Desperate European Bankster Puppets Exposed
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Even though it is obvious that the major banks wield tremendous influence over bureaucratic political systems worldwide, it is not often that you find
[See the full post at: Desperate European Bankster Puppets Exposed]
RE wrote: …Main problem of course remains all that nasty EXPOSURE Eurotrash Banks have to Greek Debt, not to mention all those nasty Derivatives set to EXPLODE as soon as Greece finally does miss a Bond Payment. So regardless of the fact Widows and Orphans might be starving in Greece, the ECB or IMF or ESM or some other cockamamie vehicle will pay off on Bonds FOR the Greek “People”, to “Help” them. No Euros will cross the Greek Border, but plenty will cross into the Vaults of JPMC, Goldman and Deutche Bank!
Anyhow, the nonsensical idea that the Euro problems or even the Greek MINISCULE ones were solved at any point in this long charade of Extend & Pretend is OFFICIALLY squashed here now, NO MEETING of Von Rumplestiltskin, Kukla, Fran and Ollie Rehn, Francoise Hollandaise Sauce or any other newly elected Eurotrash Pol is going to convince ANYBODY that ANY problems have been solved. They are SOL on Political and Economic Cards to play here now. The Clown Show has run its course here, so unfortunately the NEW Clowns will be sent in. The next bunch of Clowns are unlikely to be quite so funny as this last bunch…
John Ward on the Slog has reported to day that his sources have told him the prisoners in Greek prisons are receiving no food or rations. That in addition to no medicines, health care, education etc for the regular population. Some people in Athens have created public gardening plots for producing some “free” food. Is Greece the first act to be followed by the rest of Europe and finally the USA? What does it take for a storming of the Bastille?
While most writers on the subject seem to be in agreement that every thing is enacted to benefit the banks, I would like to address the ownership of said banks or masters of the puppetry above the scenes. If even the Dimons and Blankfeins, the Obamas, Hollandes, Merkels etc. are second tier or even below, who the hell are we talking about. Who is at the top of this mess. Now Ashvin, Re, you are pretty smart guys, and I know that you have strong opinions. So have a little courage and stop hiding in generalities. NAME SOME NAMES. Because when I become Robespierre, I will want to know who I am sending to the guillotine. No more milkmaids, but the real evil stuff. Now SAY IT! Who are they? Or who do you in all fallibility think THEY ARE?
Karpatok post=3270 wrote: While most writers on the subject seem to be in agreement that every thing is enacted to benefit the banks, I would like to address the ownership of said banks or masters of the puppetry above the scenes. If even the Dimons and Blankfeins, the Obamas, Hollandes, Merkels etc. are second tier or even below, who the hell are we talking about. Who is at the top of this mess. Now Ashvin, Re, you are pretty smart guys, and I know that you have strong opinions. So have a little courage and stop hiding in generalities. NAME SOME NAMES. Because when I become Robespierre, I will want to know who I am sending to the guillotine. No more milkmaids, but the real evil stuff. Now SAY IT! Who are they? Or who do you in all fallibility think THEY ARE?
I think you will be disappointed in your search for an ultimate mastermind. In a world of highly complex systems, human beings at all levels of society–including the very top–are buffeted by unforeseen forces and ultimately unable to control them. That isn’t to say that the rich and powerful aren’t incredibly opportunistic, but I’m convinced they take advantage of change rather than explicitly effecting such change. My concern is that the human need to search for mastermind geniuses behind our woes has a terrible track record in our history. We usually end up blaming entirely innocent groups of people. The SYSTEM needs to change, and we can be part of changing that system. Cutting off an individual matermind’s head will do nothing one way or the other (except add to another kind of evil).
OK, RE, granted that you announced the merger of RIT and the Rockefellers over at the kitchen sink at the Diner but isn’t there a little more to it than that? Previous Rothschild consolidation in Europe, and now purchase of 37% of Rockefeller by Rothschild Investment Trust, in order to have a bigger footprint in USA. Does the Vatican still own Bank of America or is that passe already. Come on, these revelations are leaving me breathless in anticipation. Flesh out the broader picture please and in the present time. We don,t have to go back to 1692 and reinvitation of the Userers to jolly old England.
What about our own individual responsiblity in this whole mess? We’re voters. We’re consumers. We have free will. I don’t want to blame the victim. But I also want to avoid wasting time on blaming Puff the Magic Dragon.
I have no doubt heads will roll before this is over. They will largely be symbolic gestures, and not necesarily true justice. Again, let’s recognize we are party to a big system that is corrupt, and we have enabled a lot of really corrupt people to make things worse and worse. Is it too trite to say “change starts with us”?
Sorry, Skip, but I’ve been dropping my Calvinism lately. I’m no victim.But I’m not responsible either, and you are just suggesting that we don’t make a very deep inquiry. I am convinced that what we were taught in school about , democracy, level playing field, raising oneself by one’s own bootstraps, right to vote, personal responsibility, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda, has been an enormous smokescreen to hide a few ugly realities. So what’s the tabu on talking about the bigger realities? You are also a smart guy. What are you afraid of? And BTW this isn’t Puff the Magic Dragon. Let’s hear your analysis of who is behind debt slavery and usury. If it’s a waste of time for you then you are excused. But I really want to understand the full system if you don’t mind.
The Rothschilds and Rockefellers present clear and obvious targets, but even they are just Tip of the Iceberg here.
“Ownership” of the world as it is constructed is tiered up through many layers of Holding Companies. The paperwork on this stuff in some cases is hundreds of years old and buried so deep in the vaults in the City of London it will take decades of forensic accounting to determine who actually owns what and how the money flow gets directed, if it is even possible to do that at all.
If *I* knew who all was at the pinnacle of the pyramid, I’d surely name the names, and surely also come down with Bullet meets Brain disease or an untimely Coronary.
IMHO, the only way to work your way to the Top of the Pyramid is to start with who by virtue of what is obvious you know have a connection to the next tier up the pyramid. You bring them in, one by one in front of the Inquisition and you give them a good reason to TALK. If they really do NOT know who is above them and have no worthwhile information, this is unfortunate but you can’t make an Omelette without breaking a Few Eggs, and besides that they are GUILTY in their own right anyhow of their own set of crimes against humanity.
Now, SB might consider such an Inquisition not to have worthwhile value, but IMHO it does. First off, even if they are not the TOP level VERMIN, they still make the Kitchen an unpleasant place to cook, so they need to be exterminated also. Besides that, on a social level, it is important to reinforce to people that Greed does NOT pay. Really, how many people do you think would strive to become Billionaires if on a Nightly Basis Reality TV was showing Pigman Executions? I know I would have a low motivation level to strive for that if I was a kid watching TV.
The whole problem we have here is that for Millenia we have acquiesced to the idea that Greed DOES pay, we never got control of the infestation from the get go here. Now the Earth is INFESTED with VERMIN so you can’t fix this just with a few Perp Walks here.
Now, I do believe that it is possible to Repent and do Penitence for your Sins, so any Pigman who willingly comes forward to divest himself of his ill gotten gains and agrees to do penitence for the rest of his life scrubbing out cesspools can be allowed to live. This is fair and IMHO GENEROUS, considering the fact prior to repentance said Pigman probably was responsible for the deaths of 1000s of starving children.
I do also suggest the Inquistion has some Cutoffs here in the early stages. You could set a minimum net worth of say $1B at the beginning of Criminals to bring before the Auto da Fe, this alone would fill up the docket pretty well with 10,000 or more people I suspect. That will take some time to work through.
Eventually here you will locate the top of the pyramid cockroaches. May take some time, but persistence pays off.
Bring in the Orkin Man.
RE
Furthermore, I don’t see how retiring to a sweet permaculture doomstead is going to be change we can all believe in. I don’t believe there is one mastermind genius behind it all either, but I do believe that a relatively few very wealthy, powerful and uncaring evil people have a chokehold on society such that anything less than revolution will not help. The Augean stables need to be turned upside down to wash out the filth and if a few heads roll in the process in the process, that’s just the way it is. Maybe Marie Antoinette was innocent for example, but she kept walking on by and refused to look. So it depends on what you call innocent heads that roll. If ordinary folk are complicit simply for being within the system, then what are the movers and shakers? I want to give them a face so I’ll know to aim at them and not their go betweens.
Karpatok post=3278 wrote: Furthermore, I don’t see how retiring to a Maybe Marie Antoinette was innocent for example, but she kept walking on by and refused to look. So it depends on what you call innocent heads that roll. If ordinary folk are complicit simply for being within the system, then what are the movers and shakers? I want to give them a face so I’ll know to aim at them and not their go betweens.
