Thoughts on the Suicide in Greece

 

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  • #2437

    ben
    Member

    William Carlos Williams

    The descent beckons
    as the ascent beckoned.
    Memory is a kind
    of accomplishment,
    a sort of renewal
    even
    an initiation, since the spaces it opens are new places
    inhabited by hordes
    heretofore unrealized,
    of new kinds—
    since their movements
    are toward new objectives
    (even though formerly they were abandoned).

    No defeat is made up entirely of defeat—since
    the world it opens is always a place
    formerly
    unsuspected. A
    world lost,
    a world unsuspected,
    beckons to new places
    and no whiteness (lost) is so white as the memory
    of whiteness .

    With evening, love wakens
    though its shadows
    which are alive by reason
    of the sun shining—
    grow sleepy now and drop away
    from desire .

    Love without shadows stirs now
    beginning to awaken
    as night
    advances.

    The descent
    made up of despairs
    and without accomplishment
    realizes a new awakening:
    which is a reversal
    of despair.
    For what we cannot accomplish, what
    is denied to love,
    what we have lost in the anticipation—
    a descent follows,
    endless and indestructible

    .

    #2441

    TheTrivium4TW post=2040 wrote:

    Did I miss a specific link? If so, would you be so kind to post again?

    TIA…

    https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/04/02/geotectonic-ocean-heat-transfer-theory/

    RE

    #2442

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    ben post=2041 wrote:

    “There will be, in the next generation or so, a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing dictatorship without tears, so to speak, producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them, but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda or brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods. And this seems to be the final revolution.”
    ~Aldous Huxley, Tavistock Group, California Medical School, 1961

    the following year, as you probably know, Triv, he expanded on this idea in his The Ultimate Revolution speech at Berkeley. i posted about this at TAE last year: my favorite part is in the q&a session when a lady named lillian asks a question. up until this point the great aldous huxley has been talking about the ultimate/final revolution in the context of technological dictatorships and with his eye clearly on the soviet union. then lillian suggests something that to my ear has perhaps never crossed huxley’s mind. it starts at 4m42s:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF4vMpKx0eg&t=4m42s

    Hi Ben, Huxley’s speeches are interesting material that everyone ought to ponder.

    I’m not convinced that he had an eye on the Soviet Union at all, although, I’d need to listen carefully one more time to be sure that this is a fair opinion.

    It seems to me that he was articulating a future takeover of society – not one that had occurred as of yet.

    Surely, nobody is arguing that the Soviets made their dictatorship one where the people “rather enjoyed their servitude,” but that is EXACTLY what I observe in the Western world at the hands of the scientific, technocrat “soft but hardening” oligarchical dictatorship.

    In short, I think he was telling society what his elite buddies had planned for us – remember, his brother was in big with the Rockefeller, Big Finance Capital controlled “United Nations.”

    #2443

    TheTrivium4TW post=2048 wrote:

    Surely, nobody is arguing that the Soviets made their dictatorship one where the people “rather enjoyed their servitude,” but that is EXACTLY what I observe in the Western world at the hands of the scientific, technocrat “soft but hardening” oligarchical dictatorship.

    Really? You think all the folks currently rioting in Spain and Italy are enjoying their servitude? Maybe the ones who are still employed are sorta enjoying it, but not even most of them because they can’t meet their bills or increasing taxes. About the only people really enjoying it are the 1% running the show buying $5000/night Hookers and aeatig Canapes in the Hamptons.

    Far as desiger drugs go, so far they don’t seem to have invented one that keeps a society docile when they don’t have any work to do and can’t feed their children.

    Huxley’s Brave New World only works if there is plenty of Oil to waste. Oil too expensive, that particular vision of dystopia is History. Mad Max on the other hand is a real possiility here.

    RE

    #2445

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Reverse Engineer post=2049 wrote: [quote=TheTrivium4TW post=2048]

    Surely, nobody is arguing that the Soviets made their dictatorship one where the people “rather enjoyed their servitude,” but that is EXACTLY what I observe in the Western world at the hands of the scientific, technocrat “soft but hardening” oligarchical dictatorship.

    Really? You think all the folks currently rioting in Spain and Italy are enjoying their servitude? Maybe the ones who are still employed are sorta enjoying it, but not even most of them because they can’t meet their bills or increasing taxes. About the only people really enjoying it are the 1% running the show buying $5000/night Hookers and aeatig Canapes in the Hamptons.

    Far as desiger drugs go, so far they don’t seem to have invented one that keeps a society docile when they don’t have any work to do and can’t feed their children.

    Huxley’s Brave New World only works if there is plenty of Oil to waste. Oil too expensive, that particular vision of dystopia is History. Mad Max on the other hand is a real possiility here.

