Debt Rattle July 30 2021


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    Paul Gauguin Van Gogh painting sunflowers 1888   • CDC: Delta Variant Spreads As Easily As Chickenpox, Causes More Severe Infection (CNN) • CDC E
    [See the full post at: Debt Rattle July 30 2021]


    I’ve been trying to compile the TAE Summary post from a couple of days back into a table. The perfection of TAE’s (playing the gender pronoun game..) matching the competing narratives was sublime. But after I’d copied/pasted into a table I realise what was needed was a column for “why”.
    Obviously the vast majority of people couldn’t care less, but for those whose mental constructs are amenable to tables, I think it’s a useful construct. Not sure if it’ll post in this format, but trying:
    The Mainstream Narrative The Counter Narrative Why?
    – It is not known where Covid 19 originated but the most likely origin is the transmission from an animal to humans – Covid 19 was most likely created in a lab in China or the US There is no evidence of the interim stages required for a bat virus totransform into Covid
    – Covid 19 has killed 600K people in the US – Covid 19 kills people but far fewer than the official count Covid cases have been inflated by using PCR tests at cycles they produce false results
    – Trump botched the Covid 19 response costing many lives – Almost all officials in government have botched the Covid 19 response, costing many lives The international response has been incredibly uniform, with releasing far too little information(and far to late) for their actions to be challenged. Qualified dissenting scientific voices have been routinely silenced for challenging the government narrative
    – Many deaths were preventable if we’d tested, masked, tracked and locked down better – Most deaths were preventable if we had investigated and deployed early treatments including vitamin D, zinc, hydrochloroquine and ivermectin Evidence for the effectiveness of Hydroxychloroquine was available very early, but since Trump voiced it, the media went into overdrive to disagree. Numerous (safe and effective) treatment have been demonstrated since then and discussion of all have been suppressed. The nb: The Covid “Vaccines” could not be deployed under law if these alternative treatmentswwere admitted to be effective.
    – Vaccines are good and have eradicated polio, measles, whooping cough and other diseases – Vaccines are good and have eradicated polio, measles, whooping cough and other diseases There is no argument here, despite many mainstream vaccine “boosters” pretending counter narrative people “don’t trust vaccines”
    – Vaccines against Covid 19 are safe and effective and have saved many lives with only minor, acceptable adverse reactions – The Covid 19 vaccines however are not actually vaccines but gene therapy and have not been adequately tested. The Covid 19 vaccines have serious side effects including death and other as yet unknown consequences which are not being investigated and are suppressed by the media There have been more deaths from the Covid vaccines in the US this year *tha the total of all deaths from all vaccine in the two decades prior”. Regardless of whether there is justification for deploying the Covid jabs, stating they are “safe” is quite simply a lie by all historical standards
    – There are no effective treatments for Covid 19 besides the vaccines – We need to defeat Covid 19 and the best way to do this is through early outpatient treatment with known, effective drugs and known drug protocols for hospitalized patients See above. There is ample evidence from countries that are using these treatments such as Indonesia, India etc that Ivermectin, Hydroxychloroquine etc are effective and safe (they’ve been used for decades with negligible and well-understood side effects)
    – Covid is spread by droplets and aerosols from infected people, both symptomatic and asymptomatic, and can be spread through momentary casual contact both indoors and outdoors – Covid 19 is primary spread by aerosols from symptomatic and pre-symptomatic people, mostly in indoor situations with poor ventilation where peoples spend a long time together The latest studies show that previously-vaccinated people who contract Covid (and none of the jabs are even claimed by manufacturers to prevent recipients subsequently catching Covid) sometimes carry a viral load many times that of unvaccinated people, without showing major symptoms. We are actively creating more effective “super-spreaders” with the “vaccinations”, than any were without them. This has *never been a characteristic of any previously approved vaccine
    – Children and young adults are at risk form Covid 19 and can spread the disease and should take the same precautions and measures as adults – Children and young adults are at low risk from Covid 19 and need take fewer precautions and measures but should be treated with drug protocols if infected Because Covid is far more dangerous to elderly people (unlike many previous pandemics such as Spanish flue, which were highly dangerous to young people), the risk from the vaccines is far greater than the risk from Covid
    – We need to do whatever it takes to defeat Covid 19 including frequent testing, mass vaccination, continued locked downs and wearing masks – Masks, distancing and lockdowns are mostly ineffective 20 years of science has previously said that masks are effectively useless for preventing transmission of viruses. Faunci et al said exactly the same at the start of the Covid scare. The subsequent science has not changed. A tiny number of studies have concluded otherwise and are being cherry-picked to support the scare narrative