Marie Antoinette was GUILTY, merely by being complicit and a part of the French Arsitocracy of the time. From Wikipedia”
Marie Antoinette ( /məˈriː æntwəˈnɛt/ or /æntwɑːˈnɛt/; French pronunciation: [maʁi ɑ̃twanɛt]; baptised Maria Antonia Josepha Johanna (or Maria Antonia Josephina Johanna[1]); 2 November 1755 – 16 October 1793) was an Archduchess of Austria and the Queen of France and of Navarre. She was the fifteenth and penultimate child of Holy Roman Empress Maria Theresa and Holy Roman Emperor Francis I.
In April 1770, on the day of her marriage to Louis-Auguste, Dauphin of France, she subsequently became Dauphine of France. Marie Antoinette assumed the title of Queen of France and of Navarre when her husband, Louis XVI of France, ascended the throne upon the death of Louis XV in May 1774. After seven years of marriage, she gave birth to a daughter, Marie-Thérèse Charlotte, the first of four children.
Initially charmed by her personality and beauty, the French people generally came to dislike her, accusing “L’Autre-chienne” (a pun in French playing with the words “Autrichienne” meaning Austrian (woman) and “Autre-chienne” meaning Other bitch) of being profligate and promiscuous,[2] and of harboring sympathies for France’s enemies, particularly Austria, her country of origin.[3]
After the royal family’s flight to Varennes, Louis XVI was deposed and the monarchy abolished on 21 September 1792; the royal family was subsequently imprisoned at the Temple Prison. Nine months after her husband’s execution, Marie Antoinette was herself tried, convicted of treason, and executed by guillotine on 16 October 1793.
You know, even if she never said “let them eat cake”, from all historical records we know of Marie never was penitent for the life of priviledge she led while the rest of French society was in the Toilet. A Monarchy is not deposed until after many years the pain for the soicety as a whole has become unbearable.
You take on great RESPONSIBILTY when you are Elite in your society for the well being of all. If your stewardship is bad, many people DIE. You must be accountable for that, and the only true accountability for it is that you ALSO must DIE. Marie Antoinette got what she DESERVED. In time, so will the Elite of this time period.
RE
And the correct phrase for that responsibility is Noblesse Oblige. When I was young I called it the obligation of the nobles once in a serious discussion with my older sister. It is in the end, the obligation of a person of priviledge to see to the well being of others not so fortunate.It is a serious responsibility that attends one’s position and is not to be taken lightly in time frittered away.
Say you can finally winnow down your search for the three or four genius masterminds behind the problems now facing billions of people. Then what? You think that by cutting off their heads the problem is solved? Obviously not! There are so many more that will happily take their place. So then, I suppose you’d argue you’d have to cut off more than three or four heads. How many exactly? Hundreds? Thousands? What degree of culpability for our predicament shall we use to determine their fate? How on earth would the degree of culpability be measured?! No. I really do love RE’s contributions here, and I have a feeling we’d get along rather well as neighbours (I’ve lived in the far north myself), but I wholly disagree that the search is worthwile for these mythical evil genius masterminds, who apparently manipulate even the Jamie Dimons and Jon Corzines like helpless puppets on a string. And I’ll say it again: there isn’t any such ultiamate evil genius at the top of the pyramid anyhow. It’s just rich people doing what rich people do–that is being human like the rest of us. The whole greedy lot. We just haven’t done a very good job at keeping things in check.
I’m not saying we don’t need to get revolutionary on some asses. And some people deserve long jail sentences. But the whole thing is far more systemic, and no one has a master plan with an all-seeing eye for present, past and future. They’re not that smart. No one is. Too much chaos to track.
History is replete with a minority of oppressive rich people crushing the poor. In fact the 20th Century freedoms from this repression are more of an historical anomaly, from my understanding. It’s not surprising we lost the plot. But we can still get it back, I think. I’d rather we focused on things we can actually achieve, rather than chasing ghosts and mythical creatures with supernatural powers.
The only way we win or get justice is by changing what’s in their hearts/minds. They have to freely choose to stop working towards evil goals.
Killing them won’t work – hell, we can’t even figure out who they are. Even if we could, it would only bring us short-term satisfaction.
Everyone here knows that any targeted plan to “root out the evil” will result in large amounts of collateral damage. I don’t want to become them to (potentially) defeat them – it’s not worth it.
Nietzsche wrote: “Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”
John 8:32 wrote: “And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free”
@ RE
“You know, even if she never said “let them eat cake”, from all historical records we know of Marie never was penitent for the life of priviledge she led while the rest of French society was in the Toilet. A Monarchy is not deposed until after many years the pain for the soicety as a whole has become unbearable.You take on great RESPONSIBILTY when you are Elite in your society for the well being of all. If your stewardship is bad, many people DIE. You must be accountable for that, and the only true accountability for it is that you ALSO must DIE. Marie Antoinette got what she DESERVED. In time, so will the Elite of this time period.”
Since the USA is 5% of the world population and we use 25% of the energy resources and 30% of the raw material resources where does that put the US population in your definition of the elite? Anyone with the time and money to post to this board must surely fall into that category.
When you and others get on the topic of doing away with the elite, all Ican think of is images from “The Killing Fields”. You say you seek justice, to me it sounds more like “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”. If you use the same methods as your enemy to deal with problems, you tend to get the same results. The “elite” ostracize, ban and kill those who disagree with them, if you use just an “us against them” narrative all you ultimately advocate is switching a set of old insiders, righteous ones for a set of new insiders, righteous ones. I don’t see that as a change worth while.
ashvin post=3283 wrote:
[quote=Nietzsche]”Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”
This is nonsense from the keyboard of Nietzshe. What’s his URL? Ill go troll his Blog. 😀
Easy example, 2 guns, 2 shooters, 2 victims.
Case 1: Shooter goes into liquor store, kills clerk to take register money.
Motivation: Evil
Case 2: Shooter sees rape in progress, kills rapist to save victim.
Motivation: Good
You don’t become your enemy by using the same tactics, it depends onthe motivation behind it.
Insofar as numbers are concerned, I doubt there are just 3 or 4 at the very top, the numbers are probably in the thousands. Its also a Hydra problem, where when you cut off one head, another grows to replace it. The trick in killing a hydra is to lop off ALL the heads simultaneously. A challenge, but not impossible to accomplish either.
Collateral damage? No doubt, but WORSE collateral damage if you don’t do it. Leave the vermin lose here, they’ll kill us ALL. Seriously. Now they want to mine Uranium in the Chesapeake Bay, as Surly mentioned in the Diner. How long do you take this shit before you get rid of this vermin, eh?
FWIW we’re down to 20%. We are actually down a bit absolutely, and lots of other folks are up quite a lot. The rest of the OECD is similar.
Reverse Engineer post=3286 wrote: [quote=ashvin post=3283]
Easy example, 2 guns, 2 shooters, 2 victims.
Case 1: Shooter goes into liquor store, kills clerk to take register money.
Motivation: Evil
Case 2: Shooter sees rape in progress, kills rapist to save victim.
Motivation: Good
You don’t become your enemy by using the same tactics, it depends on the motivation behind it.
You know as well as I do that this is a bad analogy to your systemic roto-rooter plan, or let’s just call it the Orkin Man Master Plan (OMMP).
The OMMP is operating at very large scales and at a much more complex level than your individual person shooting to kill a murderer and/or rapist in the act of the crime.In the individual analogy, your motivations are indeed much different than that of your targets. Actually, your tactics are different also, because there is not much premeditation involved and you seem to only be resorting to force when you just so happen to be in a position to directly save another person’s life, or at least save them from bodily harm.
In OMMP, our tactics involve premeditation and targeting specific people for extermination. Our motivation is to rid the world, via tortures and executions, of a certain number of people who we believe are counter-productive to the ability of humanity to survive and thrive. We will not hesitate to cross any thresholds to accomplish what we set out to do, and will adopt an “if you are not with us, you are against us” policy. We are going into the OMMP knowing full well that many “innocents” will be killed/harmed in the process of reaching our end goals.
Do our tactics and motivations really sound that much different from those of the Monsters we are seeking out? And that’s what Nietzsche was talking about…
Collateral damage? No doubt, but WORSE collateral damage if you don’t do it. Leave the vermin lose here, they’ll kill us ALL. Seriously. Now they want to mine Uranium in the Chesapeake Bay, as Surly mentioned in the Diner. How long do you take this shit before you get rid of this vermin, eh?
You can’t know that for sure. For all you know, the OOMP will FAIL miserably, and they will still end up attaining their goals. Except now you will both have innocent blood on your hands. In fact, the odds are that the FAIL part is exactly what will happen. If they are going to fail also, it will most likely be because they end up destroying themselves through their own destructive actions, one way or another.