    RE

    RE, Thanks for the clarification. You are correct, IMHO. “Loving one’s servitude” only works up until Debt Dollar Tyranny begins the final phase of asset stripping.

    America and Europe have been enslaved for a long time and, in general loved it. In America, they still argue for their enslavement in far more cases than not. But that, too, will change when the Debt Dollar Tyranny “jig is up.”

    While “loving one’s servitude” had a nice long run, it ultimately isn’t sustainable.

    As you well know, it is no accident that civil liberties have been recently extinguished.

    Or that the militarized police state is being unleashed upon the populace now.

    #2446

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Reverse Engineer post=2047 wrote: [quote=TheTrivium4TW post=2040]

    Did I miss a specific link? If so, would you be so kind to post again?

    TIA…

    https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/04/02/geotectonic-ocean-heat-transfer-theory/

    RE

    [edit – I read through most of your article and I think you bring up some interesting points worthy of more thorough investigation. The complexity of the system as a whole is simply immense]

    Something to ponder as well…

    UN ADMITS IT HAS NO CLUE ON CLIMATE!
    https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/un-admits-it-has-no-clue-on-climate/

    Question 3.1 asks: Is the Climate Becoming More Extreme?

    “…NONE OF THE ABOVE INSTRUMENTS HAS YET BEEN DEVELOPED SUFFICIENTLY AS TO ALLOW US TO CONFIDENTLY ANSWER THE QUESTION POSED HERE.”

    Pause.

    See, this is called cognitive dissonance.

    Rappoport’s summation…

    “We, who are in charge of your destiny because we have the money and the power and the force to back it up, don’t know what hell we’re doing when it comes to global warming. But we don’t need to know. All we have to do is tell the manmade warming story and keep telling it. We have the requisite number of media androids and sold-out scum journalists to make that happen. And on that basis and that basis alone, we will tax carbon and reduce industry and destroy populations in order to save the world. And you will go along with it, mainly because you’re too stupid to see through the story. Are we clear?”

    The monetary system is a hoax.

    Fluoride in the water is a hoax.

    The flu shot is a hoax.

    Much of vaccine non-science is a hoax.

    The food pyramid is a hoax.

    The IRS is a hoax.

    The Federal Reserve is a hoax.

    The FDA is a hoax.

    The EPA is a hoax.

    The CIA is a hoax.

    The FBI is a hoax.

    The benevolent big government is a hoax.

    The drug war is a hoax.

    The size of the terror threat is a hoax.

    Pharmacology is mostly a hoax.

    GMO food safety is a hoax.

    The Vietnam War was an Operation Northwoods hoax.

    The denial of nutrition as key to health is hoax.

    It is naive beyond words to think that major hoaxes can’t be played out in the public sphere on a grand scale – it happens ALL THE TIME!

    *Note – “hoax” does not imply that no good is done. Hoax implies that the popular narrative that surrounds and issue is significantly false.

    For example, the CIA works for Big Finance Capital and runs the narcotics on their rendition planes and helps to launder the drug money through their mega bank controllers.

    Yes, some CIA operatives might make a good bust when they aren’t grilling governors to tell their masters how an outsider like Jesse Ventura could win a Governor election…

    Jesse Ventura Gets A Visit From The CIA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K30siX8-9sU&feature=related

    Governor Ventura confronted by the CIA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7uLA2p2IZE

    Big Finance Capital wants to protect their assets FROM the American people and that is what the CIA, ultimately, is out to help the accomplish.

    Even if the lower level compartmentalized agents have no clue.

    BTW, I know the above sounds crazy… but that’s simply because it is crazy. The messenger gets the arrows, but Einstein was right on when he said…

    “Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance.”
    ~Albert Einstein

    I would encourage people to get studying on the issues that interest them… and I won’t hide my data and logic behind some kind of fabricated veil.

    #2449

    TheTrivium4TW post=2052 wrote:

    [edit – I read through most of your article and I think you bring up some interesting points worthy of more thorough investigation. The complexity of the system as a whole is simply immense]

    No doubt, the sytem requires a lot more investigation before you can make a definitive conclusion on this issue. Insofar as the “scientific community” is concerned though, its about 99% considered a Done Deal, climate change is Anthropogenic and a result of icreased Carbon Emissions from Fossil Fuels. If you deviate from that viewpoint, you are considered a “Crackpot” and you get ridiculed for it.

    I of course have no issues with being labelled a Crackpot, since I’m not worried about getting published in mainstream Journals. IMHO though, the data speaks for itself. A HUGE amout of Energy is being erealeased from Earthquakes and Vulcanism these days, and it simply dwarfs the chemical buring of Oil. In a system as big as the Earth, with Oceans so big as they are, this is a HUGE heat sink. You cannot raise the Heat Content of the Ocean an order of magnitude by driving around a few Carz, especially if the Atmospheric Heat hasn’t changed all that much. The Oceans are heating up for another reason, and it is NOT athropgenic in origin. IMHO.

