Debt Rattle August 31 2022
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I’ll quote the paragraph I want to reply to, for ease of reference:
“Moving beyond the superficial ‘mass murder is evil’ narrative we can see that when you have a massive population overshoot of the order of 7 billion, and an inadequate food supply and a planet in meltdown, it makes perfect sense to get rid of as many people as possible now because that will reduce the amount of suffering in the future.”Clearly, mass murder is never superficial under any circumstances, but more to the salient point of my rant is this: There is a mental state in which enormous and utterly illogical evil is transmogriphied (within the afflicted person’s mind) into an idea that is considered to be not just logical and moral, but deemed brilliant and noble. It is part of the end-stage phenomena of complete dissociation from Reality, and is associated with near total incompetence at productive tasks.
They can be mesmerizing talkers and are typically great liars and cheats, but on their own behest could not build a bird house or fix a clogged drain to save their own pathetically impotent lives). The traits are most common among the elite and their more or less duped minions, because they are the most degenerate of the degenerative disease’s victims. Disdainful ignorance and arrogant incompetence are feedback loops. They cause eachother.
If our current population of 8 billion (56% urbanized, specialized, lobotomized and about to be euthanized) represents an “overshoot” of 7 billion then how did we survive earlier “overshoots” of 1,2,3,4, and 5 billion when the population was (respectively) 2,3,and 4 billion? Must be some kind of delayed response reaction. Really really delayed.
In any case, preventing the future death of 7 billion people by killing them now is just too too. If the batshit lunacy illogic of that needs further explanation then why bother explaining it at all?
Personally, I recommend that we all go on trying to stay alive and happy as best we can and see how that works out. Then if we all die in some ecological holocaust of the future as the Malthusians predict then we won’t be any deader than dead and will have saved ourselves the dirty work and bad karma of murdering everybody in advance.
Afewknowthetruth said
If I had to live in Taiwan again, I think I would choose Haulien.
So you speak Mandarin: A man of many talents.
D Benton Smith
‘If our current population of 8 billion (56% urbanized, specialized, lobotomized and about to be euthanized) represents an “overshoot” of 7 billion then how did we survive earlier “overshoots” of 1,2,3,4, and 5 billion when the population was (respectively) 2,3,and 4 billion?’
I am genuinely surprised that you do not know, given the extensive discussion about how ‘we’ got to this point.
I will explain.
England had a sustainable population of around 3 million until Tudor times. Almost all of the 10,000 kilojoules of energy consumed per person were generated by natural systems within the land area of England or taken from the beaches and seas around England, with tiny inputs of wine etc. that could not be easily produced in England coming from Portugal, and miniscule quantities of exotic foods coming from Italy or the Middle East.
Henry the Eighth got ambitious and after failed military attempts to recreate a ‘greater England’ that incorporated the ‘lost regions of Northern France, took to taking on the Dutch and others via the construction of a navy. His pride and joy, the Mary Rose, sank just off Portsmouth Harbour (1545?). Building and replacing wooden ships denuded the English countryside, and began seriously messing up the ecology and reducing the overall productivity of England.
Anyway, his daughter Elizabeth played the same game and encouraged English ‘Lords’ to raid Spanish vessels laden with stuff stolen from the Americas and take whatever they could and bring it back to England, allowing the English to buy more stuff from overseas.
There was the political turmoil of the early-to-mid seventeenth century but once things settled, the English got back to stealing stuff and carting it back to England, just as the Spanish and Dutch were doing..
The key step was the establishment of plantations in the Caribbean and American colonies -operated on the basis of slave labour- and hauling back to England megajoules of energy on a continuous basis via sugar.
Killing off around 100 million of the indigenous population or North America helped the process along. And once the bulk of the bison herds had been killed off and the great plains converted to grain production, England was able to import even more megajoules of food energy for its burgeoning population, which had surged way past the sustainable level to 20 or 30 million.
Next came the realisation that English farmland could be forced to generate more megajoules of food energy via the addition of bird shit -guano- so off they went to strip mine all the islands off the coast of South America that had accumulated guano over thousands of years. And when that began running out, they started strip mining the phosphate deposits of Nauru and Christmas islands, until there was nothing left.
Concurrent with all that was the development of steam-powered and the diesel-powered agricultural machinery that allowed farmers to do away with horses and use the land that had provided feed for horses to produce more megajoules (perhaps we should say petajoules) of food energy to increase the population overshoot.
And concurrent with all that was the near extermination of the indigenous populations of New Zealand, Australia, Argentina and South Africa, and the setting up of systems to extract petajoules of food energy in the form of NZ lamb and butter, Australian beef and Argentine corned beef etc. by which time the population overshoot of England was arguably around 47 million, i.e. a total population of about 50 million in the early 1950s.
We should not forget that the great fishing fleets annihilated the cod species of the North Atlantic and decimated numerous other fish species around Britian, almost to the point of there being no fish left to catch.
The final nail in the coffin was the importation of yet more humans from the Caribbean because there was supposedly a labour shortage in the 1950s. And then from the 1960s on, hordes more came from all over the place because they considered England the place to be.