RE writes: “Its also a Hydra problem, where when you cut off one head, another grows to replace it. The trick in killing a hydra is to lop off ALL the heads simultaneously. A challenge, but not impossible to accomplish either.”
The hydra is an excellent analogy. A mythical creature which requires mythical strategies to dispose of it. Best left for comic books.
And besides, it’s starting to sound a wee bit….crazy.
Again, let’s focus on what we CAN accomplish. Survival. Community organisation. Education. Asset protection. We’re getting a chicken coop soon! Yeeha. 🙂 My biggest fear in that regard is that when the hens stop laying (due to age) I’ll be too attached to eat them. Modern life has made me soft. I’d be useless at killing hydras even if they did exist!
ashvin post=3290 wrote:
You know as well as I do that this is a bad analogy to your systemic roto-rooter plan, or let’s just call it the Orkin Man Master Plan (OMMP).
The OMMP is operating at very large scales and at a much more complex level than your individual person shooting to kill a murderer and/or rapist in the act of the crime.In the individual analogy, your motivations are indeed much different than that of your targets. Actually, your tactics are different also, because there is not much premeditation involved and you seem to only be resorting to force when you just so happen to be in a position to directly save another person’s life, or at least save them from bodily harm.
I do NOT know as well as you do any such thing. Its merely a matter of scale, not principle.
I will give the example of Fuk-U-shima here. How many Deaths do you think will result from this catastrophe? 10K? Probably already done. 100K? Well within reasonable estimates given the proximity of the population to this disater. Even 10M is not outta da question.
Who is responsible for this? Somebody has to be held accountable. IMHO, its the TEPCO Owners and Managers and their lackey Pols who built this GUN and stuck it to the head of 10M Rape Victims.
Not only did they stick the Gun to the Population in the PAST, they currently KEEP the gun pointed at everybody ELSE. I SEE a RAPE in progress here, and I am gonna STOP it NOW by Gunning Down the who knows how many people complicit in this operation who AL are taking money out of the Cash Register at the moment. No more Mr. Nice Guy. This is a WAR here, and people are DYING as we speak. I am EVEN willing to alow these folks to OWN UP to their Sins and Repent and allow them to LIVE, an opportunity they did NOT give their Victims. So who is more Righteous here, eh?
I can make the SAME argument for the Owners and Managers and Pols who made the Macondo Blowout possible, and the same assholes who run Monsanto and push GMO foods out at the population and the SAME assholes running Big Pharma. They are KILLING people RIGHT NOW! BY THE MILLIONS. It has to be STOPPED, and pussy footing around here is NOT stopping it. No More Mr. Nice Guy now.
Just because they are protected by Corporate Personhood which allows the Individuals here to escape their culpability under this Legal System makes them no less culpable. Like anyone who willy nilly goes out and KILLS people for their own self-aggrandizement like the Liquor Store Robber they gotta GO here. Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth.
In OMMP, our tactics involve premeditation and targeting specific people for extermination. Our motivation is to rid the world, via tortures and executions, of a certain number of people who we believe are counter-productive to the ability of humanity to survive and thrive. We will not hesitate to cross any thresholds to accomplish what we set out to do, and will adopt an “if you are not with us, you are against us” policy. We are going into the OMMP knowing full well that many “innocents” will be killed/harmed in the process of reaching our end goals.
Do our tactics and motivations really sound that much different from those of the Monsters we are seeking out? And that’s what Nietzsche was talking about…
Sure it is “premeditated”. Any Legal System is, and I am advocating for a Legal System which holds these folks ACCOUNTABLE, ferrets them out and brings them before the Court of the Inquisition. Sorry, english Common Law is not WORKING. If something doesn’t work, you try something DIFFERENT. As Einstein said, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results”.
RE wrote: Collateral damage? No doubt, but WORSE collateral damage if you don’t do it. Leave the vermin lose here, they’ll kill us ALL. Seriously. Now they want to mine Uranium in the Chesapeake Bay, as Surly mentioned in the Diner. How long do you take this shit before you get rid of this vermin, eh?
Ashvin wrote: You can’t know that for sure. For all you know, the OOMP will FAIL miserably, and they will still end up attaining their goals. Except now you will both have innocent blood on your hands. In fact, the odds are that the FAIL part is exactly what will happen. If they are going to fail also, it will most likely be because they end up destroying themselves through their own destructive actions, one way or another.
I don’t know anything for sure other than the fact what we are doing AIN’T Working. I advocate a change of tactics. May work, may not. if somebody comes up with a better plan, I am all ears, but IMHO here a few Perp Walks and Passive Resistance or “Active Withdrawal” is NOT a better plan with any greater chance of success, in fact I rate it lower in its possibilities for success.
Bring in the Orkin Man.
RE
What we are doing ain’t working! Totally agree! Oh boy, and is it ever NOT working.
Here’s an unsettling perspective: “The End Game: 2012 & 2013”
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/big-reset-2012-and-2013-will-usher-end-scariest-presentation-ever
We don’t have a lot of time to run after those guys at the top. I might not even have enough time to build my chicken coop!
Eventually, if we are forced to rebuild from the ground up, I expect we will be wiser and pissed off and will be happy to bring a few people to a (more effective) court of law. Then again, there might be so much water under the bridge at that point that we’ll have completely lost track. We’ll just want to get on with building something new.
skipbreakfast post=3300 wrote: What we are doing ain’t working! Totally agree! Oh boy, and is it ever NOT working.
Here’s an unsettling perspective: “The End Game: 2012 & 2013”
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/big-reset-2012-and-2013-will-usher-end-scariest-presentation-ever
MAJOR DEBATE between me and Golden Oxen currently IN PROGRESS on this set of Graphs and Info at the moment in the Big Slide v2.0 thread over on the Diner. EXTREMELY ENTERTAINING! 😀
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3299 wrote: [quote=ashvin post=3290]
Sure it is “premeditated”. Any Legal System is, and I am advocating for a Legal System which holds these folks ACCOUNTABLE, ferrets them out and brings them before the Court of the Inquisition. Sorry, english Common Law is not WORKING. If something doesn’t work, you try something DIFFERENT. As Einstein said, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results”.You can call it whatever you want, but it is not a legal system. Legal systems are designed exactly to prevent OMMP. You can make a very good argument that legal systems are not adequate purveyors of justice in times like these, but you can’t pretend that OMMP is some kind of legal framework for carrying out justice. It not only goes against every principle of common law, but every right found in our Constitution. Isn’t it ironic that we rail against the NDAA for subverting due process, but we are so eager to throw it away ourselves when it comes to taking out the “bad guys”?
Its merely a matter of scale, not principle…
Not only did they stick the Gun to the Population in the PAST, they currently KEEP the gun pointed at everybody ELSE. I SEE a RAPE in progress here, and I am gonna STOP it NOW by Gunning Down the who knows how many people complicit in this operation who AL are taking money out of the Cash Register at the moment. No more Mr. Nice Guy. This is a WAR here, and people are DYING as we speak. I am EVEN willing to alow these folks to OWN UP to their Sins and Repent and allow them to LIVE, an opportunity they did NOT give their Victims. So who is more Righteous here, eh?
First, the issues of scale and complexity automatically make it a difference in principles between the individual rape victim in the liqour store and the entire world that may be exposed to the consequences of Fukushima. How are you determining who is complicit in that incident? Anyone that has taken “money out of the Cash Register”?? That’s a bit vague, to say the least. What about the families of the people you determine to be complicit… how do they factor in? I think even you would admit that what you are proposing is RECKLESS. It is a desperate measure for desperate times, right?
That motivation is not much different from theirs. You are just targeting different people for different end goals, but you are being consumed by many of the same emotions that drive them – fear, anxiety, desperation, frustration, anger, rage. And once we start down that road, who among us will have the discipline to stop?? Maybe you will, but many of your followers/compatriots won’t.
As for sin and penitence, is it not you who is committing the ultimate sin – putting yourself in the role of God? According to the Bible, God is the only one who can know with absolute certainty who is Evil, and who has been saved through penitence and a change of hearts. And, He WILL cast his wrath on the former when the time comes. It is not man’s role to dispense with that kind of Divine Justice.
You say, “so who is more righteous here, eh?”
Why are you suddenly comparing your actions to theirs, as if the latter is measuring stick that we should all strive to beat by an inch? The fact that they are Evil does not give us a free pass as long as we manage to be a little less evil (or more righteous) than they are. We should strive to be completely righteous and nothing less. The OMMP, IMO, is not a great way to start.
