Thoughts on the Suicide in Greece

 

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  • #8567

    ashvin
    Participant

    As most people are already aware, a 77-year old man in Greece blew his brains out in front of the Greek Parliament yesterday in protest of the governm
    [See the full post at: Thoughts on the Suicide in Greece]

    #2309

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Hi Ash, I think Christoulas made it clear why he killed himself… he wanted to die in a way that was more “dignified” than eating out of a garbage can and being a burden to his children – apparently because his pension was looted by banking oligarch operatives operating within the power structure of the Greece’s Central State apparatus.

    I agree – this man speaks the truth and the bankster controlled “media” is just shilling for those that make their jobs possible – either through direct corporate ownership or by giving loans to people they know will “play ball.”

    Remember, Hitler was “freeing Germans” from the bonds of “foreign powers” and that “NAZI” was short hand for “National Socialist German Workers’ Party.”

    Yes, Hitler worked on behalf of the common worker. NOT! But this wolf carefully crafted his “sheep suit” and the people went along with it – not wanting to make waves.

    Which is a good segue into the way the social engineers use language to manipulate people WRT to forms of government.

    Again, we need to really follow Socrates example and *think* about the meaning of words.

    Take “Communism” for example. There is an idealized version of the word, which I think is how you apply the term. However, there is a practical definition of the word that is essential “sheep’s clothing” for a wicked oligarchical dictatorship.

    The latter is the reality. Idealized communism actually sounds like a decent program so long as everyone in the community agrees to go about it in a voluntary way. Once you bring in a government of force (gun and jail cell), the sophisticated criminals lust after gaming that system to their advantage and it then turns into an oligarchical dictatorship in short order. But they won’t call it that… they lie and call it “communism.”

    The reason the American press lies about the true nature of oligarchical dictatorships hiding under the guise of “communism” is that America is also an oligarchical dictatorship, albeit, a much softer one that is currently “hardening” at an alarming rate.

    You see, if Americans were told the truth – that all the nations outside America are ruled by oligarchical dictartoships… they’d then look at America and ask the correct question – “If all other nations are oligarchical dictatorships, what about America?”

    Granted, it is a “scientific” oligarchical dictatorship that uses the sciences in order to enslave us (mathematics of Debt Dollar Tyranny, economics gamed by Debt Dollar Tyranny – they always win big b/c they have a license to steal from the nation, psychology, economics, sociology, pharmacology, etc…).

    America is not a “capitalist” society. Russia, China, etc. are not “communist” societies.

    The communist vs. capitalist narrative is an oligarch psy-op to keep people from realizing the truth – we are all under the thumb, albeit to varying degrees, of a very small group of very corrupt and criminal people.

    George Carlin ~ The American Dream (some bad language, A+ content)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

    IRS Insider Joe Banister Exposes Federal Reserve Coup and IRS Fraud
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEL2uOG9Jrc

    The narratives pushed by the mega bankster institutions are almost always completely false… I don’t think I’ve heard one that is true. Yes, they appear reasonable and believable at a surface level, but they aren’t true when you dig down deep.

    “War is all about deception” – Sun Tzu

    “The best warriors never have to fight.” Sun Tzu

    What price the new democracy? Goldman Sachs conquers Europe
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/what-price-the-new-democracy-goldman-sachs-conquers-europe-6264091.html

    If we don’t understand the game, there is no chance we can resist it or fight it off – and those who are dividing us / impoverishing us / enslaving us / asset stripping us / killing us off know this very, very well.

    “It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. The one aim of these financiers is world control by the creation of inextinguishable debt.”
    ~Henry Ford (the world’s leading industrialist of his era)

    *Believe* your lying eyes – we can’t let the modern day Sophists trick us due to their misuse of language (h/t to Eric Blair – George Orwell – for the heads up)

    #2310

    ashvin
    Participant

    TheTrivium4TW post=1913 wrote: Hi Ash, I think Christoulas made it clear why he killed himself… he wanted to die in a way that was more “dignified” than eating out of a garbage can and being a burden to his children – apparently because his pension was looted by banking oligarch operatives operating within the power structure of the Greece’s Central State apparatus.

    Yes, he made his reasons clear, but I still don’t understand the mentality underlying those reasons. Perhaps I will if I ever wind up in a similar situation, or perhaps not. It’s difficult to see how this man ending his own life benefits anyone, let alone his children. Maybe it does in his specific situation… I don’t know.

    Take “Communism” for example. There is an idealized version of the word, which I think is how you apply the term. However, there is a practical definition of the word that is essential “sheep’s clothing” for a wicked oligarchical dictatorship.

    The latter is the reality. Idealized communism actually sounds like a decent program so long as everyone in the community agrees to go about it in a voluntary way. Once you bring in a government of force (gun and jail cell), the sophisticated criminals lust after gaming that system to their advantage and it then turns into an oligarchical dictatorship in short order. But they won’t call it that… they lie and call it “communism.”

    I never use words to imply an idealized concept. Rather, I try to capture the complex reality of the situation as best as possible. When people construct boxes as convenient placeholders for reality, they are deceiving themselves, as you say. One such box, IMO, is that ALL elite institutions and people are intentionally attempting to enslave humanity and create a one-world dictatorship. Another such box is that elite institutions and people are simply playing by the rules of the system and doing what they think is best for themselves or others, with no malicious intent whatsoever. Both boxes fail to capture the nuanced reality that actually exists.

    Since you brought up “communism”, I really like what David Graeber has to say about it – “we are already communists”. What that means is that communism in its most basic form is simply a principle – “from each according to ability, to each according to need”. The practical reality of this principle already exists across the world at many different scales, but most notably at the scale of person-to-person interaction. We all probably have people in our lives who we would not hesitate to give everything we had to give if they really needed it.

    The important takeaway is that communism, capitalism and other forms of socioeconomic relations can all simultaneously exist, and, in reality, they do, even though the prevalent paradigm is one of fascist capitalism (or what you call “oligarchical dictatorship”). Our reality is filled with many different degrees and blends of structures that combine to inform the totality of our social, political and economic experience. A good deal of that experience in today’s world is definitely informed by purposeful propaganda and manipulation by the elites, as you point out, and a good deal is also informed by the natural reactions we have to the environment which surrounds us.

    #2311

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Hi Ash,

    You make excellent points about complexity and nuance and the dangers of oversimplification into boxes. Human minds seem to have a tendency to over simplify and the social engineers use this to their advantage.

    My effort to deconstruct the system (and the key is to view it as a system, not individual components) in which I find myself, it appears to follow this pattern:

    1. Construct Debt Dollar Tyranny and develop a plan to inflict it on the world. I use the term “The Architects” for the people who devised and created this tyrannical financial system. How many people are part of this “Architect” class? Not many. I’d be surprised if it was over 1,000. I could be less than 20 or 30 – and Debt Dollar Tyranny is impoverishing the entire world at this very moment – so that’s LOT of power wielded by very few people. The Debt Dollar Trojan Horse in America is the Federal Reserve System.

    2. Create a facsimile “capitalist” society in which those with the most money (debt receipts) win control of the nation’s resources. Debt Dollar Tyranny ensures that the few insiders who created the financial fraud will always have the most money and will always come out on top in the chase for debt receipt money. As this group accumulates wealth, everyone else accumulates debt. So, whatever power this tiny group had back in 1913 when they set up Debt Dollar Tyranny on America is magnitudes greater after nearly 100 years of societal asset stripping.

    3. While Debt Dollar Tyranny is probably the single most newsworthy item in the world over the last 100 years or so, nobody in the mainstream press covers it. If you think that is an accident and ignorance keeps Debt Dollar Tyranny off the main stream airways, please feel free to call up all the major news and educate them. I bet all that happens is you get on a “list.” Again, what entity can “compete” for major news media with a small cabal of people who gamed the nation’s monetary system and have siphoned off several percent of the nation’s economic activity every year for nearly 100 a hundred years?