So now the population is 62 million or some equally disastrous number.; a population overshoot of 59 million compared to what was sustained without food imports and fossil-fuel-based agriculture. Yes, all kept alive via industrial agriculture that is on its last legs via depletion, the consequences of burning fossil fuels and lack of affordable fertilisers.
We should note that in both WW1 and WW2, the strategy of the German navy was to sink so many merchant ships that Britian would have to sue for peace because of imminent starvation.
What I have said of England applies equally to Japan or dozens of other nations. Everything was fine in Japan until Europeans ‘opened it up’ and industrialised it. Rice was grown, the seas were fished, and urine was collected and put on the land until Japan went into population overshoot via industrialism. Now 126 million, which is at least 100 million too many.
Perhaps the worst case I know of is Saudi Arabia, which has managed to increase its population from 4 million to 32 million in my lifetime, only because it could extract and sell oil, and purchase industrially-produced food.
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As for NZ, well that supported around 100,000 for several centuries until Europeans arrived, chopped down most of the trees, and set up systems dependent on massive inputs of imported energy, imported fertilisers and conversion of natural gas into urea.So, the answer is, the previous overshoots were out-run in the short term via consuming natural capital. And now there is almost no natural capital left to consume, so the ever-increasing overshoot, achieved from the seventeenth century on, will correct.via die-off.
I suggest you look at Jay Hansen’s work under Die-off, if you are not familiar with it.
D Benton Smith
Thank you for the thoughtful response.
‘Clearly, mass murder is never superficial under any circumstances, but more to the salient point of my rant is this: There is a mental state in which enormous and utterly illogical evil is transmogriphied (within the afflicted person’s mind) into an idea that is considered to be not just logical and moral, but deemed brilliant and noble.’
As understand it, the Nazis -and particularly the SS- managed to psychologically detach themselves so successfully from their victims that they were able to regard them as vermin to be exterminated, like a plague of rats.
The Japanese who invaded China in the late 1930s and raped and murdered 250,000 Chinese in Nanking in a week obviously managed to get themselves into a similar state.
Do you think the leaders of America are so pathologically insane they would use nuclear weapons to exterminate ‘Russian vermin’?
Apparently, the potential prime minister of Britian thinks she has the guts to ‘go nuclear’ to ‘teach Putin a lesson’ and her supporters think that is wonderful !!!???!!!
Or maybe that is just part of the Punch and Judy puppet show.
A couple of other thoughts on this matter of human population overshoot:
1. I could be argued that whoever is in control -Illuminati, Bilderbergers, WEF, IMF, old money etc.- have suddenly realised how badly they have f’d up everything, and that they need to carry out massive depopulation in a short time frame in the vain hope that they can arrest planetary breakdown and preserve habitability for themselves and their own progeny.
I know that does require a far greater degree of foresight than any of them have ever displayed before, but they cannot be totally stupid. Nor can they be.in total agreement amongst themselves about everything: no group ever is. So it could be that a few of the group with some actual brains that still function have realised the predicament they have placed themselves in, and being ruthless psychopaths, they would have no qualms about suggesting and committing mass murder. They do it regularly.
2. On the matter of [surplus] Chinese men searching for or buying women from other countries, I’m sure that happens. However, those women would not be reproducing in their own countries, so the overall effect of China’s one-child policy is to lower the overall population growth in China and elsewhere. Indeed, women who marry Chinese would likely have fewer children than if they remained in less prosperous nations.
In the light of what is happening everywhere, every breeding-age female ought to be very circumspect about having any children. But I doubt that many are.
“EU Declares Energy Crisis ‘Emergency’, the US Will Not Be Immune”
Not exactly, but wanna bet? Our LNG terminal accidentally caught on fire and shut down. That means all that gas is being used here, cheap. Same with the food. So, um, Ursula: is that a threat?
“Putin will only stop when the Europeans have experienced enough pain to chart a different strategic course – and to break with the U.S. and NATO.” –Alistair. Exactly. And I believe the Pentagon nationalists are positioned to “accidentally” force this to happen. They do not want an empire. That is why they, and “Nationalist” people, “Patriots”, are universally bad. You must be one-world, take-over-the-world to be on Weinstein-Bezos’ team.
I know I’ve posted this recently but you may have missed it: “Fewer: How the New Demography of Depopulation Will Shape Our Future” by Ben J. Wattenberg That was 20 years ago, your book is from the 60s. Population is in turn to drop worldwide, and has been dropping. Dropping in China too. Mathusians wrong again. Wrong 250 years in a row. But “Scienz”: of course it was wrong. I hear “Science” and I know I’m going to see idiots with crayons who have never predicted anything correctly in their 40 year careers. Ice Age. CovidCovidCovid. Manhattan underwater. We’ll all be dead by 1990 from ozone. Irony is, of course like most people I believed it, used to believe it, believed it for years. But after requite decades eventually you have to ask the question how science could be wrong every day on every subject for lifetimes. Maybe I’m the dummy and should look into this. So I did.