    RE
    http//www.doomsteaddiner.com

    #2450

    ben
    Member

    the following year, as you probably know, Triv, he expanded on this idea in his The Ultimate Revolution speech at Berkeley. i posted about this at TAE last year: my favorite part is in the q&a session when a lady named lillian asks a question. up until this point the great aldous huxley has been talking about the ultimate/final revolution in the context of technological dictatorships and with his eye clearly on the soviet union. then lillian suggests something that to my ear has perhaps never crossed huxley’s mind. it starts at 4m42s:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF4vMpKx0eg&t=4m42s

    Triv said

    Hi Ben, Huxley’s speeches are interesting material that everyone ought to ponder.

    I’m not convinced that he had an eye on the Soviet Union at all, although, I’d need to listen carefully one more time to be sure that this is a fair opinion.

    It seems to me that he was articulating a future takeover of society – not one that had occurred as of yet.

    Surely, nobody is arguing that the Soviets made their dictatorship one where the people “rather enjoyed their servitude,” but that is EXACTLY what I observe in the Western world at the hands of the scientific, technocrat “soft but hardening” oligarchical dictatorship.

    In short, I think he was telling society what his elite buddies had planned for us – remember, his brother was in big with the Rockefeller, Big Finance Capital controlled “United Nations.”

    thanks for the correction, Triv. i was confusing him with Orwell on the soviet question. here’s the relevant quote on Orwell from fairly early in the same huxley speech:

    And here I would like briefly to compare the parable of Brave New World with another parable which was put forth more recently in George Orwells book, Nineteen Eighty-Four. Orwell wrote his book between, I think between 45 and 48 at the time when the Stalinist terror regime was still in Full swing and just after the collapse of the Hitlerian terror regime. And his book which I admire greatly, its a book of very great talent and extraordinary ingenuity, shows, so to say, a projection into the future of the immediate past, of what for him was the immediate past, and the immediate present, it was a projection into the future of a society where control was exercised wholly by terrorism and violent attacks upon the mind-body of individuals.

    #2453

    NedKelly
    Member

    In Czechoslovakia on 16 January 1969, a student, Jan Palach, set himself on fire in Wenceslas Square and died shortly afterwards. He had told friends that he was not protesting the invasion of his country by Soviet forces as much as the dem…oralisation of his fellow citizens in their acceptance of the invasion and its consequences. Twenty years later, commemorations of his death led to the Velvet Revolution.
    “It was not so much in opposition to the Soviet occupation, but the demoralization which was setting in, that people were not only giving up, but giving in. And he wanted to stop that demoralization. I think the people in the street, the multitude of people in the street, silent, with sad eyes, serious faces, which when you looked at those people you understood that everyone understands, all the decent people who were on the verge of making compromises.”
    The suicide in Syntagma Square yesterday , outside the Greek Parliament building, brings this more to mind. He left a statement – “I have no other way to react apart from finding a dignified end before I start sifting through garbage for food.”
    I think the theme of an assertion of human dignity in the face of massive affronts is in both sacrifices.

    #2454

    sensato
    Participant

    “And after perhaps a 1000 words of hemming and hawing about various interpretations of that question and what would be needed to answer it, in terms of actual measuring instruments, the authors—220 authors from 62 countries—concluded:”

    So let’s just cherry pick a phrase that seems to damage IPCC credibility out of the full context of their reply.

    “You KNOW all the experts have been telling us we’re doomed unless we go back to the forests and start eating roots and tubers.”

    And let’s add a final nail to the IPCC coffin with a lie.

    #2456

    Jack
    Member

    Hi Folks!
    I asked this question yesterday and there was no answer and I think it is important because everyone is interested in the timing of the way all this will unfold.
    I know that the answer is not easy to find but I think some people are able to do it .
    Hedge funds for example are smart enough to take a calculated guesses and they get this right some times

    Would it be tied to the interest rates or the price of oil or what.

    =================
    What would be the signs to look for to guess when Japan will go belly up
    =================

    #2460

    Candace
    Member

    I’m guessing another high magnitude earthquake and/or tsunami. 😉

    #2466

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Reverse Engineer post=2055 wrote: [quote=TheTrivium4TW post=2052]Insofar as the “scientific community” is concerned though, its about 99% considered a Done Deal, climate change is Anthropogenic and a result of icreased Carbon Emissions from Fossil Fuels. If you deviate from that viewpoint, you are considered a “Crackpot” and you get ridiculed for it.

    My 3rd grade teacher taught me not to care one iota about what anyone says and to only care about what THEY CAN PROVE.

