conclusion that a lack of straight jackets (preventing us from executing our will) is the “root of all evil.”
After all, if everyone was in straight jackets tied to a pole…
This is elementary stuff, no?
hey Triv, by root of all evil I mean societal evil and not individual evil. I’m not sure individual evil exists. money/agriculture/civilization is the privatization by which evil concentrates. it’s an anti-civilizational position in which material constraints aren’t seen on balance as constraints but positive values.what’s your idea of a positive money system?
TheTrivium4TW post=2265 wrote:
But if it did, would you abolish the internet?Me thinks you are projecting onto money the problems of humanity.
Some want to blame race. Others want to blame money.
MLK was right, IMHO – it is content of character that matters.
If you don’t focus on the root cause, the problems will never truly be solved.
The problem is not the knife or the gun, the problem is the serial killer.
Since you didn’t like the internet analogy, albeit it was kind of weak, how about guns?
Bah. I am not doing any “projecting” here, I’m just recounting for you the history of money.
It is also incorrect to assume that Evil only comes from the individual motivation of people, it is derived from systems as well. An individual Judge for instance can be a highly moral person, but he is constricted by the body of law under which he works. there are emergent properties of systems which supercede the individual human action. Money, more than even the Legal system has many emergent properties which make the system itself Evil, regarddless of who is running the show.
Far as the “Guns don’t kill People, People kill People” argument goes, this is another Strawman argument. Guns ARE Evil, in the sense that they ridiculously shifted power balance across societies. You should read Jared Diamond’s “Guns, Germs and Steel” if you are not familiar with how Guns served to extiguish all but Industrial Society since they were invented. Guns are a manifestation of both Industrialization AND Money, they came as the result of the never ending Power Seeking that started with the development of Agriculture.
In short Triv, what you hold as True that Evil must come from the hearts of Men is not precisely correct, because Evil comes from systems and larger structures than the individual, and this form of evil is the most pervasive and deestructive, because it outlives the individuals and passes itself down through societies and through the millenia. Guns are Evil, Money is Evil, Property Ownership is Evil. These are all concepts, objuects, structures and systems that have fundamental problems and destroy the balance that Homo Sapiens has to have with the environment to survive here.
These things must be eradicated, and so they will be by the Finger of God here. The Money will destroy itself, and all the Hardware will go down to the Bottom of Davey Jones Locker, and the Guns and the Money will be No More. One can only HOPE there will be a few Homo Sapiens left standing after this all goes own here, but go down it will. I the end, the Meek Shall Inherit the Earth. Right AFTER the Meek get very, VERY Angry.
RE
How can you give human attributes to an inert metal, or paper, object that cannot do a thing without being picked up or utilized by a human for something? I argue this same silliness all the time about gold. Hard to believe it is even being discussed. It is just so damned elementary
“Bah. I am not doing any “projecting” here, I’m just recounting for you the history of *people*.”
There, fixed that for ya. Money is the correlation, people’s lack of character is the causation. That’s not to say that the existence of money doesn’t grease the skids… it does. But there is still an important distinction.
“I want to get rid of money because it facilitates humans acting out in immoral ways” is an accurate representation of your position and the facts, IMHO. I get it. That’s a fair position in many ways.
Money is awesome when properly used.
Money is wicked when misused. Demon money is really bad – and it has a choke hold on us right now.
It is all in the use of the money – and people use the money.
TheTrivium4TW post=2271 wrote:
“I want to get rid of money because it facilitates humans acting out in immoral ways” is an accurate representation of your position and the facts, IMHO. I get it. That’s a fair position in many ways.No, that is not what I said. What I said is that money itself is a systemic Evil which is independent of the motivations of individuals who use it. You are drawing your own conclusions consistent with what you believe is true, not with what I am writing.
It is not in fact the character of man but the character of Money which is Evil. In the absence of money, Homo Sapiens tends to be very generous and caring. It is only once you introduce money that Homo Sapiens takes on Evil characterisitics. Money is the ROOT of all Evil.
Triv said
That’s not to say that the existence of money doesn’t grease the skids… it does.
understatement of the year! 😆
pre-steam multispecies slaves to money.
me and you and everyone we know gettin dirty on the undulating peak plateau of slave money.
chicken or the egg money or the slave? egg money chicken slave.
i can only assume that getting to your positive money system entails a catch-22 akin to steveB’s modern moneyless argument. not gonna happen until the food stops getting locked up.
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