    4. This group’s “Wizard of Oz” curtain appears to be corporate fronts. That is where they hide – behind their corporate fronts. Anything big and powerful is almost assuredly controlled by the Debt Dollar Tyrants – either directly or through people who have aligned themselves with them. Again, who can stand against a cabal that literally asset strips major portions of the economy every year? If they want to put you out of business – who can resist? Especially when thy own or control the major news media.

    5. The rest of society appears to be controlled through Debt Dollar Tyranny facsimile economic overlay – people want money (debt receipts) and they send their labor and physical resources to the people who have the most “money.” That group, of course, is the cabal of Debt Dollar Tyrants. But the average person or CEO doesn’t know this since the education system sells the idea of “capitalism” and how it is good without every telling anyone the deep, dark secret – it isn’t really capitalism, it is a facsimile capitalist over lay on top of Debt Dollar Tyranny that is engineered to bankrupt its host nation and EMPOWER those very few Debt Dollar Tyrants. After all, they didn’t criminally rig the monetary system in order to enrich someone else and impoverish themselves… that’s Econ 101.

    Ii think the above very accurately describes the history and current reality in which we live.

    People will reach different conclusions, but to me it is obvious that there is a conspiracy to create a fraudulent monetary system, over lay it with a capitalist facsimile to hide the criminality under the veneer of credibility and eventually bankrupt entire societies (that is the 100% certain outcome of Debt Dollar Tyranny – there is no other way out) for the benefit of those who set up this criminal operation – and their offspring.

    Oh, and that makes Henry Ford right – and it sounds like he had insider knowledge as the world’s #1 industrialist who had to work with these international financiers.

    Now this is where the social controllers want to trigger the “he must be anti-Semitic” trigger they’ve implanted into people. No, this is about good and evil and nothing else. It has NOTHING to do with race or religious background or skin color or anything else.

    It has to do with people who do not care for their neighbor as they care for themselves – and that’s a content of character issue. Truth be told, it is almost a certainty that people of all colors and claimed religions are involved in this conspiracy at very high levels. Semitic peoples are being brutalized by Debt Dollar Tyranny on the whole, as is everyone else in common society.

    They also hide in complexity – and most folks tune out when things get complex.

    These graphics might clarify how Debt Dollar Tyranny was **engineered** to work.

    Debt Dollar Tyranny
    https://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3325954/debt-dollar-tyranny-2-54k

    The Grand Chessboard
    https://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3229221/grand-chessboard-324k

    The Debt Dollar Tyranny system’s mode of action was entirely known BEFORE it was even forced upon the American people and the Western world and (and the operation to enslave the Muslim world to Debt Dollar Tyranny is under way).

    Africa is impoverished precisely because the Debt Dollar Tyrants put their operatives in power in Africa (skin color doesn’t matter – many of these evil operatives are dark skinned, people. Content of character matters… skin color is correlation, not causation – Debt Dollar Tyrants are causation, but they want people focused on correlation.) and inflict horrible crimes against the common person and they arm, divide and conquer as $25,000 in Debt Dollar Tyranny “loot” is stripped out of sub Saharan Africa per second (Speaking Freely, Vol 2 Susan George)…

    #2312

    Porkpie
    Participant

    I think this is heartbreaking. I also think we need a better narrative. Right now, “both sides” are fighting for the same thing. The “unionized left” wants to return to good pay and buying power for their members, via a return to growth thanks to government spending. The “free-market right” wants to return to good pay and buying power via business stimulation and innovation thanks to government austerity.

    The problem here is the notion of good pay and buying power. A billion people could kill themselves and we would have no greater chance of good pay and buying power–we are having the wrong conversation.

    I like the Archdruid’s take: There is no better future.

    ***apologies for all the quotation marks. I am trying to indicate that I understand these are clumsy generalizations.

    #2313

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Hi Ash,

    As another piece of evidence of incredible media control exerted by the Debt Dollar Tyrant, take a look at this marked up chart orginally created by Karl Denninger…

    https://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3324744/wmdebt-graph-3-79k

    That data comes directly from the Federal Reserve – and it is clear evidence of criminal activity running for 25 years or more.

    Most people think that the Federal Reserve mandate is low unemployment and “stable prices” (“stable” redefined as ever inflating prices) – the so called “dual mandate.”

    That’s not their mandate. They lie about their mandate in a way that would make Eric Blair (George Orwell) blush.

    https://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/section2a.htm

    “[mandate begins]The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and the Federal Open Market Committee shall maintain long run growth of the monetary and credit aggregates commensurate with the economy’s long run potential [/mandate ends] to [expected results of following mandate begins] increase production, so as to promote effectively the goals of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates [/expected results of following mandate].”

    You’ll never hear the true Fed mandate on the “news.” Ever.

    Why? Because they criminally broke the mandate in order to blow the world’s largest credit bubble in human history – and history is clear that every bubble ends in a bust about inversely proportional to the size of the bubble.

    Hence, I’m waiting for the greatest depression in human history – and the chance for the Debt Dollar Tyrants to consolidate the world’s wealth and eliminate civil liberties and freedoms for those they want to rule over. This isn’t “theory,” Ash, this is what is really going on! Right out in the open.

    I was at a local Occupy group discussing how the media was controlled with a few other guys. A woman approached me and said, “Not Democracy Now” in an attempt to claim that Democracy Now was not controlled. She and her son had on “Democracy Now” sweatshirts – so they were sporting their point of view.

    I looked her in the eyes and asked, “Do you understand a debt based money?”

    “I’ve understood debt based money since 1979,” she confidently and proudly replied.

    I replied, “Have you ever heard Amy Goodman talk about debt based money?”

    She looked at me for a second and said, “No.”

    I said, “Controlled.”

    She looked at me for another second and then said, “You know what, I think you are right.”

    That’s not to say that everyone is controlled equally – everyone has a role a play in this divide and conquer, scientific, psychological, sociological, pharmacological, Debt Dollar Tyranny, facsimile capitalist dictatorship that didn’t just happen – it was engineered.

    Read Eisenhower’s fairwell address (note that the Debt Dollar Tyrants are majority owners in the Military Industrial complex and that they use their media and wealth to put their operatives into government – nobody can out bid them and nobody has the sway of their controlled media – UNTIL PEOPLE REALIZE THE CON GAME BEING PLAYED AGAINST THEM!)…

    “In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

    We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.”

    “The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present – and is gravely to be regarded.

    Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.”

    “Down the long lane of the history yet to be written America knows that this world of ours, ever growing smaller, must avoid becoming a community of dreadful fear and hate, and be, instead, a proud confederation of mutual trust and respect. [implied counter to the wishes of the scientific-technological elite]”

    https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm

    #2314

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Porkpie post=1916 wrote: I think this is heartbreaking. I also think we need a better narrative. Right now, “both sides” are fighting for the same thing. The “unionized left” wants to return to good pay and buying power for their members, via a return to growth thanks to government spending. The “free-market right” wants to return to good pay and buying power via business stimulation and innovation thanks to government austerity.

    The problem here is the notion of good pay and buying power. A billion people could kill themselves and we would have no greater chance of good pay and buying power–we are having the wrong conversation.

    I like the Archdruid’s take: There is no better future.

    ***apologies for all the quotation marks. I am trying to indicate that I understand these are clumsy generalizations.

    Porkpie, Debt Dollar Tyranny was **engineered** to create this outcome.

    Poverty: Debt is not a Choice
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juQc0rLdB-E

    When Money is Debt; Wealth *is* Poverty (article is detailed – but stick with it due to the critical nature of the subject)
    https://www.extraenvironmentalist.com/blog/dispatches/236

    https://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3325954/debt-dollar-tyranny-2-54k

    It’s the monetary system is Debt Dollar Tyranny engineered to systematically asset strip whole nations for the benefits of the Architect class and their descendants and “inner party” at the expense of everyone else.