    Fluoride in the drinking supplies is also “consensus” stuff, but the science exposes their hoax (hint, Ash, that’s why data is hidden or “lost”). The most basic level of common sense would reveal that you do a randomized, double blind placebo study to prove efficacy BEFORE FILTERING TOXIC WASTE NEURO-TOXINS THROUGH INFANTS.

    Even if you were convinced an implementation delay would be too costly, YOU’D STILL DO THE TESTS CONCURRENT TO THE IMPLEMENTATION SO THE DATA WOULD BE AVAILABLE ASAP.

    THE ONLY REASON NOT TO DO THE GOLD STANDARD OF SCIENCE IS TO *HIDE THE RESULTS*.

    The only reason to HIDE THE DATA is to HIDE THE DATA AND LOGIC FROM SCRUTINY.

    The Trivium method just screams HOAX ALERT!

    Except when you are a psychopath with government and media control and have an agenda that includes maximizing profits (selling toxic waste instead of storing it) and benefit from chemically lobotomizing the population in a slow, undetectable manner.

    So MASSIVE appeal to Authority frauds are more frequent than people believe. MASSIVE media hoaxes are also more prevalent than people would every imagine.

    I don’t buy the corporate narrative that 99% of qualified scientists believe AGW has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

    The Great Global Warming Swindle – Documentary Film

    https://video.zita.be/video-galerij/blancostemrecht/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle_Documentary_Film.aspx

    There is no doubt that the oligarchs are pumping up climate change and their pre-packaged carbon tax “solution.”

    People don’t understand the strategy of the elites so they can’t deconstruct their true agenda behind the thin legitimate veneer they use as propaganda to trick people into something that will hurt them badly.

    The oligarchs HATE competition. Carbon credits will be given to the oligarch multi-nationals so their cost structure won’t go up as the economy collapses.

    Their competition, of course will have to pay carbon taxes from the ground up – a VERY UNFAIR.

    The system is ENGINEERED to be gamed. One guy in England closed a steel mill, cut jobs, collected a free $1 billion from tax payers and global pollution remains the same because they moved the operation to India – they had less stringent pollution requirements.

    https://www.climategate.com/stealing-steel-jobs

    “If you don’t get the picture I’ll explain it.

    A UK steel plant closes and the workers lose their jobs. The company receives a billion pounds and the same factory is built in India producing the same CO2.

    Whoever worked that out is insane.”

    No, they were criminal insiders that took advantage of a gullible set of subjects who have no idea what strategy is being employed to enrich the criminal insiders and bury everyone else in inextinguishable debt.

    Again, the man at the center of the AGW claim says no statistical significant warming has occurred since 1996 to present… 15 years of more human CO2 emissions than in all of human history.

    Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming since 1995

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250872/Climategate-U-turn-Astonishment-scientist-centre-global-warming-email-row-admits-data-organised.html

    * Data for vital ‘hockey stick graph’ has gone missing
    * There has been no global warming since 1995
    * Warming periods have happened before – but NOT due to man-made changes

    During times of universal deceipt, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
    ~Eric Blair (George Orwell)

    Now, does this prove that all AGW is a hoax? No. The system is too complex. We’d have to run too identical systems side by side – one with CO2 from humans and one without CO2 and compare the temperatures.

    The hoax is that the oligarchs are selling, with billions upon billions upon billions upon billions of fraudulently Debt Dollar Tyranny cash, the idea they know the problem (never providing data – it was “lost” and can’t be reviewed in some cases) and that their solutions which further enriches themselves and impoverishes and kills off everyone else.

    Vice-Chairman of Rothschild: “Carbon trading must be globally regulated”
    https://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14294

    World government requires world problems.

    Blood And Gore – The Nickname For Al Gore’s Carbon Trading Firm That Is Poised To Make Billions Of Dollars From Carbon Credits

    https://thetruthwins.com/archives/blood-and-gore-the-nickname-for-al-gores-carbon-trading-firm-that-is-poised-to-make-billions-of-dollars-from-carbon-credits

    The social engineers are masters at convincing people they know something when they don’t know it. My police officer friend called me a “kook” when I said that 9/11 didn’t occur as the authorities said it did.

    I asked him if he had investigated it. He said, “No.”

    So, someone who was positive I was a “kook” for my well researched and supported opinion HAD DONE ABSOLUTELY NO RESEARCH TO DETERMINE THE TRUTH HIMSELF.

    And he’s a police officer – where the truth matters, no?

    We have to stop being chumps.

    We have to consent for the con to work.

    #2467

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Jack post=2062 wrote: Hi Folks!
    I asked this question yesterday and there was no answer and I think it is important because everyone is interested in the timing of the way all this will unfold.
    I know that the answer is not easy to find but I think some people are able to do it .
    Hedge funds for example are smart enough to take a calculated guesses and they get this right some times

    Would it be tied to the interest rates or the price of oil or what.