    – The best information comes from the CDC, FDA and NIH – The best information comes from front line doctors who actually treat patients and experienced researchers who have no financial interest in big pharma The pursuit of science is defined as a controversial pursuit, where nothing can be proved for certain, and everything can (and should) be challenged. When anyone states “the science is settled” they are – by definition – lying. Science, by definition says “our best understand right now is…”
    – The mainstream media warns us of the dangers of Covid 19 but unfortunately many do not take these warnings seriously – The CDC, FDA and NIH are largely compromised because of their association and funding by drug companies The “warnings” have been an almost-constant stream of fear-mongering, presented without context or critique. Many people who aren’t able to research on their own have absolutely no idea there are informed voices with strongly opposing views. These views are almost never represented in the mainstream media. Rememer in 2001 when media voices said without any doubt “Saddam has chemical weapons”? Except he didn’t, as was reluctantly admitted after ~1 million Iraqi’s were killed in the gulf war. That demonstrates the scale of lies that can be successfully told by the media
    – As usual, conspiracy theorists and nut-jobs abound – The mainstream media is also compromised by their association with big pharma and the government The enormous sums of money provided by the Bill Gates Foundation and pharmaceutical companies into scientific research give them enormous leverage. Imagine as a scientist the possibility of never having your work funded again for publicaly speaking out and you can get a sense of how much power these “grants” provide to the grantors
    – Antivaxxers are against all vaccines are now also against the Covid 19 vaccines – The truth about Covid 19 is suppressed and labeled conspiracy theory in order to support the mainstream narrative People who are anti vaccinations (anti-vaxxers) are probably anti-covid vaccines. But to say all anti-Covid vaccine people are anti avxxers is like saying all Europeans are Brexiters. It’s a lie attempting to smear anti-jabbers by portraying them as nutters
    – Antivaxxers have believed phony information disseminated by scurrilous, right wing charlatans – People who insist that the vaccines are the only way to fight Covd 19 have believed lies told to them by the MSM from big pharma and a corrupt medical establishment A slander which is a variation of the above arguments
    – These people cost many lives and are the reason Covid still spreads and mutates – The vaccine narrative has cost many lives and ineffective vaccines are responsible for the continued spread and mutation of Covid 19 The argument that those that oppose vaccines are responsible for the continued spread of Covid is false on several counts: 1. the Covid jabs do not stop people getting or spreading Covid (the manufacturer’s data sheet is very explicit about this). Some governemnts are telling the vaccinated to keep wearing masks which proves this point!
    – They are responsible for continued lock downs and the further decimation of the economy – The fallacious mainstream narrative is responsible for all lock downs and the decimation of the economy Almost every piece of information from the mainstream experts, from the initial modelling (incredibly inaccurate and overblown) to the recommended responses has been wrong. In any other scientific field, based on their record of predictions, the scientists would be discredited and ashamed. But the politicians have been covering for them, since their careers are also at risk. Look with critical eyes, and it’s been junk “science” and “advice” from beginning till now. Repeating the same actions and expecting different results is commonly understood as madnees
    – They are selfish, evil and anti-science – The people who push the mainstream narrative are evil and anti-science; The people who believe this narrative are naive, dogmatic and anti-science It’s a nasty, rude and sometimes extreme shock to realise that those we’ve trusted in good faith for their expertise to keep us safe are in fact incompetent. But ask yourself – what is worse? To realise halfway up Erebus that your guides are poorly advised and equiped and turning back? Or to have been told that, but to follow them to your death because you can’t take responsibility for asking the hard questions before going any further?
    – The Covid 19 response is all about trying to get us back to normal as quickly as possible – The Covid 19 response is all about money, power and control
    – All people are at risk for Covid and should take the same precautions if for no other reason than out of solidarity – Old people and those with co-morbidities like diabetes are at greater risk for Covid and should take greater precautions and be afforded extra protections Covid primarily affects the elderly. To acknowledge that is not to say we shoukd abondon them to them to death. Its the opposite! Instead if all this idiotic protection around people at little risk, lets spend the time and money protecting those at real risk. In NZ and several other countries there’s been an uttlerly stupid idea that we can eliminate Covid – mabe we can, but the cost to all NZ citizens are astronomical – it is one if the more ridiculous ideas in modern times, and countries such as Singapore who previously emraced it are now abandoning it
    – Long Covid is real and the best protection is to get vaccinated which diminishes Covid symptoms – Long Covid is real and is best prevented by prophylactic, outpatient or in hospital treatment with recommended drug protocols