    Joe Banister is a former IRS insider who ran face to face into the Debt Dollar Tyrant managing class… he’s a true hero and his story is worth listening to and comprehending…

    IRS Insider Joe Banister Exposes Federal Reserve Coup and IRS Fraud

    #2315

    ashvin
    Participant

    TheT4TW,

    What you call “Debt Dollar Tyranny”, I like to refer to as the Debt-Dollar Discipline. It is a direct reference to Michel Foucault’s theories on disciplinary society in the West, which he argued first evolved in 17th and 18th century Europe. So already there emerges an important difference in the way we view this debt-dollar system – I see it as being another iteration of a capitalist-industrial process that started well before the Federal Reserve was conceived or created.

    A system of disciplinary institutions certainly has a dimension of intentional and coordinated coercion of the masses, but it also has a dimension of self-reinforcing coercion/influence by the very nature of the way its institutions are designed and operated. It heavily relies on scaring, shaming, subtly influencing, etc. of the masses so that they begin to constantly discipline themselves and play by the rules of the system, while also marginalizing any elements of non-conformity or resistance.

    It is no coincidence that the modern penal system evolved along with the emergence of industrial production as the dominant economic force in Western society. The latter was a system entirely focused on increasing efficiency, where students, workers and soldiers alike were trained to be more obedient, faster and stronger in every aspect of their designated functions. Modern states facilitated this process of immense wealth production by instituting high levels of order on their citizens, or what Foucault would term “discipline”. It was not really a tool for the Kings and Monarchs of old, but rather was more useful for controlling the populations of emerging democratic states

    Foucault pointed out the striking similarities of the prisons, schools, hospitals (especially “mental” institutions), military barracks, office buildings and factories that had been established in the modern state, as they were all designed around specialized functions, regimented schedules and high degrees of observation and control. These institutions even shared very similar physical architectures and were typically legitimized by an underlying “scientific” foundation, whether that be criminology, psychology, medicine or economics. It was their ultimate goal to internalize strict discipline within the individuals themselves, so they would automatically follow these societal “norms” without questioning any of their reasons or results. Anyone who strays too far from the expected behaviors are labeled as part of the “delinquent class”, and are deemed to be in need of reform, rehabilitation, treatment or punishment.

    The quintessence of this institutional disciplinary structure for Foucault was Jeremy Bentham’s “Panopticon”, which is a prison design involving a central watchtower with heavily tinted or mirrored windows. The prison cells would be located around the periphery, and prisoners would never be able to tell whether they were being observed or not. Bentham himself described the design as allowing “a new mode of obtaining power of mind over mind, in a quantity hitherto without example.”

    Dont’ get me wrong here – I don’t dismiss the clear evidence of intentionality on the part of the international financiers to construct a monetary system that primarily serves to extract wealth and enslave the masses with debt. That is certainly a key part of a broader reality, but there IS a broader reality for me. It is one that cannot be fully understood without going back at least a few centuries, and it is not ubiquitously populated by coordinated conspiracies of the minority elites.

    I appreciate all the links and videos, though, and I will give them a listen later.

    #2316

    Ambrose Evans-Pritchard is a pompous ass who flashes around a Classical Education while demonstrating how completely he is out of touch with reality on just about all subects. I am a bit surprised he didn’t mention Heraclitus or Socrates in this post. He also dredges up analogies to 1930s political and economic problems whenever it suits him, but right now he wants to keep his access to Wolfgang Schauble and all the rest of the Euroclowns for interviews, so his spin is they are all “honorable” men trying to do the “right” thing. Ambrose is of course full of shit.

    As for the suicide, its very reminiscent of the Fruit Vendor who kicked off the Arab Spring. In a volatile situation, such events tend to galvanize the emotions of those struggling who empathize with the Seppuku. Which is of course what this is, its a question of Honor and the Japanese had it all codified out. However, you do not have to be Japanese to commit Seppuku, its happens in all cultures under the right set of circumstances.

    RE

    #2317

    ashvin
    Participant

    RE,

    You’re probably right about Ambrose, but I still like to reference him once in awhile when he makes both valid points and points that need to be criticized. As goes Dimitris, so goes Ambrose. It’s not really the man that counts for our purposes, but the message.

    #2320

    ben
    Member

    great comments, Triv. great democracy now! anecdote.

    thank you, RE, for honoring christoulas’ suicide.

    In terms of social unrest, this event was neither surprising nor very exceptional, compared to what has already happened and what will happen in the near future. I have never understood why people take their own lives to get across a sociopolitical message, and I imagine I never will.

    ash, aside from the obvious empathy deficit, the vertiginous heights from which you report are closeted in ivory.

    Is that really what was contained in this man’s last message to his fellow Greeks – a bunch of “loose talk”? Can we really say, at this point in time, that people like Papademos are not puppets of a supranational banking elite that is just as malicious and destructive as the Third Reich? I think not. In fact, I think that most of the evidence points towards the accuracy of Christoulas’ comparison.

    One such box, IMO, is that ALL elite institutions and people are intentionally attempting to enslave humanity and create a one-world dictatorship.

    how do you reconcile these two statements without prevarication? by highlighting the respective uses of “most” and “ALL” instead of effective realities?

    And, as someone who was actually alive during the Nazi occupation of Greece, I don’t believe that he would ever make such comparisons “loosely”.

    no comment.

    Dont’ get me wrong here – I don’t dismiss the clear evidence of intentionality on the part of the international financiers to construct a monetary system that primarily serves to extract wealth and enslave the masses with debt. That is certainly a key part of a broader reality, but there IS a broader reality for me. It is one that cannot be fully understood without going back at least a few centuries, and it is not ubiquitously populated by coordinated conspiracies of the minority elites.

    what’s the cut-off point again, and why, beyond which we needn’t go in order to fully understand your broader and more nuanced reality? and why do you imply that that longer history of yours undermines Triv’s choosing to focus on the contemporary iteration of TPTSB?

    #2321

    pipefit
    Participant

    Hard to blame the dude for not wanting to eat out of garbage cans. But that is what is going to happen to many of them, whether they pull out of Euro today or two years from now. You cannot make stuffed grape leaves out of rolled up fiat notes and hyperbole.

    The sooner the Greeks (and the rest of the PIIGS) ditch the Euro, the sooner they can find the bottom and start digging their way out. Incredibly, the majority of the Greek people still think they are better off in the Euro Zone!!!

    #2323

    Peter Lyon
    Member

    His reasoning is pretty clear and plain to me, though I hope to never be in a position to really understand it. He saw he was going to die one way or another: he could slowly starve to death and hope somebody would find his body before the dogs did; or he could choose the time and place and method of his own death. Taking your own life is a big deal, for whatever reason, so he made it into a political statement as well, so the media (and hence the world) would hear about it, and maybe it would embarass the politicians into doing something about it before more old men (and others) starve to death. If not, he stills ends his own suffering on his own terms.

    #2324

    Ben wrote: what’s the cut-off point again, and why, beyond which we needn’t go in order to fully understand your broader and more nuanced reality?

    From my reading, Ashvin’s cut-off point comes somewhere after 911 but before Aliens. I can’t get more specific than that though. LOL.

    RE

    #2325

    ashvin
    Participant

    Obviously, there has been some confusion over what I was saying in the opening paragraph about the man’s suicide. This confusion can be cleared up by taking the word “understand” to mean exactly what the word “understand” means. It does not mean I disapprove of what he did, or that I think it was wrong. It means that I have never been anywhere close to the circumstances in which this 77-year old man found himself, and I can’t imagine how I would feel or what I would do in a similar situation. On an intellectual level, I’d like to think I would do the “dishonorable” thing and keep myself alive, but, like I said, this is an emotional issue that is beyond my understanding right now.

    ben,

    I’ve noticed your comments as of late have been full of frustration and devoid of any substance whatsoever. “Empathy deficit”…. where do you come up with this nonsense? Try reading and understanding (or asking if you don’t understand) before making your snarky, yet silly comments.

    what’s the cut-off point again, and why, beyond which we needn’t go in order to fully understand your broader and more nuanced reality? and why do you imply that that longer history of yours undermines Triv’s choosing to focus on the contemporary iteration of TPTSB?