    =================
    What would be the signs to look for to guess when Japan will go belly up
    =================

    Hi Jack,

    People make bets all the time… some have to be right… just because they can’t all be wrong. It doesn’t necessarily mean anyone is “smart.” Sometimes luck is what matters most.

    The insiders make money almost daily because they trade on insider information and market manipulation techniques all day long.

    Nobody outside the “inner party” can predict the timing when the insiders can change the rules at will.

    However, I think there will likely be warning before the big collapse – and I think that warning will come from the price of derivatives. when they start to skyrocket – look out.

    As I said before, the media is propaganda and is usually very positive when the inner party desires a strong market. The media turns negative when the inner party wants the market to drop.

    I’ve noticed a change in media where they are now pumping the negative. That means I wouldn’t be surprised if the down leg starts in the short term, but I can’t be sure. It is speculation.

    #2468

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    sensato post=2060 wrote: “And after perhaps a 1000 words of hemming and hawing about various interpretations of that question and what would be needed to answer it, in terms of actual measuring instruments, the authors—220 authors from 62 countries—concluded:”

    So let’s just cherry pick a phrase that seems to damage IPCC credibility out of the full context of their reply.

    “You KNOW all the experts have been telling us we’re doomed unless we go back to the forests and start eating roots and tubers.”

    And let’s add a final nail to the IPCC coffin with a lie.

    Actually, the phrase was used PRECISELY in context. it was intended to mean EXACTLY what it was portrayed to mean.

    Shed the emotions and feelings and accept the data points.

    Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming since 1995

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250872/Climategate-U-turn-Astonishment-scientist-centre-global-warming-email-row-admits-data-organised.html

    * Data for vital ‘hockey stick graph’ has gone missing
    * There has been no global warming since 1995
    * Warming periods have happened before – but NOT due to man-made changes

    The Great Global Warming Swindle – Documentary Film

    https://video.zita.be/video-galerij/blancostemrecht/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle_Documentary_Film.aspx

    Bill Gates Admits Vaccines Are Used for Human Depopulation

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WQtRI7A064

    What, exactly, do you think that ZERO CO2 emissions per human actually means?

    I suggest you inform yourself so that you can actually cite sources when you try and make an argument instead of creating false arguments out of whole cloth.

    CO2 is energy. CO2 is industrialization. Africa is in the state it is in because it isn’t allowed to “emit more CO2.”

    Bill Gates is WAY UP on the inner party list… He’s shilling the party line.

    De-industrialization for the West (but not criticizing slave labor in China or the incredible pollution that Big Industry leverage for profits over thee) and eventual immense poverty.

    Perhaps some will actually have to go to the forest (after oligarchs steal your homes) and eat roots and tubers before they realize the agenda. Others actually pay attention to what the system actually sells.

    Armed Troops Burn Down Homes, Kill Children To Evict Ugandans In Name Of Global Warming

    https://www.infowars.com/armed-troops-burn-down-homes-kill-children-to-evict-ugandans-in-name-of-global-warming/

    Pay attention. If you think a data point is wrong… debate it… with sources.

    But writing off a point of view after making no effort to understand where it is coming from is how people get manipulated into empowering criminals to loot everyone blind.

    #2471

    ashvin
    Participant

    Triv,

    Here’s what happened in this thread, in a nutshell:

    I posted my thoughts about the message underlying the Greek man’s suicide – the primary one being that he was correct to analogize L-PAP and the Greek government to a Nazi puppet regime (it was not “loose talk”, as Ambrose said). You then posted a response focusing on how the social engineers use language to control/manipulate (I think it’s safe to say it is your typical area of focus with regards to all/most issues discussed here), and made reference to how I use the word “communism” in an idealized way. I wasn’t really sure where you got that from, but I responded to clarify my thoughts on language and labels.

    Naturally, we ended up on the subject of Debt Dollar Tyranny and coordinated conspiracies. You have to understand that, at this point, I am just giving you my casual thoughts about that subject, which have little to do with what I was saying in my original post (which, ironically, was about how the Eurocrats have more malicious intent than Ambrose appears to give them credit for). These are thoughts that have been developed over the course of a few years, and only after I had exposed myself to many different sets of theories and evidence, or lack of evidence, to support them.

    It is also ironic that, among I&S and most financial bloggers, I am the one who has taken the most “conspiratorial elite” tone in my writing, and have even devoted multiple article and article series to the validity of those ideas. Indeed, I agree with a good deal of the points you have made in your comments. The only thing I was doing in my responses to you is explaining why I believe we cannot simplify everything that has happened into a box of conspiracy by the elites, not some random or arbitrary decision I have made, but a conclusion I have reached after mulling these things over for a long time.