    OK.. that’s a fail. Any suggestions how a table can be embedded or attached to a WordPress post?


    Faucci saying ‘we need to protect the children’ is freaky. It’s psychotic. He at best has no belief in innate health or the bodies’ own ability to fit in the puzzle of the world. At worst he will be remembered as a mass murderer – at the very least for Ivermectin suppression.
    It is a crazy world. If we get lockdown 6.0 I will go hard on the mushrooms.

    absolute galore

    Huskynut– I believe attachments are limited to 512kb, which isn’t much. Might be best saving it as a jpeg image and embedding.Maybe it can be embiggened, or link it to a bigger version somewhere else.

    Dr. D

    “CDC: Delta Variant Spreads As Easily As Chickenpox, Causes More Severe Infection (CNN)”

    Um, CDC, that’s not what your own data says. Are you illiterate? Or just really, really stupid? “I assure you, I am NOT high.” — W. in South Park.

    ““I think people need to understand that we’re not crying wolf here. This is serious,” CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky told CNN. “It’s one of the most transmissible viruses we know about. Measles, chickenpox, this — they’re all up there.”

    Yes, that’s why everyone has already been exposed and have natural immunity. I mean, unless it’s NOT transmissible. Pick one.

    CDC Expected To Announce Friday That Vaccines Don’t Work on Delta Variant (CTH)”

    CDC announces, “Vaccines don’t work.” So you MUST get one anyway. Obviously.

    By the way, “Crying wolf?” You mean like crying on national TV for a spike that didn’t materialize at all, ever? That kind of crying wolf? Credibility = 0. Gone in 60 Seconds.

    And they really had to pick “yellow” for their vaccine badges and bands? Really? No other color? Okey-dokey.

    “US Capitol Police Walk Back Order to Arrest those without a Mask (JTN)”

    Hey, don’t they need to pass a law before arresting people? Or is that too 15th century? …As I’ve said since day one of their “mandates” and “martial law.”

    BTW, that’s what the courts said about Eviction Moratoriums. They’re illegal, and not ONLY because the CDC is not the government. Even if Congress themselves passed it, it would still be illegal.

    “Biden Mandates All Federal Workers Must Be Vaccinated… Except Postal Workers (ZH)”

    Just the ones that go door to door and touch everything. Got it. That was just one example of my saying “welp, everybody’s going to get it,” in January 2020, 18 months ago. The other was if you like “groceries” and “eating.”

    “German Court Tells Facebook To Reinstate Deleted Posts (”

    If they’re either a monopoly OR violated people’s civil rights, shouldn’t there be a consequence? One is breaking them up, the other is the sort of crippling civil suit that bankrupts them. Restoring posts that are 5 years old by the time the court acts is not a deterrent, it’s a help.

    Yesterday’s offered link added:

    “Chris Martenson and Adam Taggart have been converging on for years, They said that the current conventional assumption, that the next 20 years would be a somewhat straight-forward linear extrapolation of the previous 20, was wrong. They didn’t know what the catalyst would be, nor did any like-minded commentators such as Charles Hugh Smith, James Kunstler, John Michael Greer, or even myself, when I intuited in Unicorn Winter that “Ground Hog Day was coming”.

    This is about Gibson and “The Jackpot” in his novel where people push between parallel universes. “’The Jackpot’ is where we arrive when we run out of road to kick the can.”