    Why would there be a “cut-off point” for the influence of coordinated conspiracies on the various predicaments that humanity faces now? I’m not writing a movie script here, with clever twists and an awe-inspiring story arc. As was made clear in my responses to Triv, I am not trying to undermine his focus either. If you read the original post carefully, you may have noticed that I was criticizing Ambrose for not focusing enough on the malicious intent of European policymakers and the financial elites they serve.

    I was only explaining why I think we cannot attribute everything that is happening today to that one sole “root cause” of debt-dollar “tyranny”, which was only established about 100 years ago and became fully entrenched in 1971. That is a distinction that most certainly takes on importance when discussing various issues, as evidenced in the Teju Cole thread. If that nuance doesn’t matter to you, then go ahead and ignore it. Or, contribute something helpful to the discussion. Or not.

    RE,

    I think you meant “somewhere before 911 but after Aliens”. Doesn’t matter either way, though, because I don’t have a “cut-off point”. If I ever do get one, make sure to berate me until I don’t have one anymore.

    #2326

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Hi Ash, given a real world definition of “capitalism,” I wholeheartedly agree. Of course some group is going to use their wealth and power to game the system – that is true in both ideal communism and ideal capitalism. That’s why both are ideals and not realities. We are stuck with oligarchical dictatorships. The lucky get the soft dictatorship, the unfortunate get the hard dictatorship.

    I think the term “discipline” is too vague. I know it has a well thought out meaning for you, but others won’t “get it.” Debt Dollar Tyranny is more clear as to what it actually is, IMHO. It is tyranny all the way.

    At the end of the day, it seems that caring for one’s neighbor equal to themselves is actually a true requirement in order for humanity to live a life of peace and abundance. No, that concept did not originate with myself. 😉

    We live in interesting times. 😉

    #2327

    ashvin post=1929 wrote:
    RE,

    I think you meant “somewhere before 911 but after Aliens”. Doesn’t matter either way, though, because I don’t have a “cut-off point”. If I ever do get one, make sure to berate me until I don’t have one anymore.

    No, meant as written. You seem to be on board with the idea that the Official 911 story probably is not valid, so one can argue beyond this point, but you have to stop before claiming it was the work of Reptilian Aliens, elsewise you will likely ridicule the person making that argument. Your cutoff point comes somewhere in the gap there, I just can’t pin down precisely where it is that you start to ridicule the argument. However, it does probably come before assertions I made that the International Banking conspiracy goes back past the Medici Era into the Holy Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages. I do recall you not being on board with that assertion. LOL.

    RE

    #2329

    ashvin
    Participant

    RE,

    I’m having a hard time figuring out how to make the “no cut-off point” point more clear…

    Let’s try this – there is NO point in history at which I start to “ridicule” people for believing a conspiracy between economic/financial elites existed at or before that point. THAT is the reason why you cannot “pin down precisely where it is” – because it doesn’t exist.

    What I criticize is the view that all or a very significant portion of human history has developed through a continuous series of inter-connected conspiracies, one informing the next, that have brought us exactly to where we are today. Big difference.

    So, yeah, people like David Icke are subject to ridicule in my book. Not because he has the temerity to identify conspiracies thousands of years ago, but because he believes the original alien conspiracy has been the driving force behind every major development in humanity between then and present day. Of course, the original conspiracy itself is based in nothing but pure fantasy and speculation, which is not true of more recent conspiracies for obvious reasons.

    #2330

    ben
    Member

    Reverse Engineer post=1928 wrote: [quote=Ben]what’s the cut-off point again, and why, beyond which we needn’t go in order to fully understand your broader and more nuanced reality?

    From my reading, Ashvin’s cut-off point comes somewhere after 911 but before Aliens. I can’t get more specific than that though. LOL.

    RE

    I think, effectively, 911 is more of a concession for ash than it is a conviction. that way he gets to compartmentalize it. so I think we should phrase it ‘somewhere around 911.’ and since crop circles can’t intellectually be compartmentalized with ropes and boards they are, as you say, ridiculed if perceived to be relevant at all, let alone relevant to the future. it’s as if he considers his financial analysis to be a materialist endeavor.

    ash, as for icke, who obviously is an affront to your local intelligence, perhaps you shouldn’t throw the baby out with whatever it is you perceive to be the bathwater. if you didn’t find some of the things that icke said in that interview with jones uplifting in any way then that’s your loss. god forbid boatloads of people wake up through other channels than yours, or even draw inspiration from them in your presence.

    #2331

    ben
    Member

    I have never understood why people take their own lives to get across a sociopolitical message, and I imagine I never will.

    to His Obtuseness,

    it’s similar to saying, i’ll never understand why people get hooked on crack.

    empathy: to emotionally put yourself in the place of someone else.

    get it yet?

    What I criticize is the view that all or a very significant portion of human history has developed through a continuous series of inter-connected conspiracies, one informing the next, that have brought us exactly to where we are today. Big difference.

    what do you think the mandates of civilization consist of then if not central planning by those at the top who can lever control through accumulated resources? what is it that you do not understand (i hope that’s not too concrete a word for a politician such as yourself) about the winding paths of capital from power center to power center? if you can get with arrighi’s narrative of so-called modern monopoly capital, starting in genoa and winding all the way to the Fed, then why can’t you even be open to narratives that precede it? is the evidence really that much worse so as to induce dismissiveness or are you just saying that?

    #2332

    Candace
    Member

    “His obtuseness” ? Your tone and style are not neccessary here. As for conspiracies, have all you men going going to the club meetings to keep up with the conspiracy of female oppression? Or has that history come out of the habits of human beings? Did slavery start with a conspiracy or did it just become a habit for people that was reinforced because the people it benefitted were so comfortable with that habit that they were willing to use any means they could think of to keep it going?

    Triv was saying that Ash seems to support the idealized version of communism, but you seem just as wedded to “idealism” with your statements.

    #2333

    sumac.carol
    Participant

    Ben and Reverse Engineer,

    Can you make your criticisms and points without being demeaning towards Ash? I appreciate a good debate but things are getting ugly.

    #2334

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    David Icke is an interesting character. On the one hand, he has some incredible insight into the how the world works. On the other hand, he believes the moon is hollow and filled with reptilian aliens, if I understand him correctly.

    I appreciate the former, but I don’t think the latter is incredibly unlikely (as in about as close to 0% as one can get without being 0%).

    Having said that, I don’t think Icke just made that up. I bet he can go back and cite all kinds of “traditions” in times past and I do have to admit these psychopaths in charge due seem to have a “reptilian mind.”

    Overall, though, I do believe that Icke is a “good guy” and he’s on the right side of history because he’s resisting the tyrants that want to enslave us and, more than likely, kill a lot of us off or, at a minimum, sterilize us so our descendants can’t use up their resources.

    I don’t known enough to say how long this Debt Dollar Tyranny has been in play or how long one “lineage,” for lack of a better term, has been at the helm. After watching The Secret of Oz (on Youtube, well worth the viewing), though, it is pretty clear that this conspiracy was well developed by the time of the American Revolution and at least some of the descendants of the actors back then are still in play now (calling out the Red Shields).

    I am taken aback by the amount of control these Debt Dollar Tyrants have over the media… Nobody mentions Debt Dollar Tyranny, media hosts get fired whenever they touch a nerve…

    Dylan Ratigan called for criminal banksters to be jailed and he was gone as lead on Fast Money within a week, IIRC.