I don’t know anything for sure other than the fact what we are doing AIN’T Working. I advocate a change of tactics. May work, may not. if somebody comes up with a better plan, I am all ears, but IMHO here a few Perp Walks and Passive Resistance or “Active Withdrawal” is NOT a better plan with any greater chance of success, in fact I rate it lower in its possibilities for success.
Bring in the Orkin Man.
So the argument is – if what we’re doing doesn’t seem to be “working”, then we should do whatever else comes to mind, no matter what the consequences are? Sorry, I don’t buy that for a second. And aren’t you the one who has said many times that the Owners are in the process of destroying their own wealth/control base, by plundering energy resources and crippling the planet’s environment/ecosystems? That’s something I happen to believe as well, and perhaps that is the best tactic we can hope for at this point. The only thing we have near full control over now is our own free will and actions, and that is not something we should wield lightly or recklessly.
RE wrote:
No they aren’t. Legal systems prevent nothing, they merely define punishment for disobediance to the law.
They also define what the “law” is, how to determine who has disobeyed the law, what the punishment should be and how and by whom that punishment should be carried out. It is also almost always a function of centralized institutions of governance recognized by the people under their jurisdiction..
The point here is that there is no reason for us to call OMMP a “legal system”, as if that somehow mitigates the level of premeditated violence carried out in its name.
You should recall from prior conversations regarding the Constitution that it is my general conclusion that it was written by a bunch of Aristocrats to justify their Private property rights and doesn’t do much for the average J6P.
And you should recall that I agree with that conclusion. I was talking specifically about the Bill of Rights, though, which limits the arbitrary use of state-sanctioned force against the people. If OMMP is designed to circumvent the Bill of Rights, then it contains an implicit justification for its enemies to do the same.
Disagreed, scale does not make a difference in principle, only in the logistics for ferreting out the truth. More complex, certainly, but in principle still the same.
Far as families go, they are often complicit. For example, its likely Bernie Madoff’s Wife and Son were complicit. Also of course Bush1 and Bush2 both complicit. Its up to the Court of the Inquisition to determine how deep the rot of corruption is in a given family.
Pray tell, how will the Court of the Inquisition (i.e. you and your cronies) do that? Is there an age limit? What about the 6 year old kid who seems to be a corrupted little brat? The Husband/Wife who materially supported the corruption without knowing, or that sat by and didn’t do anything to stop their spouse? Or perhaps they did do something, but they just didn’t do “enough”? How can we be sure that your torturous methods do not lead to false confessions, just like the Inquisition’s?
No, my main driver is to clean up the kitchen. You stop when the Kitchen is clean. Granted this may take a while and the decision is subjective in the end, but that is true for just abotu all legal decisions.
Oh, another thing about legal systems – they should be designed to limit the use of subjectivity as much as possible. So if you insist on calling OMMP a legal system with “legal decisions”, then it is a really shitty one.
And you are not cleaning a Kitchen, you are torturing and murdering people. Since you are human, you are not doing that without being consumed by emotions. You cannot dismiss that fact by analogizing it to cleaning a kitchen.
As for sin and penitence, is it not you who is committing the ultimate sin – putting yourself in the role of God? According to the Bible, God is the only one who can know with absolute certainty who is Evil, and who has been saved through penitence and a change of hearts. And, He WILL cast his wrath on the former when the time comes. It is not man’s role to dispense with that kind of Divine Justice.
You can assume that if such a plan is undertaken that you are operating under God’s direction and are so the tool of God in it’s implementation, you are not God him/hers/itself. Far as whether it is Man’s Role to dispense Divine Justice, that is a matter for God to decide. If God wants to use a man to dispense Divine Justice, it is his/her/its perogative to do so.
Uh, no, we can’t assume anything. Unless God speaks to us directly and guides us towards those actions, then we cannot assume we have God’s blessing simply because we have incorporated our human understandings of sin and penitence. If anything, since we never predicated the value of OMMP on its ability to obtain God’s approval, we can assume that we DON’T have it for the sake of this argument.
We don’t know what the consequences will be here for taking these actions, but the likely consequences for not taking them are dire enough to warrant taking the risk. We know if we don’t gain control over this, we get more Fuk-U-shimas and more Macondos. I suggest that the consequences could be good ones. A clean kitchen empty of cockroaches is to the benefit of all except the cockroaches.
We do know some of the consequences – innocent lives will be sacrificed and at least some of the people carrying out the Inquisition will start operating with less than pure motives, or perhaps even at cross-purposes. This is what ALWAYS happens, without fail. So let’s not pretend that we don’t know whether some of those things will happen. What we truly don’t know is what the chances for success are, i.e. the chances of preventing future Fukushimas or Deepwater Horizons, but my educated guesstimate is that they will be slim to razor thin.Sorry RE,
When I was trying to reply to your last comment, I accidentally clicked “edit” instead of “reply”. Then I went ahead and wrote my comment and hit Submit. If you still have the comment you can post it again, but I don’t think there is any way for me to restore it. Now I just went ahead and deleted it, and re-posted my reply under my name. I think a good portion of your original comment is captured in the quotation blocks, though.
I did not save the original comment. You might look in your software to see if it stores prior editions. If not, it is lost. You should delete the comment listed under my name and paste it into a post with your name, with a profuse apology at the top in bold italics with a Dunce Cap image for fucking up so badly. LOL.
RE
RE wrote:
No they aren’t. Legal systems prevent nothing, they merely define punishment for disobediance to the law.
They also define what the “law” is, how to determine who has disobeyed the law, what the punishment should be and how and by whom that punishment should be carried out. It is also almost always a function of centralized institutions of governance recognized by the people under their jurisdiction..
The point here is that there is no reason for us to call OMMP a “legal system”, as if that somehow mitigates the level of premeditated violence carried out in its name.
You should recall from prior conversations regarding the Constitution that it is my general conclusion that it was written by a bunch of Aristocrats to justify their Private property rights and doesn’t do much for the average J6P.
And you should recall that I agree with that conclusion. I was talking specifically about the Bill of Rights, though, which limits the arbitrary use of state-sanctioned force against the people. If OMMP is designed to circumvent the Bill of Rights, then it contains an implicit justification for its enemies to do the same.
Disagreed, scale does not make a difference in principle, only in the logistics for ferreting out the truth. More complex, certainly, but in principle still the same.
Far as families go, they are often complicit. For example, its likely Bernie Madoff’s Wife and Son were complicit. Also of course Bush1 and Bush2 both complicit. Its up to the Court of the Inquisition to determine how deep the rot of corruption is in a given family.
Pray tell, how will the Court of the Inquisition (i.e. you and your cronies) do that? Is there an age limit? What about the 6 year old kid who seems to be a corrupted little brat? The Husband/Wife who materially supported the corruption without knowing, or that sat by and didn’t do anything to stop their spouse? Or perhaps they did do something, but they just didn’t do “enough”? How can we be sure that your torturous methods do not lead to false confessions, just like the Inquisition’s?
No, my main driver is to clean up the kitchen. You stop when the Kitchen is clean. Granted this may take a while and the decision is subjective in the end, but that is true for just abotu all legal decisions.
Oh, another thing about legal systems – they should be designed to limit the use of subjectivity as much as possible. So if you insist on calling OMMP a legal system with “legal decisions”, then it is a really shitty one.
And you are not cleaning a Kitchen, you are torturing and murdering people. Since you are human, you are not doing that without being consumed by emotions. You cannot dismiss that fact by analogizing it to cleaning a kitchen.
Ashvin wrote: As for sin and penitence, is it not you who is committing the ultimate sin – putting yourself in the role of God? According to the Bible, God is the only one who can know with absolute certainty who is Evil, and who has been saved through penitence and a change of hearts. And, He WILL cast his wrath on the former when the time comes. It is not man’s role to dispense with that kind of Divine Justice.
RE wrote: You can assume that if such a plan is undertaken that you are operating under God’s direction and are so the tool of God in it’s implementation, you are not God him/hers/itself. Far as whether it is Man’s Role to dispense Divine Justice, that is a matter for God to decide. If God wants to use a man to dispense Divine Justice, it is his/her/its perogative to do so.
Uh, no, we can’t assume anything. Unless God speaks to us directly and guides us towards those actions, then we cannot assume we have God’s blessing simply because we have incorporated our human understandings of sin and penitence. If anything, since we never predicated the value of OMMP on its ability to obtain God’s approval, we can assume that we DON’T have it for the sake of this argument.
We don’t know what the consequences will be here for taking these actions, but the likely consequences for not taking them are dire enough to warrant taking the risk. We know if we don’t gain control over this, we get more Fuk-U-shimas and more Macondos. I suggest that the consequences could be good ones. A clean kitchen empty of cockroaches is to the benefit of all except the cockroaches.