    Welcome to The Jackpot

    That was easy to see for more reasons than I can count, but the “4th Turning” is one of them. Actually it’s been frustratingly NOT diverting from a straight-line Business-as-usual. Like when will anything change around here?

    absolute galore

    “We have a pandemic because of the unvaccinated, and they’re sowing enormous confusion,” Biden said. “And there’s only one thing we know for sure, if those other 100 million people got vaccinated, we’d be in a very different world. So get vaccinated. If you haven’t, you’re not nearly as smart as I said you were.” “Joe Biden”

    I don’t care how senile he is, this is absolutely disgusting. It’s a lie on so many levels. And it basically is throwing gasoline on the growing movement to ostracize and punish people who choose not to be vaccinated.

    “one thing we know for sure, if those other 100 million people got vaccinated, we’d be in a very different world” No. One thing we know for sure is everyone in your administration is lying through their teeth. They are bald-faced liars lying about their own data sets. Not even manipulating out of context, just making shit up.

    1. Evidence is mounting that the vaccinated have as much or more viral load as the unvaccinated. And they cannot blame us for the Delta, that came from India.

    2. Most of the world population has not been vaccinated. Not everybody lives in San Francisco and New York City. The only thing vaccinating the rest of the U.S. population will do is give Big Pharma the entire citizenry to sell booster shots to every year from now on.

    Everyone in the Biden Admin is in the service of Big Pharma. Everyone is trying to protect themselves from the massive fucking mess they have created beginning with Day One and the Fauci emails we are not allowed to redacted. But there is no free press (other than Tucker Carlson) to bring any of this malfeasance to the light of day. They will continue to blame the unvaxxed for this latest surge. It is totally what Ivan Illich predicted, the medical establishment having long passed his “second watershed” moment, it exists only to perpetuate itself.

    And also as he said, as the crises mount, the technocracy must exert ever more control over citizens. These people will do anything and everything to absolve themselves, so I am skeptical of any sort of reckoning any time soon. Some other disaster will roll out to change the subject if things get too unmanageable. What. A.Freaking. Poop. Show.


    “CDC To Drop ‘Gold Standard’ PCR Test (JTN) ”

    Reiner Fuellmich’s entire legal case pivots around the bogus PCR test.

    #1 He says that without ‘cases’ the ‘Global Health Emergency’ due to the SARS-CoV-2 ‘virus’ could NOT have been declared.

    #2 And without the ‘Global Health Emergency’ there was no authority for lockdowns or masks or shutting down the main street economy.

    #3 And without the ‘Global Health Emergency’ the Emergency Authorization would not have been issued for the ‘vaccines’.

    That straight forward, 1 2 3

    So why is this crap still standing?

    Why is this Plandemic still the poster child of the Big Lie?

    Große Lüge

    The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie so “colossal” that no one would believe that someone “could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.”

    “Hitler claimed the technique was used by Jews to blame Germany’s loss in World War I on German general Erich Ludendorff, who was a prominent nationalist political leader in the Weimar Republic. Historian Jeffrey Herf says the Nazis used the idea of the original big lie to turn sentiment against Jews and bring about the Holocaust….”

    For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
    ~ Newton’s Third Law

    The Big Lie Plandemic is going to balance out one way or another.

    ~ What goes around comes around ~


    People living a giant grotesque Lie day after day after day will have their Souls rot.


    If the vaccines don’t work, then what’s happening in the UK?

    Just the summer, perhaps?

    those darned kids

    Are you tired of feeling like your arm has been ripped off by a chimpanzee?

    Are you tired of feeling the ice hot push into your already aching shoulder?

    Well, leave those booster troubles behind!

    CDCPfizer, your trusted brand for all things Corona, is proud to introduce new “Mask Pockets Plus™*”

    Imagine, 8 science approved layers of ultra-soft organic Napa Valley Cotton woven together with our time release KrystalKnight PowerPlus Vaxxydrops™, giving you the proven protection you’ve come to love from CDCPfizer AND luxurious comfort.

    Oh, and did we mention how stylish they are?

    Take it from Uncle Tony: “Mask Pockets Plus are your best answer for protecting against all things Corona, even the dreaded Walrus and Narwal 7 variants.”