    Cenk was canned for not slobbering “the establishment…” His account is extremely interesting.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrKKkGl3TnY

    Judge Nap was canned immediately after telling too much truth…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=432r-utKgAg

    Unsettling Accounts also exposes how The Investigators was canned for telling the truth about a toxic Monsanto product and how the media has ZERO legal obligation to tell the truth. Yes, you read that correctly. (the whole documentary is a must watch)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkDikRLQrw

    The message is out there – the other hosts know not to tread in unwanted waters.

    Fox depicts their viewers as “sheep.”

    https://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/fox-news-zings-cnn-msnbc-holiday-card-just-164515834.html

    #2335

    ben
    Member

    Candace post=1936 wrote: “His obtuseness” ? Your tone and style are not neccessary here. As for conspiracies, have all you men going going to the club meetings to keep up with the conspiracy of female oppression? Or has that history come out of the habits of human beings? Did slavery start with a conspiracy or did it just become a habit for people that was reinforced because the people it benefitted were so comfortable with that habit that they were willing to use any means they could think of to keep it going?

    Triv was saying that Ash seems to support the idealized version of communism, but you seem just as wedded to “idealism” with your statements.

    Candace post=1936 wrote: “His obtuseness” ? Your tone and style are not neccessary here. As for conspiracies, have all you men going going to the club meetings to keep up with the conspiracy of female oppression? Or has that history come out of the habits of human beings? Did slavery start with a conspiracy or did it just become a habit for people that was reinforced because the people it benefitted were so comfortable with that habit that they were willing to use any means they could think of to keep it going?

    Triv was saying that Ash seems to support the idealized version of communism, but you seem just as wedded to “idealism” with your statements.

    sorry, candace. His Superior Obtuseness, I mean. don’t mind me and my asshole nonsense.

    was slavery just a bad habit of people willing to use it by any means necessary, rather than conspiratorial?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Conspiracy_(civil)&useformat=desktop

    I know what I think.

    then may I refer you upthread to Triv’s point #5, regarding the ‘Debt Dollar Tyranny facsimile economic overlay’ for the cultural implications.

    as to me being wedding to an unspecified idealism, if you’re referring to my having philosophically divorced myself from the totalitarian precepts of civilization, let me remind you that this IMO is a radical blog – here that’s called realism. if not then feel free to clarify.

    sumacarol, if ash isn’t willing to engage in good faith and without arrogance then he deserves to get shit for it. I was mistreated SA last week because I was trying to stick up for Ash and keep the peace but I realize now that SA didn’t deserve that and i’m sorry. do you think he’s been an honest broker of discussion lately?

    #2336

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    sumac.carol post=1937 wrote: Ben and Reverse Engineer,

    Can you make your criticisms and points without being demeaning towards Ash? I appreciate a good debate but things are getting ugly.

    Disagreeing while remaining agreeable is a skill we should all aspire to develop to its upper limit.

    I think I posted it before, but it is worth a second posting… Joe Banister was an IRS insider who started asking legal questions that the establishment couldn’t answer, so they canned him and trumped up legal charges on him in a failed attempt to incarcerate him.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEL2uOG9Jrc&feature=plcp&context=C4b33625VDvjVQa1PpcFOVvqnVN23oiZiYh2PNxfp3dbYmQW7fOqM%3D

    Banister is an American hero, IMHO.

    You won’t be seeing him on main stream TV, though.

    Controlled from the top down.

    Tyrants always want to consolidate wealth and power in a top down hierarchical manner so they can consolidate power and wealth and use it to literally wage war on everyone else.

    1. They steal $1.6 billion of American subject money (debt receipts), lie under oath and nothing happens (MF Global).

    2. They run the drugs – 7,700 tons of heroin out of Afghanistan and into Europe. They then throw the users into private prisons surrounded by private hotels (not sure if Europe does this yet, but America does). Who do you think lobbies for draconian drug sentences? The very same criminals who bring in the drugs and own the private prisons.

    JP Morgan is the back end for Bernie Madoff – nothing happens.

    Wachovia launders between $10 and $378 billion in narcotics money, leases and runs the planes for the drug cartel and are fined 1.3% of the loot. There was no mention of the money actually being recovered because the Big Finance Capital controlled CIA wasn’t about to let go of their loot.

    Just out Goldman Sachs runs a child sex slave and trafficking “fund.”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2124457/Ann-Romney-blind-turst-Goldman-Sachs-sex-trafficking-fund.html

    Nothing happens.

    JP Morgan bribes Jefferson County officials and only the officials go to jail – JP Morgan is exempt.

    Apparently, they have a KMA Card. If you want to know what a KMA card is, you can find out by watching Aaron Russo’s interview…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGAaPjqdbgQ

    The Big Finance Capital “government” front gives guns to the Sinaloa drug cartel. The same cartel that laundered BILLIONS in drug money through Wachovia. The same cartel that the US allowed to traffic tons and tons of cocaine into the US free and clear.

    All the while American subject grandmothers are being strip searched at the airport, small local farmers and the Amish are being SWAT teamed and a guy who sold real milk was tossed into prison for his crime.

    And the kicker? Big Finance Capital’s Pharma division kills about 3000 people every 11 days… that’s a 9/11 every 11 days… That’s over 1,100,000 people deader than a hammer since 9/11… but dying at the hands of a Big Finance Capital corporate front isn’t “newsworthy.”

    It’s all rigged, people… the narrative is being written by demons (with reptilian minds? -lol-) and they pay people enough to play along. When they don’t, they can them and everyone else gets the message.

    ANATOMY OF A CONSPIRACY
    MEDICALLY CAUSED DEATH IN AMERICA

    https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2012/03/08/anatomy-of-a-conspiracy/

    Here is Jon on the Alex Jones show (you won’t hear him on the MSM… controlled)

    ObamaCare (RomneyCare) and the Matrix
    OBAMACARE AND THE MATRIX

    #2339

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Hi ben,

    Do you think Ash is “arrogant” or does he simply have a different personality, which ought to be welcomed in a non authoritarian, freedom loving community?

    I have to admit, I get the impression that Ash went to a very good university that emphasized technical details that are sometimes hard to follow. 😉

    But I don’t get an “arrogant” vibe from Ash.

    I do get a vibe that he has to put up with a lot of chit because he isn’t as popular as Nicole or Ilargi, but who is?

    I appreciate his input and very thankful Ash is here to keep TAE up and running. Having said that, my brain does freeze when his articles get too esoteric for me, but that’s probably my issue due to fluoride, mercury and other toxin exposure.

    For those that didn’t know, the EPA scientist union opposes water fluoridation… the media is controlled so they won’t tell you.

    https://www.nteu280.org/Issues/Fluoride/NTEU280-Fluoride.htm

    You’ll note that Big Finance Capital’s medical subdivision has refused to do a randomized, double blind placebo study (the only kind that can’t be manipulated when done right) to prove ingested fluoride’s efficacy at preventing tooth decay.

    If you research it, you’ll also find that they refuse the same “gold standard” test to prove the flu shot is effective at reducing the risk of getting the flu.

    There is only one reasonable reason to avoid such a test – to hide the results from their subjects – and they don’t hide good results, just bad ones.

    #2340

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    I think some people might find value in this KMO interview of Jon Rappoport. IIRC, he exposes the machinations of media and medical fraud.

    The Temple of Biological Mysticism

    https://c-realm.com/podcasts/crealm/297-the-temple-of-biological-mysticism/

    #2341

    sumac.carol post=1937 wrote: Ben and Reverse Engineer,

    Can you make your criticisms and points without being demeaning towards Ash? I appreciate a good debate but things are getting ugly.

    I don’t see how what I have written so far that is critical of Ash for his attitude towards conspiracy theories can be considered demeaning.