We do know some of the consequences – innocent lives will be sacrificed and at least some of the people carrying out the Inquisition will start operating with less than pure motives, or perhaps even at cross-purposes. This is what ALWAYS happens, without fail. So let’s not pretend that we don’t know whether some of those things will happen. What we truly don’t know is what the chances for success are, i.e. the chances of preventing future Fukushimas or Deepwater Horizons, but my educated guesstimate is that they will be slim to razor thin.
They also define what the “law” is, how to determine who has disobeyed the law, what the punishment should be and how and by whom that punishment should be carried out. It is also almost always a function of centralized institutions of governance recognized by the people under their jurisdiction..
The point here is that there is no reason for us to call OMMP a “legal system”, as if that somehow mitigates the level of premeditated violence carried out in its name.
Did I say anywhere that the Inquisition should not make Legal Definitions here for what constitutes Crimes Against Humanity and what the appropriate Punsihments should be? I am all for developing a comprehensive Code to make these Definitions before beginning the Auto da Fe.
We can start on the Code of RE Hammurabi right here with 5 starter Principles:
1- If you were in a position of Authority with knowledge of the dangers of what you or the company you worked for were doing and did not Blow the Whistle on them, you are GUILTY
2- Corporate Shields are declared retroactively Invalid.
3-If you actively engaged in Economic Pursuits with the goal of Enriching yourself at the Expense of Others, you are GUILTY.
4-If you loaned money to others at Usurious interest rates defined as say anything above 1%/mo, you are GUILTY
5-If you Invested in Corporations which you had Knowledge were engaged in activities destroying Mother Earth and endangering the lives of others, you are GUILTYAnd you should recall that I agree with that conclusion. I was talking specifically about the Bill of Rights, though, which limits the arbitrary use of state-sanctioned force against the people. If OMMP is designed to circumvent the Bill of Rights, then it contains an implicit justification for its enemies to do the same.
I never said this would stop Violence from the Other Side of the line. They will commit Violent acts regardless of the Law anyhow, so this just provides for a Level Playing Field. Mano-a-Mano, and the Meek got the Numbers Advantage here. Once the Force Multiplier of Oil is out of the Game, the Good Guys WIN. Remember the Wisdom of Uncle Joe Stalin, “You Can’t Make an Omelette without Breaking a Few Eggs.”
Pray tell, how will the Court of the Inquisition (i.e. you and your cronies) do that? Is there an age limit? What about the 6 year old kid who seems to be a corrupted little brat? The Husband/Wife who materially supported the corruption without knowing, or that sat by and didn’t do anything to stop their spouse? Or perhaps they did do something, but they just didn’t do “enough”? How can we be sure that your torturous methods do not lead to false confessions, just like the Inquisition’s?
I have great confidence in the Integrity of my Cronies, despite some Out of the Box ideas WRT Aliens, Jews, multi-Dimensional Space, and the absolute Value of Gold floating around amongst them. My own Personal Integrity is well documented by my willingness to stick to my Guns despite getting booted off half the Collapse Blogs on the Internet. 🙂 Also, given the fact that I am about the ONLY Crony in the Crowd who supports this idea (with the exception of New Crony Karpatok, aka Xena, Warrior Princess) , there are Checks & Balances in the New Politburo on the Diner. LOL.
Far as Kids are concerned, they probably mostly can be Saved here by pulling them out of the Environment and doing Behavioral Modification, the Greed pathways are not so well set into their Neural Connections yet. Other older Family Members can be Individually Judged for the Level of their Complicity.
Far as Torture is concerned, that is only used once the Level of Guilt of the Individual has already been establishedby the Court of the Inquisition, and it already should be a pretty High Level of Guilt to warrant Torture. For instance, Jamie Dimon or Lloyd Blankfein almost certainly get the full 9 yards on the Torture end prior to being dispatched to the Great Beyond, unless of course they fully Repent, give up all their Wealth, agree to spending the rest of their lives scrubbing Cesspools in Penitence and Name some more Names. They ALL know other Guilty parties, so if they don’t Name Names its off to the Rack until they do. If on the VERY slim chance Jamie Dimon does NOT know any other Guilty Parties to name, this is unfortunate for Jamie but as I said before, you can’t make and Omelette without breaking a few eggs 🙂
Oh, another thing about legal systems – they should be designed to limit the use of subjectivity as much as possible. So if you insist on calling OMMP a legal system with “legal decisions”, then it is a really shitty one.
And you are not cleaning a Kitchen, you are torturing and murdering people. Since you are human, you are not doing that without being consumed by emotions. You cannot dismiss that fact by analogizing it to cleaning a kitchen.
I already stipulated that you do not go into the Auto da Fe at all without a clear set of criteria as to what constitutes Guilt and what the appropriate Punishment for that Guilt is. So it is not “Murder”, it is Capital Punishment if so deemed appropriate by the Court of the Inquisition. The Torture is just Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth stuff. I mean really, Starving People or people being Irradiated without their consent or people being Injected with nasty Vaccines loaded with Mercury are being Tortured all over the place here, Trit here documents that stuff all the time. Only the most complicit in this Biz get the Torture Treatment, and you gotta be pretty high up the ladder for it. You know, CEOs of BP, TEPCO, CEO of Goldman Sacks the Taxpayer, Chairman of Da Fed, POTUS, CIA Director, President of the EU, IMF and World Bank Directors, everybody who attended the Basel Conference in the last Decade, everybody above the level of Janitor who works for the BIS, the Trilateral Commission Members etc. The Inquisition isn’t going to go after the Small Fry here with the Hammer, you start with the OBVIOUSLY and CLEARLY GUILTY at the visible Top of Pyramid, and you use them to lever your way into the the folks Behind the Curtain. There are AT LEAST 10,000 of these SCUMBAGS to start with and that will take plenty of time to work through the Docket.
As for sin and penitence, is it not you who is committing the ultimate sin – putting yourself in the role of God? According to the Bible, God is the only one who can know with absolute certainty who is Evil, and who has been saved through penitence and a change of hearts. And, He WILL cast his wrath on the former when the time comes. It is not man’s role to dispense with that kind of Divine Justice.
RE wrote: You can assume that if such a plan is undertaken that you are operating under God’s direction and are so the tool of God in it’s implementation, you are not God him/hers/itself. Far as whether it is Man’s Role to dispense Divine Justice, that is a matter for God to decide. If God wants to use a man to dispense Divine Justice, it is his/her/its perogative to do so
.
Uh, no, we can’t assume anything. Unless God speaks to us directly and guides us towards those actions, then we cannot assume we have God’s blessing simply because we have incorporated our human understandings of sin and penitence. If anything, since we never predicated the value of OMMP on its ability to obtain God’s approval, we can assume that we DON’T have it for the sake of this argument.
God works in Mysterious Ways, and exactly How He Speaks to us can’t be determined here a priori. Perhaps God is speaking in such a way as to encourage an Inqusition here? If we don’t undertake it, we would be Rejecting God.
In any event, in the ABSENCE of an Inquisition, stopping the progressive RAPE of Mother Earth and the endless TORTURE of the vast majority of the Population has not thusfar been possible through other more conventional means, so I suggest a change of direction here to hopefully align up better with God’s Will.
We do know some of the consequences – innocent lives will be sacrificed and at least some of the people carrying out the Inquisition will start operating with less than pure motives, or perhaps even at cross-purposes. This is what ALWAYS happens, without fail. So let’s not pretend that we don’t know whether some of those things will happen. What we truly don’t know is what the chances for success are, i.e. the chances of preventing future Fukushimas or Deepwater Horizons, but my educated guesstimate is that they will be slim to razor thin.
I never denied Innocent Lives will be lost here, in fact I explicitly said numerous times that “You cannot make an Omelette without Breaking a few Eggs”. What you have to make a Judgement on is in WHICH scenario will MORE Innocent Lives be Lost, and in which scenario MORE of the Guilty will be Brought to Justice?
Best Evidence right now is that if we do NOT undertake the Inqusition, EVERYBODY WILL DIE, as in Homo Sapiens suffers an Extinction Level Event and we go the way of the Dinosaur. If we have to break some Eggs to stop that, so be it. We all KNOW here that MANY Innocents are losing their lives RIGHT NOW, AS WE SPEAK. No more Mr. Nice Guy while this is an ongoing WAR against J6P.
Bring on the Orkin Man.
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3316 wrote:
Did I say anywhere that the Inquisition should not make Legal Definitions here for what constitutes Crimes Against Humanity and what the appropriate Punsihments should be? I am all for developing a comprehensive Code to make these Definitions before beginning the Auto da Fe.