    *with aloe!

    a kullervo

    Carefully crafted plan or paroxysmal collective madness* – does it matter?
    The real goalposts are unbudgeable, inexorable and were fixed from day one.
    Pain and pleasure are transient, death the only certainty.
    People clinging to the elusive while acting as if the definite doesn’t exist remains an enigma.

    * Unfortunately, madness has become omnipresent on both aisles of the debate, as one can clearly see by the rampant obsession amongst the TAE commentariat.

    those darned kids

    If the vaccines work, then what’s happening in India?

    [worldometer link to india stats]

    Just ivermectin, perhaps?

    a kullervo

    I get it: obsession is good for the business (as usual.)

    absolute galore

    “The irony is it’s not the dumb rubes in Missouri who don’t understand the nature of this disease,” Gregg Keller, a longtime Republican consultant in Missouri. “Missourians understand this far better than these supposed medical experts we’ve been giving tens of millions of dollars every year.”

    Party Hardy in MO


    TAE does it again – a great selection of opinion and facts

    Parallel universes

    the vaccine doesn’t work (against the Delta variant)

    ancient battle continues – survival of immune system – natural immunity

    the science has changed

    fight the “hot spots”

    the pandemic is over

    Ivermectin works
    American Journal of Therapeutics: May/June 2021 – Volume 28 – Issue 3 – p e299-e318
    doi: 10.1097/MJT.0000000000001377

    Finally, the many examples of ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified. The same study found that ivermectin has been used safely in pregnant women, children and infants.


    madamski cafone

    “If true, it would be game changing (a first?!). A virus that becomes more transmissible and more lethal at the same time. For now, don’t buy it.”

    This looks like what Van Den Bossche describes as a likely outcome of das jab: variants both more infectious and virulent.

    “KrystalKnight PowerPlus Vaxxydrops™”



    those darned kids – do they sell the entire range of skin tones? I wan’t the pine mist one if it is a sale item. Oh and the happy-face print in Democrat colours would be nice too.


    The Big Lies – Free

    Covid Testings
    Covid Vaccines
    Covid hospitalizations

    Back to normal


    What a bunch of lying fear-mongering vaccine witchdoctors. Every one of them.

    By the way, here’s the new variants of concern report out of the uk (technical briefing 19).

    On table 5, we can assess the case fatality rate for Delta. If you’re under 50, it is EXACTLY the same whether you are vaccinated or not: 0.03% of cases result in death.

    Proportion of vaccinated vs non-vaccinated in cases counts is roughly equivalent to the proportion of the population vaccinated or not vaccinated. The proportion of fully vaccinated seems under represented in the data which would go be either due to vaccine efficiency, or alternatively the 11% of cases which are not linked to a vaccine status could simply be fully vaccinated individuals.

    Mister Roboto

    @democritus: The Delta Variant is a lot less deadly, despite all the scare-mongering going around about it.


    Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male

    The US government nazi like experiment ran from 1932 to 1972

    Here is a former Marine speaking to the Bedpan Biden demand for total vaccination.

    This Man Is Not Running Anywhere . . . He Is Ready For Mandatory “Vaccines”

    those darned kids

    in response to “absolute galore”:

    “Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,” Bokonon tells us. “He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.”


    We are all asymptomatic carriers now. I was beginning to miss being the only maskless individual in my local Kroger taking on the mask bullies.

    The unvaccinated will be the new Jews. Ironically, Israel tripped over themselves to be Pfizer/BioNtech guinea Pigs. BioNtech is a German Corporation none the less.

    Anybody remember the stock message boards “Silicon Investor” or “Raging Bull”?

    madamski cafone

    those darned kids made me look up bokonon. In the Seventh Book of Bokonon, we read:

    “The Seventh Book: Bokonon’s Republic
    [ “…a whole book about Utopias”. [ 126 ] ]

    “The hand that stocks the drug stores rules the world.

    “Let us start our Republic with a chain of drug stores, a chain of grocery stores, a chain of gas chambers, and a national game. After that we can write our Constitution.”

    absolute galore

    In response to my posting today, @ thosedarnedkids wrote: “Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,” Bokonon tells us. “He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.”