    Then RE jumped in to say that I am arrogant and disrespectful of other peoples’ ideas because of that position, and I should not be calling those ideas hogwash. He, and perhaps you, seem to think the onus has been placed on me to explain exactly why I dismiss the theories of people such as David Icke and Alex Jones (when it comes to climate change/PO, for the latter). I, on the other hand, believe I was simply telling you the conclusions I have already reached about these issues, which have little to do with what I’m writing about in my posts. Therefore, I am not inclined to explain in detail how I have reached those conclusions.

    I told you exactly why I want to avoid going into a detailed debate over AGW – it is NOT because I am afraid to confront the flaws in my dogmatic beliefs. You can either trust that I am telling you the truth about that, or not. This is not an “appeal to authority” logical fallacy. It is me being honest with you about where I want to draw the line for myself on this discussion. I draw the line at the point after which I am in a position of making detailed arguments in favor of stuff like AGW, which really has nothing to do with what I’ve been writing about on TAE, and only stirs up emotionally heated discussion that usually turns many readers off.

    Other people are free to discuss these things on this thread or any other thread, but I don’t feel comfortable doing so right now. Again, you can either take that at face value, or tell yourself that I am just full of shit and trying to avoid the facts. If you elect for the latter, that’s fine with me. I feel that I have been more than fair in engaging these issues with you, but I have to cut myself off when it gets to the point that I am being requested to provide data/analysis on things that I never intended to discuss in the first place. If I adhered to all such requests, I would never have time to post about the things I want to post about.

    All of that being said, I have told RE that I will look at his Geotectonic heat transfer theory and give him my thoughts/issues as it related to AGW. I plan on doing that sometime this week. Aside from that, though, I think my contribution to the conspiracy discussion on this thread has run its course, as well as the constant defense of my writing style, personal character, open-mindedness, empathic ability and sense of respect for others against the assaults of RE/ben, and I do not want to continue going around in circles anymore. Like I said before, though, I think my discussion with you has been quite productive.

    It’s amazing to think this thread ended up with others [cough, RE, cough] questioning TAE as a site and talking about launching a poll on my popularity. Joke or no joke, could you imagine yourself ever stooping so low to suggest that, Triv, as a part of an otherwise intellectual discussion about conspiracy narratives? Yeah, I didn’t think so.

    #2472

    ashvin
    Participant

    NedKelly post=2059 wrote: “I think the people in the street, the multitude of people in the street, silent, with sad eyes, serious faces, which when you looked at those people you understood that everyone understands, all the decent people who were on the verge of making compromises.”

    Wow, we have somehow managed to return to the topic of the original post. Amazing.

    Ned, you raise a great point with that quote. An important aspect of the man’s suicide/message is the mutual knowledge it garners in those around him, or even those who have heard about it from far away. That was the subject of a post I wrote called, Occupy Movements of Mutual Knowledge.

    #2475

    Jack
    Member

    I was wondering what kind of sign there were before the 2008 shock

    Candace
    I said maybe the bursting of a bubble like a housing bubble

    TheTrivium4TW
    I dont follow the derivatives and I dont really know what they are exactly.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)

    Here it says futures, options
    What kind of derivatives should I be looking at
    Thanks

    #2477

    ashvin post=2077 wrote:
    It’s amazing to think this thread ended up with others [cough, RE, cough] questioning TAE as a site and talking about launching a poll on my popularity. Joke or no joke, could you imagine yourself ever stooping so low to suggest that, Triv, as a part of an otherwise intellectual discussion about conspiracy narratives? Yeah, I didn’t think so.

    Nobody, and I mean NOBODY not even Jimbo Quinn will stoop lower than I will stoop in a Napalm Contest 🙂 Remember there are NO RULES in a Knife Fight. While definitely there was plenty of substantive discussion going here WRT Conspiracy Theory, there was ALSO plenty of Smoke being thrown. When the Heat starts being thrown around a thread, I bring Nolan Ryan RE out of the Bullpen, and I’m talking the Nolan Ryan of my youth who was just as likely to bean a batter as strike him out. Once I flip on the Napalm Switch, I just have NO CONTROL of what the fingers will do on the keyboard. Its best generally just to Duck and Cover 🙂

    That being said, I’m glad you took it with reasonably good humour as it is just my way of saying Hello 🙂 After more than a decade writing on internet message boards, I have been involved in more Napalm contests than I can possibly count and I consider them to be just a part of the whole experience.