    Trust me, if I wanted to be demeaning, it would hit you over the head like a sledgehammer. I just pointed out that when it comes to conspiracy theory, Ash will not take it seriously/will ridicule it. He admits himself to ridiculing David Icke’s stuff. I personally just don’t think that is being very open minded.

    RE

    RE
    https://www.doomsteaddiner.org

    #2342

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Reverse Engineer post=1946 wrote: [quote=sumac.carol post=1937]Ben and Reverse Engineer,

    Can you make your criticisms and points without being demeaning towards Ash? I appreciate a good debate but things are getting ugly.

    I don’t see how what I have written so far that is critical of Ash for his attitude towards conspiracy theories can be considered demeaning.

    Trust me, if I wanted to be demeaning, it would hit you over the head like a sledgehammer. I just pointed out that when it comes to conspiracy theory, Ash will not take it seriously/will ridicule it. He admits himself to ridiculing David Icke’s stuff. I personally just don’t think that is being very open minded.

    RE

    RE
    https://www.doomsteaddiner.org

    Hi RE, If I understood Ash correctly, he says he thinks it is reasonable to conclude that there is a financial oligarch conspiracy to screw everyone else up via Debt Dollar Discipline / Tyranny.

    I think he said that he wasn’t convinced that there was some kind of direct lineage thousands of years running, which is a fair proposition unless there is some pretty strong evidence.

    I have no opinion because I haven’t heard the evidence yet.

    However, I am pretty convinced that the system of tyranny, in all its various forms, has existed as long as humans were able to value their own welfare much more highly than the welfare of others.

    I’m loading up his podcast at the ExtraEnvironmentalist and look forward to what he has to say about Debt Dollar Discipline. The EE intro was nice – they explained how Debt Dollar Discipline was keeping people “in line” and not some Gladiator with a whip.

    That’s the difference between a technological / scientific dictatorship and the run of the mill dictatorship.

    Speaking of tyranny…

    Obsolete…

    #2343

    TheTrivium4TW post=1947 wrote:

    Hi RE, If I understood Ash correctly, he says he thinks it is reasonable to conclude that there is a financial oligarch conspiracy to screw everyone else up via Debt Dollar Discipline / Tyranny.

    I think he said that he wasn’t convinced that there was some kind of direct lineage thousands of years running, which is a fair proposition unless there is some pretty strong evidence.

    I have no opinion because I haven’t heard the evidence yet.

    Well, let’s look at Ash’s last reply to me here to try to get some kind of handle on this one:

    Ashvin wrote: What I criticize is the view that all or a very significant portion of human history has developed through a continuous series of inter-connected conspiracies, one informing the next, that have brought us exactly to where we are today. Big difference.

    So, yeah, people like David Icke are subject to ridicule in my book. Not because he has the temerity to identify conspiracies thousands of years ago, but because he believes the original alien conspiracy has been the driving force behind every major development in humanity between then and present day. Of course, the original conspiracy itself is based in nothing but pure fantasy and speculation, which is not true of more recent conspiracies for obvious reasons.

    So, in P1, Ash cops to being critical of the idea that there is connection between modern conspiracies and those going back into the dawn of time. Problem here being that he seems to be critical of the idea for no other reason than he doesn’t think they are connected. Because so much of this goes so far back in time the evidence you can find is very murky, you’ll never be able to make a “scientific” case for it. However, its also impossible to dismiss it a priori, and that is what Ashvin does once the questions get outside a window of time he is willing to accept evidence from. This appears to go back to about the time Da Fed was founded far as I can tell so far.

    In P2, Ash cops to ridiculing David Icke, and then goes on to declare his ideas to be “pure fantasy and speculation”. He is correct that it’s certainly a lot of speculation, but its not ‘pure’ fantasy since Icke does have his own reasons and evidence he thinks backs up his claims. You can not accept those things as valid, but you can’t say he is engaging in pure fantasy.

    If I am presented with ideas that seem far-fetched, I want to hear more about the rationale behind such ideas. Then I evaluate the plausibility of what is being proposed. For me to say anything is not worth considering because it doesn’t fit into the world construct I currently hold as true is hubris of the first order. I could be wrong on some things, this IS possible (though highly unlikely. lol) So I just listen until I find something that invalidates an argument before I will be dismissive of it.

    In trying to moderate a discussion where people have views which are wildly disparate from your own, you have to be very careful not to let your own prejudices rule the debate. The ongoing collapse here has evolved many people with very different ideas and different theories on why it is occurring in the way it is. This may simply be a result of some modern structures failing, or it may be related to much deeper and longer term structures. The point of the debates is to ferret out the truth of what is more likely here. You cannot do that if you restrict the arguments to just what is occurring here in the modern era.

    RE
    https://www.doomsteaddiner.org

    #2344

    pipefit
    Participant

    Most modern day conspiracy theories fall apart fairly quickly, with only minimal prodding. The best example is the 911 conspiracy theory that states that it went down differently than the government’s assertion that Bin Laden acted alone. In other words, according to the theory, they are lying about Bin Laden. But if our government is lying about Bin Laden, why didn’t Bin Laden set the record straight? Mighty convenient that he kept silent all those years.

    Then there all the Bildeberger/Rockfeller theories about world dominance. The problem with most of these theories is that they have had all this power for years. If they want to do something, all they have to do is do it. They don’t need to wait for an excuse to stamp out 5 billion lives, or any other evil outcome. They could do it tomorrow, if they wanted to. What are they waiting for?

    #2346

    ashvin
    Participant

    First off, ben is the only one being demeaning here. I enjoy discussing these issues with Triv and RE, because they refrain from ad hominem attacks and actually provide substantive responses to my criticisms. Perhaps that’s because they understand that I am simply attempting to explain my alternative perspective, while ben thinks I am being arrogant and dishonest (for no good reason). He probably has not even read a good portion of my recent articles that have focused exclusively on the suffering of the European people, and the Greeks in particular, because he somehow believes I lack empathy for them. You don’t have to read everything I write, ben, but you look foolish when you make such careless accusations.

    Second, with regards to the conspiracy discussion, please understand that not everyone is being ignorant and obtuse when dismissing them. I have no idea what Icke said in his interview with Jones, because that’s not what I was referring to when I was critical of him. I, like most other curious people perusing the alternative media, have been following the various theories for awhile now. I have watched many documentaries/interviews with or by Icke, Jones, Bill Still, etc.

    Those guys DO raise a lot of valid and interesting points, but that does not redeem people like Icke from the fact that they shill these bogus meta-narratives with extremely dubious and speculative “evidence”. I’ll admit, I am suspicious of his motives for the simple reason that he is clearly a very articulate and intelligent person, yet he proposes such grandiose narratives without any credible support. Why not just stick to the facts and the more concrete and less presumptuous conspiracy theories? Perhaps that’s not really what sells among his targeted audience.

    Because so much of this goes so far back in time the evidence you can find is very murky, you’ll never be able to make a “scientific” case for it. However, its also impossible to dismiss it a priori, and that is what Ashvin does once the questions get outside a window of time he is willing to accept evidence from.

    No, that is just your flawed assumption. There is no time window, and I am not dismissing anything “a priori”. I have always kept an open mind and listened to what these people have to say. Like most people, I find their theories entertaining and sometimes insightful, but I also find them to be generally underwhelming and, ultimately, more suitable for a fantasy and/or sci-fi movie script than reality.

    In P2, Ash cops to ridiculing David Icke, and then goes on to declare his ideas to be “pure fantasy and speculation”. He is correct that it’s certainly a lot of speculation, but its not ‘pure’ fantasy since Icke does have his own reasons and evidence he thinks backs up his claims. You can not accept those things as valid, but you can’t say he is engaging in pure fantasy.

    If I am presented with ideas that seem far-fetched, I want to hear more about the rationale behind such ideas. Then I evaluate the plausibility of what is being proposed. For me to say anything is not worth considering because it doesn’t fit into the world construct I currently hold as true is hubris of the first order.