    I’m not certain if you are chastising me for the level of frustration expressed in my post this morning? If so, gee thank you a bunch! But A. I am not exactly full of murderous resentment–just disgust, disbelief, frustration. However, I am of the opinion that these are all symptoms and expressions of our decline, and as such ultimately cannot be assigned to particular characters as being responsible. That in no way precludes me from thinking these characters are reprehensible.

    And B. these are not “people who are ignorant.” I provided a handy list of all their faults in one of my posts yesterday or the day before if you care to check. (Stupidity is not ignorance.)

    madamski cafone

    absolute galore

    I’m pretty sure those darned kids refers to the medical bureaucrats chastized by the Missouri Republican consultant. 🙂

    absolute galore

    @thosedarnkids Or maybe it is some reference I don’t get regarding the situation in Lake Ozarks? But don’t worry either way I’m not removing you from my Christmas card list.

    absolute galore

    Okay, just saw Cafone’s posts. I confess the original quote from Bokonon is still not working for my brain…


    The WSJ article is gold: such support for the-medication-that-shall-not-be-named! But it’s behind a paywall and I don’t intend to send any of my AUD to Mr Murdoch.

    The entire text is available from a number of other websites, including in PDF format, and

    Get it while it’s hot and pass it on.

    Now I wait to see the nature and content of the counter-attack. Could even the mighty Murdoch press withstand it?


    The WSJ article is gold: such support for the-medication-that-shall-not-be-named! But it’s behind a paywall

    It wasn’t for me or I wouldn’t have quoted it.

    those darned kids

    er, sorry. sometimes a + b = october for me.

    my intent was to say the average person, especially those in flyoverworld, just seem to have a better grasp on what’s going on than so many of the highly educated people presented as experts.

    i was trying to agree. i like christmas cards.


    st. kurt is truly missed in these trying times. so it goes.

    madamski cafone

    “I confess the original quote from Bokonon is still not working for my brain…”

    Pedants with college degrees. Doctors dispensing bad/wrong/deceitful information because their fellow experts told them what to believe, and how could the average ignorant unwashed American possibly be smarter/know more than a college-degreed pedant?

    That is the attitude I see the Bokon quote describing.


    “how could the average ignorant unwashed American possibly be smarter/know more than a college-degreed pedant?”

    Read TAE


    Dr. D

    “Iceland’s Chief Epidemiologist Suggests COVID-19 Restrictions Could Last For Up To 15 Years”

    Here we are at 15 months, that’s what I said about “15 Days”. …Or until the sun burns out, either way.

    Am I crazy here, or everyone else? CDC clearly says “Vaccines don’t work.” Against Delta. They also clearly say “PCR tests don’t work and never did.” Tests are leaving in December. But we have “cases” rising worldwide, according to a test that doesn’t work.

    So no one has the slightest inclination to stop all this.

    Order now, operators standing by.

    Mr. House

    Restrict the movement of legal citizens because covid, but do not restrict movement of people trying to enter illegally for that very same reason, got it. Does it not seem like they are trying to destroy your faith in the institutions and the law on purpose? Prosecute one side for same thing as other side you don’t prosecute. When conducting actions like this and only enforcing the law for people you like, what are you trying to do/accomplish?

    madamski cafone

    Bureaucrats bloviating with all their media might does not a seafaring wind make. You can’t make a boat sail by mounting a giant fan on your deck and aiming it at the sails. The official colvid narrative has already been mortally wounded and is now spasming on deck like a hooked shark. It still hasd a nasty bite but it ain’t going anywhere but gone.

    The WSJ endorsed Ivermectin. Game over. Just residual slosh left. THe conservative backlash all this has created is just now visible on the sea horizon, a tsunami on the way.

    Soon, the water will recede and the experts will call it over: Covid Cured, more or less.

    And then, the tide will come back in, if people like Van Den Bossche are right, and if the genetic manufacture of protein spikes among the vaccinated proves as toxic as evidence strongly suggests.

    Things should get really interesting about then, I’m thinking.

    Mr. House

    Remember how Janet Reno thought killing 500,000 Iraqis was worth it, yet you think they care about 500,000 american dead due to a virus? If your entire city is burning down and you scream for .gov help they won’t come unless you force their hand, so anything they take a proactive approach to must be for some form of power grab, otherwise they wouldn’t be doing it.

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