Also to population and the overshoot we don’t have – feeding 8B people with no problem while knocking off millions of acres at a pop here – since everything out of China is a lie, why would we believe they have 1.5B people? Why not 1B? Claiming they have more people improves their world status and security. One, to be “workers”, two, to be “Soldiers.” Maybe local officials start inflating numbers in 1960 for their own prestige and then can’t reverse to the truth without losing face, who knows? Why would India be any different? Who’s counting heads in Africa?
Uh-huh. The data sucks and you can’t believe anything they say. “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” ― Mark Twain
“I recall being in correspondence with an American who, in 2005, was convinced the US would attack Iran ‘within three weeks’ because an aircraft carrier group was headed for the Straits of Hormuz.”
There was an interesting case of a local U.S. diplomat who sacrificed her career with leaks to prevent that war with Iran. But very sure that was Cheney starting that war in 2007, on the way out, trying to saddle the incoming admin with a war they can’t escape. That’s U.S. tradition.™ That was minor public then. Why not also an attempt in 2005 just before the previous election? But these things do happen.
Figmund: exactly. They communicate everything in their “Narrative™” now. Get up, count what was added as “Must speak” removed as “Banned from speaking” and you have a pretty clear map of where they’re going today. They’re transparent, which isn’t good since our war enemies are also reading, and far better than we. That’s why “Vaccines are bad, masks don’t work” from YouTube = BIG changes.
“‘the line’ which persuaded the European political class to bet all on sanctions. …Shift Four (the FT again): The Europeans did not prepare sufficiently for the consequent energy price rises.”
Oops! The Euro Davos relied on the Nationalist Pentagon to feed them intel and reports on how this would all work. The Pentagon somehow said “This’ll be a cakewalk! Putler has cancer! No way you get smashed between Russia and the Fed, where we liquidate your whole continent for our profit”. Uh-huh. If not, why else would they believe it? None of us believed it. Whoever convinced them must have had supreme authority.
Interesting point that “Liquidating Europe” means the rest of us use all the remaining oil at our leisure, driving moms to soccer practice 2x a day here. Or mom to her meth dealer. The only way out is for American empire, Davos and the UN, the London-DC operatives, to fail and collapse the way we here in the ‘States have been trying to make them for years.
“Yes, all kept alive via industrial agriculture that is on its last legs via depletion, the consequences of burning fossil fuels and lack of affordable fertilisers.”
You say this when the “last legs” go back 200 years and Holland with a couple loose acres produces more food than France. We could feed all Britain with the front lawns and margins of highways we’re not using. It’s a joke. I’m not thrilled with the way things are, but if you’re marching a platoon, you can’t just lie about where we are and what we’re capable of or your predictions will be squashed.
I’ve posted the “Three World Wars” quote, which is confirmed from at least 1900. (HereLetMeGogleThatForYou.com) It is their religion, so it doesn’t require the usual intelligence. For religious reasons given there, the POINT is to create the biggest mess, and the biggest death, in the history of the universe, which means they must CAUSE overshoot, against the people’s will, then CAUSE shortages, which like Russian oil and Dutch food, are completely and totally artificial. The limits are out there and exist, but we’re not near them at this time, which helps make the Fake Narrative™ plausible, and the people not go up and summarily shoot them like a sparrow, and think of them no more. Germany shuts off THEIR OWN PIPELINE and people actually think this is a “Limit on oil.” WTF? Dad refused to fill up the Rambler and that means the gas station ran out? NO! This psychosis is universal somehow, and I just can’t understand it. The gas station has plenty of gas, your Daddy has just gone insane and is murdering you.
Point is, if this “making a mess on purpose” is confirmed as a plan, an option, for 100 years, then executed through thick and thin, rich and poor, and we can see the hazy outlines of their religion-of-mass-murder and chaos on all the edges, then quite probably that’s what’s happening. Or since all the messes are completely voluntary, against economics, engineering, against human nature, against popular support, needing trillions to overcome the resistance of governments, requiring trillions in advertising and the expensive, hostile takeover of every college and institution, then we can we sure it’s not natural at all. It’s forced. Humans aren’t like that. They’re lazy. And lazy people don’t frenetically devour resources. They have to be forced to at the point of eviction as they are now. We are like the natives slave-cutting their own trees in Taiwan. Don’t blame the natives. Pretty sure if they “suddenly” did this, there’s a slavemaster nearby.
The “People” worldwide are telling them not to, and have for 100 years, and certainly since “That giant sucking sound”. They refuse and trample the people relentlessly for 50 years even though we were totally right all that time. If it’s not us, it’s not natural, that can only mean there is a small, coordinated, wealthy minority who are using their illegal gains to overrule us. So that’s not a “natural” limit at all. It’s a fabricated one.
Why?
are there so many social/economic systems that have been tried and are still being tried
Because:
No group is ever in total agreement amongst themselves about everything. ( for example, Read TAE)
However, two successful examples, ant and bees, have evolved into a social/economic systems that has worked for millions of years
——-Afewknow Bett
“the commencement of the Industrial Revolution has been exceedingly bad.”
So the Unabomber was right ! Sure looks like it , we have been too successful.
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