    Yes RE, despite all the shortcomings of the Enlightenment era, I do find a lot of value in the scientific method. For some reason, you find my refusal to accept speculative meta-narratives about how the world (or Universe?) works through conspiracy, without a shred of credible supporting evidence, to be “hubris”. Obviously my current worldview informs my perspective, by I am not dismissing anything simply because it does not fit in. I am dismissing it because, by and large, it is speculative hogwash with no basis in reality.

    One could argue that those of us who are critical of these meta-narratives (yet still engage them) are the people keeping an open mind and trying to “ferret out” the truth, while those who cling to them no matter what and take offense to any criticism of them are the people with a closed-mind and prejudices that automatically rule out alternative perspectives on how human civilization has developed. I don’t believe you are one of those latter people, but I do believe you have convinced yourself that it is your job to go after anyone critical of conspiracy theories, because you generalize us all into a category of being closed-minded and intellectually biased. Sorry, but that’s just not true.

    Hi RE, If I understood Ash correctly, he says he thinks it is reasonable to conclude that there is a financial oligarch conspiracy to screw everyone else up via Debt Dollar Discipline / Tyranny.

    Triv, I was saying that I believe the debt-dollar disciplinary system is one which contains conspiratorial elements, but does not necessarily require top-down, coordinated enforcement, because the system itself is organized in a way that promotes tyranny and enslavement. The reality of this tyranny, IMO, is a blend of coordinated conspiracy and the natural evolution of socioeconomic structures and institutions. I realize that’s a pretty “boring” perspective which does not really capture the imagination and most definitely would not sell books/movies, but it’s the perspective I find to be the most credible right now. I do appreciate you approaching this discussion with me in a substantive and productive manner.

    btw, Triv, I agree that deliberate and malicious acts of fraud, embezzlement, murder and generally tortious/criminal conduct by multinational corporations operating in the industries of finance, pharma, energy, defense, agribusiness, etc. are pervasive in this system, and the evidence to support the existence of such activities around the world is extensive.

    #2349

    ashvin post=1951 wrote:
    Yes RE, despite all the shortcomings of the Enlightenment era, I do find a lot of value in the scientific method. For some reason, you find my refusal to accept speculative meta-narratives about how the world (or Universe?) works through conspiracy, without a shred of credible supporting evidence, to be “hubris”. Obviously my current worldview informs my perspective, by I am not dismissing anything simply because it does not fit in. I am dismissing it because, by and large, it is speculative hogwash with no basis in reality.

    Just because an idea is speculative does not make it hogwash. This is what I mean by revealing subtle prejudice in what you write. The “scientific method” is valid for some investigations, but not all. For instance, you won’t get very far in determining the Existence of God through the scientific method. You have to speculate and work entirely with your mind’s eye to understand the question at all.

    As to whether your mind is closed or open, you would go a lot further in convincing me you had an open mind if you didn’t use descriptors like “hogwash” when you discuss what *I* do, which is engage in a lot of speculation. Its not “Hogwash”, and while I cannot prove some things by the scientific method, I am quite sure I have got it figured out right. You are free to demur of course and not agree with me, but don’t call it “hogwash”. I do have a temper and a short fuse, and I’m not as low key as Ben when I lose it. When I throw napalm, I light up a board like Vietnam on a Summer’s Day in 1969. I didn’t get banned from so many boards because I always am perfectly polite in an argument 😉

    RE

    #2350

    ashvin
    Participant

    RE,

    No offense, but you really have a knack for misunderstanding what I write to you on this thread. It’s as if you are just looking to pick a fight no matter what I say. Show me the place where I called what you write “hogwash”. You can’t, because I didn’t.

    If you are speculating about the unknowable details of a reptilian-alien conspiracy since the dawn of humanity as if you are 100% certain that this is what informs the totality of our experience, then, YES, it is HOGWASH. Plain and simple.

    If you are speculating on why AGW is an elaborate hoax perpetrated by TPTB, despite the sheer abundance of evidence that contradicts your theory, then you are also engaged in the promotion of HOGWASH.

    If you argument is that I can’t call ANYTHING hogwash without being arrogant and closed-minded, because all forms of speculation about any issue whatsoever are born equal, then I would call that argument hogwash as well.

    The scientific method is not about proving things to be absolutely true, but establishing a credible base of support for a hypothesis/theory. When it comes to social sciences, we cannot expect the same amount of hard evidence as we do in the physical sciences, but we can still generally adhere to the method.

    You say that you engage in “speculation”, but, judging from what I have read, that is not true at all, unless you are using the term in a very broad sense. Most of the time, we are simply applying already established theories and new information to the events and broad trends occurring around us, rather than generating our own unique hypotheses for how the world and human society has evolved over time.

    #2351

    I was extrapolating 🙂 You didn’t use the word “Hogwash” with respect to my speculation that the machinations of the International Banking Cartel traverse history back through the Holy Roman Catholic Church, but you did pitch out a pretty snarky reply to that idea.

    Is all speculation created equal? Of course not, but I’m still not sure why speculation that we are being controlled by Reptilian Aliens merits the term “Hogwash” either. It’s certainly possible, there are plenty of planets out there upon which Reptilian life forms could have evolved. Its also possible that Satan is running the BIS directly, I’ve had a few people propose that idea to me over the years. I suspect you would consider that idea to be Hogwash as well.

    As for me, in the absence of incontrovertible factual evidence to the contrary or a logical fallacy, I don’t discount Satan or Reptiles as possibilities here. I don’t generally argue for these ideas as they are not my bailiwick, but I’ll stand up for the people who do when confronted by people who will ridicule them. I’m picking a fight with you Ash because you generally stand on the other side of the Conspiracy Theory line from me and the rest of the fringe crowd out there. I’m just the Fast Gun in the bunch who gets called in when a Gunfighter is needed.

    RE

    #2357

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    pipefit post=1949 wrote: But if our government is lying about Bin Laden, why didn’t Bin Laden set the record straight? Mighty convenient that he kept silent all those years.

    Hi pipefit, I typically avoid 911 because because it is such an emotional issue and that causes people to shut down and the cost / benefit of a 911 discussion is typically high and little is accomplished. That and the monetary system fraud is 100% certain…

    But this isn’t true. Bin Laden did deny he had any involvement in 911 and did so fairly quickly.

    Type in “Bin Laden Denies 911” into startpage.com (they don’t track your searches like google) and review the results – CNN is the first and it is dated September 16, 2001.

    Why would you not search that term before making a claim that is factually false – and making the claim first as though it was your strongest evidence?

    In order to understand complex issues, you have to do the research. it takes time.

    Relying on other people (“news,” “friends,” “blogs”) without doing your own homework is to fall for an “Appeal to Authority” logical fallacy.

    My name references “the Trivium” – it is a methodology that enables one to learn truth from error about the world around them.

    The Trivium consists of Grammar (data), Logic (rationally evaluating the data) and Rhetoric (being able to communicate the data and the logic).

    When your data is wrong, your conclusions are much more likely to end up wrong.

    Most people want to have a certain view and have no interest in a real discussion to reach real, rational conclusions.

    If you are really interested in gaining knowledge about 911 data, I can share some of the Grammar that my investigations have revealed.

    But, please don’t spread false information – and do not trust whoever told you that false information… they are not a reliable source.

    #2358

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    ashvin post=1955 wrote: If you are speculating on why AGW is an elaborate hoax perpetrated by TPTB, despite the sheer abundance of evidence that contradicts your theory, then you are also engaged in the promotion of HOGWASH.

    Hi Ash, my 3rd grade math teacher taught me a lesson that might turn out to be one of the most important lessons I ever learned in my life.

    I was given a math problem, wrote down the right answer and submitted my work.

    When I got it back, it was marked wrong. I was shocked – the answer was right.