    Finally, I do look forward to reading your thoughts on Geotectonic Ocean Heat Transfer theory as opposed to the Anthropogenic hypothesis most commonly accepted as true. That could prove to be a interesting discussion, hopefully free of Napalm. LOL

    RE

    #2482

    Anonymous

    The count of self-immolating buddhists in Tibet is way up.
    It must take great resolve and belief in a just cause to sit there perfectly still and burn to death. The economic depression has also promoted self-immolation and other suicides out of desperation, people have killed themselves to lessen their indignity or to publicise their misery, making it a personal political statement against injustice.
    The guy’s suicide note states that he expects a revolution to happen in Greece because of the starvation auterity, and he’s right.
    Its a systematic commercial massacre and econocide obliterating the middle-class and starving the poor, but the eurocrats call it a necessary economic reform. The greeks must free themselves from the imposition of odious debt, if they are to survive.

    All men’s souls are immortal.
    But only the souls of the massful are immortal and divine.

    #2485

    Anonymous

    This greek guy is not a saint for killing himself as a political statement of desperation, but its an effective economic martyrdom, this kind of self sacrifice to express collective injustice is sometimes powerful enough to make people take notice. Hunger strikes won’t work as effectively to pressure political change or to shock people into awareness. Mass civil disobedience avoiding fatalities may function as a rallying point, but maybe only when the suffering is personalised and made highly visible by example.

    Ashvin is okay, his style of analysis is mostly adequate and sometimes insightful, he challenges some of my assertions and makes me think.
    Criticism of his dismissiveness are also valid, his resistance against some expressions of ideas has gotten more pronounced and is not always perfectly reasoned, I guess, but on average he’s not so terrible.

    @TheTrivium
    I’m aware that the trivium is an indispensible didactic and analytical tool, and I try to avoid logical fallacies, but logic dictates that it is possible to have situations where an appeal to formal logic to dismiss arguments can become recursively fallacious as as appeal to the authority of such logic.

    #2497

    Candace
    Member

    @jack

    “I’m guessing another high magnitude earthquake and/or tsunami.”

    Sorry Jack, I was just being flippant and referencing a thread I posted earlier. I have no useful insight to offer.

    Candace

    #2503

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Hi Ash,

    My view, right or wrong, is that the economics exert tremendous control on the behaviour of people and the Debt Dollar Tyrants have, by far, the most power over economics because they’ve been asset stripping the whole of society for 100 years running.

    Think of it this way. If I had control over every major corporation and and almost everyone in government whom I shower with wealth and positive media coverage, exactly who would be able to rise against me an beat me back when I *really* wanted something?

    My observation is there is only one group – and that’s an angry populace that will kick the Big Finance Capital operatives out of office and mess up the continuity they seem to value. But even that is limited – what was it 999-1 against bailing out Big Finance Capital front banking companies?

    BTW, I’m convinced that JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs are controlled by the very same interests. Not that all those interests are 100% aligned on all issues, but they are aligned when it comes to shafting society right now.

    Even when they get beat back, they’ll just repackage it. They couldn’t get carbon taxes passed in Congress, so Obama implements via the bureaucracy. The poor and middle class get soaked and GE, a corporate front for Big finance Capital (think curtain in Wizard of Oz), gets waivers so they they can buy up competitor assets for cheap and charge TOP DOLLAR since their competition has been regulated away.

    This is the system.

    There is more than one issue related to AGW… How significant is it and what to do about it are probably the two most important.

    Regardless of the debate on the former (BTW, I’m undecided and nobody has been able to convince me one way or another and the head IPCC guy just came out and said “no significant warming” since 1996, but nobody pro folks want to discuss that fact), the “elites” (I hate that word, these people are psychopathic crooks) are 100%, absolutely trying to enrich themselves and impoverish everyone else with the “solution” they promote to no end.

    So even if AGW is significant, there is still a conspiracy to rig the solution so that the insiders make billions and the poor and middle class get dramatically more poor.

    I never hear anyone separating the issues – so the flow seems to go… I believe in AGW, everyone who doesn’t is a kook, therefore the system’s solution is good and I support it.

    You can support AGW and not support the narrative solution that will stick a fork in us.

    Re: RE.

    My recommendation is to not take him personally. I don’t think he realizes that you might actually have feelings. 😉

    I think he’s in “competition mode” – I think you said you played basketball in your podcast with TEE. Have you ever entered that hyper-competitive mode where you aren’t about to take something you perceive as crap from anyone and are much quicker to express an opinion (in the heat of battle, of course)?

    I think RE’s in that mode… hyper-competitive mode.

    I recommend just registering that in your head and keeping that in mind goign forward.

    Having said that, I do think he has a point… once you start name calling a POV, you have essentially shut out that POV – even if it is right.