We can start on the Code of RE Hammurabi right here with 5 starter Principles:
1- If you were in a position of Authority with knowledge of the dangers of what you or the company you worked for were doing and did not Blow the Whistle on them, you are GUILTY
2- Corporate Shields are declared retroactively Invalid.
3-If you actively engaged in Economic Pursuits with the goal of Enriching yourself at the Expense of Others, you are GUILTY.
4-If you loaned money to others at Usurious interest rates defined as say anything above 1%/mo, you are GUILTY
5-If you Invested in Corporations which you had Knowledge were engaged in activities destroying Mother Earth and endangering the lives of others, you are GUILTYWell damn… I may be guilty of #3 myself, seeing as how I regularly play poker.
Now you may give me a pass, because you are smart enough to understand that the people who give me their money are not really under any sort of coercion, do so of their own free will, start with a level playing field and I am not doing it to get RICH but rather to pay bills, but your over-zealous compatriots in newly-formed positions of authority within the Inquisition may not interpret my actions the same way. Sorry if I don’t trust anyone with that kind of power to use it wisely…
I never said this would stop Violence from the Other Side of the line. They will commit Violent acts regardless of the Law anyhow, so this just provides for a Level Playing Field. Mano-a-Mano, and the Meek got the Numbers Advantage here. Once the Force Multiplier of Oil is out of the Game, the Good Guys WIN. Remember the Wisdom of Uncle Joe Stalin, “You Can’t Make an Omelette without Breaking a Few Eggs.”
I think you are over-estimating the number of the “Meek” here. Hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people could technically be guilty of the OMMP criminal code. All kinds of people who work for corporations could be guilty of #1, as long as they have authority over at least one other person at the company. #3 speaks for itself – of course no one will admit they were doing it to get rich, but it will be their word against the newly-appointed Righteous. And #5 could include anyone who has ever spent a penny on the products of those destructive corporations – why limit it to people who actually bought shares? I’m sure a good portion of the people reading TAE, DD and most other similar sites are guilty of #4 and #5 as well. When it’s all said and done here, OMMP may end up doing the Illuminati’s job for it.
Far as Kids are concerned, they probably mostly can be Saved here by pulling them out of the Environment and doing Behavioral Modification, the Greed pathways are not so well set into their Neural Connections yet. Other older Family Members can be Individually Judged for the Level of their Complicity.
I’m still waiting to hear an age cutoff… and what about the mentally ill? Do we have an IQ cutoff line too, do we follow the definitions of DSMIV, what?
I already stipulated that you do not go into the Auto da Fe at all without a clear set of criteria as to what constitutes Guilt and what the appropriate Punishment for that Guilt is. So it is not “Murder”, it is Capital Punishment if so deemed appropriate by the Court of the Inquisition.
And my argument is that a “clear set of criteria” for what you propose to do is an oxymoron, a paradox, impossible.
The Inquisition isn’t going to go after the Small Fry here with the Hammer, you start with the OBVIOUSLY and CLEARLY GUILTY at the visible Top of Pyramid, and you use them to lever your way into the the folks Behind the Curtain. There are AT LEAST 10,000 of these SCUMBAGS to start with and that will take plenty of time to work through the Docket.
Those people aren’t stupid, though, They didn’t get to those positions without knowing how to game the all of the laws, rules, and plans that were established to work against them. I suspect that’s exactly what they will do with the OMMP, too. Set up a bunch of patsies to take the fall. By the time you make it to 10 of the real bad guys, the rest will be in hiding and actively leading you to all the wrong places and people. Actually, I would be suspect of OMMP as soon as I heard about it, because it may have already been co-opted by them before it got off the ground.
Fantasies about organizing it all quickly and implementing it simultaneously around the globe with an element of surprise are just that… fantasies.
God works in Mysterious Ways, and exactly How He Speaks to us can’t be determined here a priori. Perhaps God is speaking in such a way as to encourage an Inqusition here? If we don’t undertake it, we would be Rejecting God.
In any event, in the ABSENCE of an Inquisition, stopping the progressive RAPE of Mother Earth and the endless TORTURE of the vast majority of the Population has not thusfar been possible through other more conventional means, so I suggest a change of direction here to hopefully align up better with God’s Will.
Does He really work in mysterious ways? I think that’s just a catch phrase people like to use. By and large, if He exists, I imagine that He works in very straightforward ways. The Bible is replete with examples of God directly intervening in Earthly affairs and telling people exactly what He wanted them to do and when he wanted them to do it.
Perhaps the OMMP is not God’s will, perhaps it’s the opposite of His will. Maybe he is allowing this rape and suffering to continue to test the faith of humanity in Him and his promises for the future and see if they will obey the teachings of Jesus even when it seems they would be better off abandoning those teachings and taking matters into their own hands. Isn’t that a possibility to consider, seeing as how it is a major theme of the Bible?
I never denied Innocent Lives will be lost here, in fact I explicitly said numerous times that “You cannot make an Omelette without Breaking a few Eggs”. What you have to make a Judgement on is in WHICH scenario will MORE Innocent Lives be Lost, and in which scenario MORE of the Guilty will be Brought to Justice?
Best Evidence right now is that if we do NOT undertake the Inqusition, EVERYBODY WILL DIE, as in Homo Sapiens suffers an Extinction Level Event and we go the way of the Dinosaur. If we have to break some Eggs to stop that, so be it. We all KNOW here that MANY Innocents are losing their lives RIGHT NOW, AS WE SPEAK. No more Mr. Nice Guy while this is an ongoing WAR against J6P.
Well, for all of the reasons discussed, I disagree. I think the chances are very high that more innocent lives will be lost with the OMMP than without it, and, on top of that, by pursuing it we may condemn ourselves to physical and/or psychological damnation, either here on Earth for the rest of our lives or in the afterlife for all of eternity.
RE! I just know you’re intelligent enough–based on much of your writing–to see that it’s impossible to line up all those guilty of “knowingly enriching myself at the expense of others”. Every profit is at someone’s expense. That is inherent in the definition: one cannot have profit without another’s expense. If I sell someone a shirt I know he doesn’t need, maybe catching him at a weak moment, I’d be guilty according to this edict! That is insane. Unworkable. Dangerous. Scary. Nonsenical. And certainly not the well- considered doomsday plan I have come to expect from you. Your contributions are too valuable to waste on such distractions.
ashvin post=3317 wrote:
Well damn… I may be guilty of #3 myself, seeing as how I regularly play poker.
As I made CLEAR Ashvin, the Inqusition is NOT concerned with Small Fry who play Poker for a Living. We are going after the BIG BOYS. Waste of time, energy and the Legal Resources of the Inquisitors to go after Small Fry like you. We will be busy with much BIGGER Fish for a good while here. Might be a good idea though to start weaning yourself off this dependency on the Weakness and Stupidity of others to make your living though.
I think you are over-estimating the number of the “Meek” here. Hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people could technically be guilty of the OMMP criminal code. All kinds of people who work for corporations could be guilty of #1, as long as they have authority over at least one other person at the company. #3 speaks for itself – of course no one will admit they were doing it to get rich, but it will be their word against the newly-appointed Righteous. And #5 could include anyone who has ever spent a penny on the products of those destructive corporations – why limit it to people who actually bought shares? I’m sure a good portion of the people reading TAE, DD and most other similar sites are guilty of #4 and #5 as well. When it’s all said and done here, OMMP may end up doing the Illuminati’s job for it.
No, I am NOT overestimating the number of Meek, since I am droping a cutoff point here on initial Prosecutions and keeping it basically to the Top Visible end of the Pyramid.
Low Level Criminals are not Targeted here. The Inquisitors are not after the Drug Users or even the Street Dealers. We are after the King Pins. if you are a Dealer, you may be pulled in by the Inquisition and asked to Name some Names. Your Punishment and Penitence will probably be light if you cooperate with the Inqusition, just a few years scrubbing Cesspools probably. Only minor Torture, like being forced to listen to Rap Music 24/7 for a few days, Read Aloud the Text from People Magazine, spend a few days in a Rehab Program with Lindsay Lohan or worst of all be forced into a Shotgun Marriage with Kim Kardashian. LOL.
I’m still waiting to hear an age cutoff… and what about the mentally ill? Do we have an IQ cutoff line too, do we follow the definitions of DSMIV, what?
You can’t make an arbitrary cutoff here, but it is not necessary to do so since Kids do not control large corporations like BP or TEPCO, and neither do Morons either.
If said kids happen to be Progeny of Vicious Criminals convicted of Crimes Against Humanity, they will be Orphaned and sent to Re-education Camps. Hoepfully they are not too far gone already. Long as they graduate their re-education and don’t pull the same nasty stunts their parents did, they’ll be fine.