    When I approached my teacher about her error, she said, “I don’t care if you have the answer right or not, I care if you know HOW to get the right answer. You didn’t show me HOW you arrived at that answer, therefore, the answer is wrong. Show your work and you’ll get it right.”

    Can you provide me with the data that you reviewed to conclude that humans have a significant direct impact on the temperature of the planet. In addition, please provide the logic you applied to the underlying data.

    I understand this is a bit of a task, so if you simply start with complete temperature records you used to reach your conclusion, that would be great.

    Once you produce the actual data set you have used to reach your conclusion, then we can evaluate it relative to CO2 and other potential factors, as well as verify that data gathering methods didn’t change and impact the results in a significant way.

    TIA…

    #2359

    ben
    Member

    ash, regarding my looking foolish, i really couldn’t give a rat’s ass. i accept your normative insult. perhaps you got it from your hero foucault’s deranged hatred of polemicists. well opinions are like assholes everyone’s got em.

    from the OP

    In terms of social unrest, this event was neither surprising nor very exceptional, compared to what has already happened and what will happen in the near future. I have never understood why people take their own lives to get across a sociopolitical message, and I imagine I never will. But that’s exactly what Dimitris Christoulas did, and his message was heard loud and clear.

    Sometimes, a prevalent reaction to an event like this is to make it into a bigger deal than it really should be, and to idolize the person at the center of it. Other times, we become very skeptical of both the man and his message simply because we feel it is necessary to counteract the media fanfare. We want to pretend that we are taking a cold, hard, objective look at something that is inherently emotional in nature.

    my fundamental problem with you, ash, that as far as i can tell you’re a devout poststructuralist. this will sound harsh but i believe the above excerpt to be pre-packaged, school-grade, poststructuralist tripe, and that it shouldn’t be on the front page of TAE. the deficit in empathy is a function of inhabiting a poststructuralist self-consciousness. all you are doing here is neurotically fretting over the fragments. the unified whole of it may be ineffable but it’s full of truth nonetheless. you just have to let it be.

    poststructuralism is paradoxical and results in its own type of metanarrative. the anti-metanarrative metanarrative.

    narratives will do. minimalist narratives. metamodern narratives. tactical narratives. narrative therapy. placebo narratives. narratives for animals. myths.

    the New Sincerity.

    #2360

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    ashvin post=1951 wrote: btw, Triv, I agree that deliberate and malicious acts of fraud, embezzlement, murder and generally tortious/criminal conduct by multinational corporations operating in the industries of finance, pharma, energy, defense, agribusiness, etc. are pervasive in this system, and the evidence to support the existence of such activities around the world is extensive.

    Hi Ash, agreed. But exactly how do these people continue to do their evil acts with Central State immunity?

    1. Wachovia launders $10-$378 billion in drug money and only the whistle blower gets fired. The money is never reported recovered in spite of the fact American subjects get grilled or looted by law enforcement (stealing money claiming drug money – laundered through Wachovia, perhaps? – without a shred of evidence).

    2. The ATF gives thousands of guns to the same cartel that laundered its money through Wachovia. The only people disciplined are the whistle blowers.

    3. The same cartel, the Sinaloa cartel, is allowed to bring in tons and tons of cocaine (while grandma is strip searched) into the US, free and clear – and nobody gets in trouble.

    4. Goldman Sach gets caught running a child sex slavery “fund” and nobody gets in trouble. Unbelievable? No… perfectly believable when you understand the real level of corruption at play…

    Mitt Romney’s wife had blind trust invested in Goldman Sachs’ sex trafficking fund

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2124457/Ann-Romney-blind-turst-Goldman-Sachs-sex-trafficking-fund.html

    5. JP Morgan is the back end for Bernie Madoff’s $50 billion Ponzi scheme and nobody gets in trouble.

    6. JP Morgan bribes Jefferson County officials to increase the cost of their sewer system 8-fold (totalling $1 billion). The officials go to jail and JP Morgan is never charged. Even though they bribed Goldman Sachs to stay away from their crime scene in Jefferson County. Oh, and the loot they stole from Jefferson County based on the bribes – they get to keep it.

    7. JP Morgan used Corzine to criminally steal $1.6 billion in segregated funds. Corzine apparently lies under oath about being a complete ignoramous. No investigation. Corzine asks for $25 million more from MF Global to pay his attorney fees as his victims try and sue him for relief. JP Morgan got the ill gotten gains and they get to keep it (they claim they sent if off somewhere, but that is irrelevant – an American subject of the BFC “crown” would have to pony up the cash, spent or not).

    8. 7,700 tons of heroin are shipped from Afghanistan to Europe a year… and it isn’t Taliban (who reduced opium to less than 10% of today’s levels when they were in charge) doing it on donkeys. Try C-130s with CIA pilots. Or rendition planes. Year after year after year.

    9. Afghanistan is now the world’s #1 grower of pot. Maximize those profits on the front end (using the media to glamorize drug use as “counter culture” when it is paying tribute to the criminal financiers perched at the top of everything) and the back end when those drug laws they lobbied for are applied to throw our gullible children into their private prison system for top dollar.

    Southwest Asia: Afghanistan #1 in Marijuana Production Now, Not Just Opium

    https://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/2010/apr/02/southwest_asia_afghanistan_1_mar

    Right there in plain sight for all to see in all its corrupt, tyrannical glory.

    Are these the actions of people that of people who KNOW they control the government or actions of people who are completely independent of government?

    The Amish, real milk sellers, people with gardens in their front yard, people who video police in public, grandmas at the airport… are being SWAT teamed, jailed, threatened with life in prison and strip searched.

    All by accident or random?

    Where is the establishment coming out and condemning brutalizing good Americans or speaking out against the non stop criminal activity of the banking oligarchs through their front corporations and front governments?

    Oh, I didn’t even get to Big Pharma’s evils…

    1. Glaxo Smith Klein murdered 14 babies and doesn’t want to pay the fine… nobody gets personally in trouble.

    2. Bayer knowingly murders many in Europe as they ship off known tainted (HIV, hepatitus) to Europe… criminals protected by oligarch controlled government front.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs

    3. Captured EPA allows criminals in pesticide industry to write in the ability to test their toxins on foster children…

    https://www.infowars.com/articles/science/epa_allow_pesticide_testing_on_orphans.htm

    4. Correctly prescribed pharmaceuticals kill 106,000 thousand Americans a year… or a 911 death toll every 11 days.

    This is the tip of the iceberg. There is much, much more we have no clue about.

    #2363

    TheTrivium4TW post=1963 wrote: Can you provide me with the data that you reviewed to conclude that humans have a significant direct impact on the temperature of the planet. In addition, please provide the logic you applied to the underlying data.

    I understand this is a bit of a task, so if you simply start with complete temperature records you used to reach your conclusion, that would be great.

    Once you produce the actual data set you have used to reach your conclusion, then we can evaluate it relative to CO2 and other potential factors, as well as verify that data gathering methods didn’t change and impact the results in a significant way.

    TIA…

    I don’t know what Data Ash uses to establish that Climate Change is anthropogenic, but I have collected a significant amount of data that shows otherwise. It is much more likely to be related to increasing energy dissipation through plate tectonics and vulcanism.

    You can view all the Graphs and Charts in my Geotectonic Ocean Heat Transfer Theory article in the Diner.

    https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/04/02/geotectonic-ocean-heat-transfer-theory/

    The key charts come from dlindquist, a Geologist for the USGS. The most impressive is the Hockey Stick on total strength of quakes going off the charts here

    https://research.dlindquist.com/quake/historical/graph.php?mag=0&type=avgmag&freq=year&style=nonlinear

    Heat Content in the Oceans has increased in lock step with this increasing energy dissipation from the Earth’s Core. The two effects are most certainly related to each other, and the energies are far greater than what you get from all the combustible materials that have been burned, even accounting for some atmospheric heating from Greenhouse Gasses.

    RE

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