    I’m not into the reptile thing, either. The hollow moon thing has me lost. But I still think Icke is well meaning and fighting on the right side of history – even if I disagree on the likelihood of something that sounds “out there.” I also think Icke can lay down evidence to support his view, but I don’t make the same leaps of logic as he does. I actually appreciate some of his other insight, just not the part related to reptiles and hollow moons. IMHO, he’s done a decent job of reverse engineering the system of economic and propaganda control.

    Having said that, I think you are 100% wrong if you think the insiders aren’t leveraging AGW (significant or not, it doesn’t matter in this case) to game the system at the expense of everyone else.

    I mentioned the $1 billion the inner party stole from the UK without eliminating any emissions at all. Oh, and the lost jobs to the society that has to pay the $1 billion so they could lose their jobs. Yeah – that’s a solution… to enrich the insider cronies at the expense of everyone else!

    I’m convinced that’s EXACTLY what they are doing based on the evidence and the nature of the systems they are creating and selling… and we can stay out of the AGW debate (IMHO, it is incredibly complex) but still address how the insider psychopaths have latched onto the idea to screw over everyone else.

    Who owns the carbon trading market systems? Who rigs the current stock and bond market? Who will rig the carbon trading systems? Who would enshrine monopolies by giving their corporate fronts carbon credits and keeping them from their competition? Who never complains about the #1 source of carbon emissions – never ending war with Pentagon lunch guests and Jewish grandchildren of ADL Directors?

    I think Nicole has made a decisions to stay on message and avoid the conspiracy theories and conspiracy facts, but I do think she is well aware of conspiracies. Someone who says, “the system *is* corruption” knows all about conspiracy, even if she avoids engaging discussions of such.

    That’s a good start to see what the inner party is trying to execute here.

    #2505

    TheTrivium4TW post=2109 wrote:

    Re: RE.

    My recommendation is to not take him personally. I don’t think he realizes that you might actually have feelings. 😉

    I think he’s in “competition mode” – I think you said you played basketball in your podcast with TEE. Have you ever entered that hyper-competitive mode where you aren’t about to take something you perceive as crap from anyone and are much quicker to express an opinion (in the heat of battle, of course)?

    I think RE’s in that mode… hyper-competitive mode.

    I recommend just registering that in your head and keeping that in mind goign forward.

    Having said that, I do think he has a point… once you start name calling a POV, you have essentially shut out that POV – even if it is right.

    RE has basically spent way too many years debating way too many topics with way too many people to any longer have any real good grasp on what offends anyone or how to play by the Marquis de Queensbury Rules. I lose it all the time and get positively unbearable. Its part of my charm. LOL.

    Be it known here no matter how vitriolic I will get that I never really harbor any ill will against any opponent in an argument. I don’t hold a grudge except on real rare occasions where somebody is persistently an asshole. Mainly, I just refuse to be out-Napalmed by anyone. If I detect subtle napalm like snarky replies, I return with a bigger gun, or sometimes thermonuclear prose. If you argue with me, you have to be real careful about how you phrase the posting, because I have a very short fuse. When it gets lit, I go ballistic. This is my nature, its how I post on the internet. I have been banned many times from many boards because of this propensity for going full tilt mean in an argument.

    I will say for the record I agree with about 90% of what Ashvin writes, and I actually do like some of the more academic metaphors also. However the 10% of the time he writes stuff I find objectionable is what causes the friction. It will always be there, and it occassionally will flare up into a napalm contest. That is the nature of internet arguments, I know this after so may years pursuing the hobby.

    Finally, as I did over on DD, I will apologize here for the Low Blow of my “poll”. It was over the top and uncalled for, I dropped a Nuke on a Brushfire for no good reason. Dumbass move on my part.

    RE

    #2514

    ashvin
    Participant

    TheTrivium4TW post=2109 wrote: So even if AGW is significant, there is still a conspiracy to rig the solution so that the insiders make billions and the poor and middle class get dramatically more poor.

    I never hear anyone separating the issues – so the flow seems to go… I believe in AGW, everyone who doesn’t is a kook, therefore the system’s solution is good and I support it.

    Well you haven’t been hanging out with the right crowd, then. I have always maintained that the TPTB will use real (naturally evolving) AND manufactured (top-down coordinated) crises to their own advantage. That is what “disaster capitalism” is all about. There is not much difference between Katrina and AGW, in that sense. So I agree with you that the “solutions” proposed for AGW are both entirely inadequate and designed to benefit the minority elites with vast influence over the legislative/executive processes.

    Like I said before, Triv, I have written about many of the points you raise in your posts. We are in agreement about many things. And RE said he agrees with 90% of what I write… so I guess I agree with 90% of what he writes. So, really, there is not much substantive disagreement going on here. It is mostly a disagreement over making unwarranted assumptions and attaching personal labels, and I wouldn’t expect anyone here to cop to being an arrogant, closed-minded, self-involved Ahole.

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