And my argument is that a “clear set of criteria” for what you propose to do is an oxymoron, a paradox, impossible.
That could be said of ANY Legal System Ashvin. None of them are perfect without Loopholes. You do the best you can, eh?
Those people aren’t stupid, though, They didn’t get to those positions without knowing how to game the all of the laws, rules, and plans that were established to work against them. I suspect that’s exactly what they will do with the OMMP, too. Set up a bunch of patsies to take the fall. By the time you make it to 10 of the real bad guys, the rest will be in hiding and actively leading you to all the wrong places and people. Actually, I would be suspect of OMMP as soon as I heard about it, because it may have already been co-opted by them before it got off the ground.
I never said they WERE Stupid Ashvin, which is why it is necessary to OUTSMART them! I’m Volunteering here in the effort 🙂 I’m Certified Smart! I’d be happy to have you back me up also on this end as well. There are plenty of Meek out there with enough additional Smarts to make this battle on the Smarts level along with plenty to do the Fisticuffs necessary as well here. Once the force multiplier of Oil gets knocked down, should be a rout IMHO.
Fantasies about organizing it all quickly and implementing it simultaneously around the globe with an element of surprise are just that… fantasies.
Negative thinking IMHO. It probably cannot be done quick enough to Save the vast majority of the population, but it maybe possible to do it quickly enough to avoid an ELE. Gotta make the EFFORT anyhow.
Does He really work in mysterious ways? I think that’s just a catch phrase people like to use. By and large, if He exists, I imagine that He works in very straightforward ways. The Bible is replete with examples of God directly intervening in Earthly affairs and telling people exactly what He wanted them to do and when he wanted them to do it.
Biblical Stories are IMHO mainly parables which may or may not represent God’s will in all respects. For instance, all that stuff about how after 3 months a Slave Girl should willingly submit to her New master blah blah. Or Render Unto Caesar yadda yadda. Or Turn the Other Cheek. Representative of the time period, but not necessarily God’s Will in perpetutity. You gotta be adaptible here to changing circumstances and be able to write NEW parables which further define God’s Will at any given point in history.
Perhaps the OMMP is not God’s will, perhaps it’s the opposite of His will. Maybe he is allowing this rape and suffering to continue to test the faith of humanity in Him and his promises for the future and see if they will obey the teachings of Jesus even when it seems they would be better off abandoning those teachings and taking matters into their own hands. Isn’t that a possibility to consider, seeing as how it is a major theme of the Bible?
Perhaps, but weighing the odds here, seems unlikely to me.
Well, for all of the reasons discussed, I disagree. I think the chances are very high that more innocent lives will be lost with the OMMP than without it, and, on top of that, by pursuing it we may condemn ourselves to physical and/or psychological damnation, either here on Earth for the rest of our lives or in the afterlife for all of eternity.
OBVIOUSLY we disagree on this Ashvin, otherwise we would not be going to such great lengths to justify our opposing viewpoints on the topic. Up to the Reader to decide who made the better case here.
My conclusion is despite the risks involved and the potential for great suffering to emerge as Blowback here from the Inqusition, it is the Better Alternative to acquiesing to the continued destruction of Mother Earth and the continued Torture and Death of Millions and probably soon to be BILLIONS of people. Confronted with THAT, IMHO you take the risk.
Bring on the Orkin Man.
RE
skipbreakfast post=3318 wrote: RE! I just know you’re intelligent enough–based on much of your writing–to see that it’s impossible to line up all those guilty of “knowingly enriching myself at the expense of others”. Every profit is at someone’s expense. That is inherent in the definition: one cannot have profit without another’s expense. If I sell someone a shirt I know he doesn’t need, maybe catching him at a weak moment, I’d be guilty according to this edict! That is insane. Unworkable. Dangerous. Scary. Nonsenical. And certainly not the well- considered doomsday plan I have come to expect from you. Your contributions are too valuable to waste on such distractions.
SB, I clearly state that the Inquisition CANNOT hit on every last little Pipsqueak out there who runs a Small Biz to extract some profit from the Earth or the Labor of Others.
At small Power Levels, this process while generally speaking isn’t very good (potlatch is better), it is more or less a level playing field until you get great accumulations of wealth and power. Once that happens, the whole system breaks down.
The Inquisition as I try to lay it out focuses down on the very BIGGEST Power Structures and the very LARGEST accumulations of the Wealth of Mother Earth, which in fact is God’s Gift to ALL Mankind, not the Koch Brothers or George Soros or Bill Gates.
The Top of the Food Chain PREDATORS simply have become TOO POWERFUL, and the Ecosystem is breaking down as a result. I am trying to lay out a means by which the Little Fish can take the Battle to the Sharks and CONSUME them by virtue of the Power of Numbers and the willingness to be JUST as Vicious here in the Consumption paradigm, except in this version 1000 little Fishies all gang up on One Big Tuna and EAT IT ALIVE.
Little Fishies of course cannot do that, they don’t have the BRAINS for it and they are not adapted to do so. Homo Sapiens though? Another Ball Game altogether. We CAN Gang Up, we CAN operate as Herd Animals as well as Pack Wolves. We CAN STAMPEDE, we CAN TRAMPLE the Wolves. ONLY though if we act in CONCERT and ONLY if we will KILL the Predators who threaten the SURVIVAL of the Herd.
This is NATURE in ACTION SB, and if you want to be Sheep consumed by the Wolves, that is your choice, but not mine. I am going to follow the Wildebeasts herein this parable, and I will do my best to get the rest of the Herd to STAMPEDE with me and Trample ALL the Predators in our Path. They simply will not know what HIT them when the STAMPEDE begins here.
Not in this Game to LOSE, in it to WIN. What are the High Cards I hold here? The POWER OF NUMBERS. Fratured though, separate the herd and hit on the Weak, the Predators win. Only when the Herd comes together as a WHOLE can the Weak be Protected and Defended from the Predators. The Biggest, the Smartest, the STRONGEST out on the Periphery, ready to do BATTLE with the Wolves, to STAMP and KICK and GORE them as necessary to defend the Weak. That is Nature, that is how the Herd WINS.
RE
I have Republished this entire Debate including the OP and sadly excluding the post Ashvin accidentally deleted as a Feature Article on the Diner Blog under the title Of Wildebeests and Wolves
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3319 wrote: [quote=ashvin post=3317]
As I made CLEAR Ashvin, the Inqusition is NOT concerned with Small Fry who play Poker for a Living. We are going after the BIG BOYS. Waste of time, energy and the Legal Resources of the Inquisitors to go after Small Fry like you. We will be busy with much BIGGER Fish for a good while here. Might be a good idea though to start weaning yourself off this dependency on the Weakness and Stupidity of others to make your living though.
No, what you made clear is that NO ONE can escape the wrath of the Inquisition when it really gets going. Yes, you will obviously want to target the king pins at first, but you will find that the rot of corruption extends much deeper in this system. There is no system without the active and passive complicity of billions, and if you think the king pins won’t amass an army of the complicit on their side when all of these Rightheous Crusades go down, then you are sorely mistaken.
No, I am NOT overestimating the number of Meek, since I am droping a cutoff point here on initial Prosecutions and keeping it basically to the Top Visible end of the Pyramid.
Low Level Criminals are not Targeted here. The Inquisitors are not after the Drug Users or even the Street Dealers. We are after the King Pins. if you are a Dealer, you may be pulled in by the Inquisition and asked to Name some Names. Your Punishment and Penitence will probably be light if you cooperate with the Inqusition, just a few years scrubbing Cesspools probably.
…
You can’t make an arbitrary cutoff here, but it is not necessary to do so since Kids do not control large corporations like BP or TEPCO, and neither do Morons either.
If said kids happen to be Progeny of Vicious Criminals convicted of Crimes Against Humanity, they will be Orphaned and sent to Re-education Camps. Hoepfully they are not too far gone already. Long as they graduate their re-education and don’t pull the same nasty stunts their parents did, they’ll be fine.
You are wafting all over the place here and you know it. In one place you have cut off points, and in others you believe they are arbitrary and cannot be used. It is clear that you are making this shit up as you go along – the ridiculously vague criminal code, the “initial prosecutions”, the top of the pyramid, the low-level torture and scrubbing of cesspools, the re-education camps, etc., etc. Trust me, I know it’s fun to play Devil’s Advocate – that’s a part of what I’m doing in this argument too (although you may be doing it a bit more literally :evil:).
But the other part is out of genuine concern about the ideas people will get in their heads when they are seduced by fantasies such as yours. You know just as well as I do that your hyper-idealistic plan will not come to pass, ever… UNLESS, it is undertaken by an ignorant mob following a charismatic leader that has convinced them it is in their interests to kill off large swaths of people who represent the Old Order. Then you will get your OMMP, but who knows, you may end up being one of the roaches that gets exterminated.
Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss.
That could be said of ANY Legal System Ashvin. None of them are perfect without Loopholes. You do the best you can, eh?
Yes, that could be said of any legal system operating at the complex scale of global human civilization. Our aim should not be to replicate those flawed systems or come up with new ones at the same scale, but to completely down-size the scale of operation. Your ever-evolving OMMP is a worldwide system of subjective “laws” that seeks to enact a “righteous” genocide in the name of protecting the helpless masses, and usher in a new era of peace and stability.
I never said they WERE Stupid Ashvin, which is why it is necessary to OUTSMART them! I’m Volunteering here in the effort 🙂 I’m Certified Smart! I’d be happy to have you back me up also on this end as well. There are plenty of Meek out there with enough additional Smarts to make this battle on the Smarts level along with plenty to do the Fisticuffs necessary as well here. Once the force multiplier of Oil gets knocked down, should be a rout IMHO.
Sometimes it’s smarter to recognize that the ends don’t justify the means, and that success can be had in more ways than one. To sacrifice one’s vengeful bloodlust for the good of the human soul, even when the former is convincingly dressed up as a humanitarian act. Your OMMP will play right into their hands of controlled depopulation. Remember, they NEED a justification for top-down, centralized enslavement and genocide of the masses, and proposals along the lines of OMMP will give it to them. A rout, indeed.
Negative thinking IMHO. It probably cannot be done quick enough to Save the vast majority of the population, but it maybe possible to do it quickly enough to avoid an ELE. Gotta make the EFFORT anyhow.
Realistic thinking. We don’t have to make the effort – that is the point of free will and conscious decisions. The OMMP already sounds like a situation in which people will be told “if you don’t support the effort, you will be responsible for an ELE that is certain to occur”. A false dichotomy along the lines of “bail out the banks or watch the world economy be vaporized”, except even more extreme.
Biblical Stories are IMHO mainly parables which may or may not represent God’s will in all respects. For instance, all that stuff about how after 3 months a Slave Girl should willingly submit to her New master blah blah. Or Render Unto Caesar yadda yadda. Or Turn the Other Cheek. Representative of the time period, but not necessarily God’s Will in perpetutity. You gotta be adaptible here to changing circumstances and be able to write NEW parables which further define God’s Will at any given point in history.
Another BS tactic used by people to subvert Biblical law and the teachings of Jesus – just say that it is all filled with symbolic parables and open to endless interpretation. It is no coincidence that the Roman Catholic Church kept the Bible from the people when it officially adopted Christianity – it wanted man-made religious/political/economic traditions that were ultimately geared towards retribution and war to overrule the very obvious and very clear teachings of love, forgiveness and peace found in the Books themselves. The truths laid out by Jesus as God’s human incarnation are meant to be eternal, and you cannot use Him to justify goals that are in opposition to those truths by erroneously claiming they are “adaptable” to the times.
ashvin post=3333 wrote:
No, what you made clear is that NO ONE can escape the wrath of the Inquisition when it really gets going. Yes, you will obviously want to target the king pins at first, but you will find that the rot of corruption extends much deeper in this system. There is no system without the active and passive complicity of billions, and if you think the king pins won’t amass an army of the complicit on their side when all of these Rightheous Crusades go down, then you are sorely mistaken.
No, the thesis that it will continue in perpetuity is yours, not mine. The corruption and rot go pretty deep I will grant you, but eventually you will work your way down to the point the kitchen is clean enough to cook in again.
I also am quite SURE the Army of Evil will amass itself, which is why the Army of Good better start getting ready here to go Mano-a-Mano with the AoE in a No Rules, Take No Prisoners Final Battle for ALL the Marbles.
You are wafting all over the place here and you know it. In one place you have cut off points, and in others you believe they are arbitrary and cannot be used. It is clear that you are making this shit up as you go along – the ridiculously vague criminal code, the “initial prosecutions”, the top of the pyramid, the low-level torture and scrubbing of cesspools, the re-education camps, etc., etc. Trust me, I know it’s fun to play Devil’s Advocate – that’s a part of what I’m doing in this argument too (although you may be doing it a bit more literally :evil:).
Is there a Rule here against Wafting and Making Shit Up as you go along? I was not aware of any such rule here.
In any event, the Cutoffs being made here are Monetary ones, not Age or Intelligence ones. Not going after Kids or Retards. Going after PIGMEN.
But the other part is out of genuine concern about the ideas people will get in their heads when they are seduced by fantasies such as yours. You know just as well as I do that your hyper-idealistic plan will not come to pass, ever… UNLESS, it is undertaken by an ignorant mob following a charismatic leader that has convinced them it is in their interests to kill off large swaths of people who represent the Old Order. Then you will get your OMMP, but who knows, you may end up being one of the roaches that gets exterminated.
I won’t specualte on the likelihood of the Inquisition coming to pass or who might lead it either. The Track Record for such things is rather muddy overall, but I would say that the general results of the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror were overall an improvement over the Monarchy that preceeded it. Also I would say that although certainly corrupt in the aftermath, it was an Improvement over in Russia when Nicholas and Alexandra Romanoff were filled full of lead in a Ruskie basement
As to myself being pulled in front of the Inquisition? Possible of course, but a risk I am willing to take as a last ditch effort to Save Mother Earth and avoid an ELE for Homo Sapiens.
Yes, that could be said of any legal system operating at the complex scale of global human civilization. Our aim should not be to replicate those flawed systems or come up with new ones at the same scale, but to completely down-size the scale of operation. Your ever-evolving OMMP is a worldwide system of subjective “laws” that seeks to enact a “righteous” genocide in the name of protecting the helpless masses, and usher in a new era of peace and stability.
Ever evolving is important in order to adapt to changing circumstances. 😛
I do agree of course that we need to shrink back to smaller more sustainable political groupings and legal systems of course. The Inquisition is part of the Catabolic process of the large systems before a new Anabolic period or Better Tomorrow can begin.
Sometimes it’s smarter to recognize that the ends don’t justify the means, and that success can be had in more ways than one. To sacrifice one’s vengeful bloodlust for the good of the human soul, even when the former is convincingly dressed up as a humanitarian act. Your OMMP will play right into their hands of controlled depopulation. Remember, they NEED a justification for top-down, centralized enslavement and genocide of the masses, and proposals along the lines of OMMP will give it to them. A rout, indeed.
Sometimes perhaps, not this time.
I disagree of course, run correctly the Inquisition will take out the Masters and Free the Slaves, not the other way round that you project. Of course, Inquisiton Management is a difficult thing, but I never made the case this would be easy either.
Realistic thinking. We don’t have to make the effort – that is the point of free will and conscious decisions. The OMMP already sounds like a situation in which people will be told “if you don’t support the effort, you will be responsible for an ELE that is certain to occur”. A false dichotomy along the lines of “bail out the banks or watch the world economy be vaporized”, except even more extreme.
In the case of the Banks, it isn’t a False Dichotomy. If the Banks aren’t Bailed out, the World economy WILL vaporize! No Letters of Credit, no credible functioning Money, no Oil trade you can go on and on here with this. Nobody has put forth a credible plan to work in the aftermath of a systemic banking collapse, and no I don’t think coining up all the Tungsten in Fort Knox will work nor do I think non-Debt based money in a Resource Based Economy will work either, but those are long debates all of their own.
As to whether we are on the road now to an ELE, I won’t answer that with words, one picture will suffice.
Another BS tactic used by people to subvert Biblical law and the teachings of Jesus – just say that it is all filled with symbolic parables and open to endless interpretation. It is no coincidence that the Roman Catholic Church kept the Bible from the people when it officially adopted Christianity – it wanted man-made religious/political/economic traditions that were ultimately geared towards retribution and war to overrule the very obvious and very clear teachings of love, forgiveness and peace found in the Books themselves. The truths laid out by Jesus as God’s human incarnation are meant to be eternal, and you cannot use Him to justify goals that are in opposition to those truths by erroneously claiming they are “adaptable” to the times.
OK, add BS to Wafting and Making Shit Up here as your stock in trade arguments. AKA pitch out some Napalm Lite.
All the Biblical Stories may or may not all be true. I am not convinced for instance that Moses parted the Red Sea or that Jesus Walked on Water either. One has to read the Bible with some Critical thinking, you can’t buy the whole thing as Absolute Truth. At the very least there have been too many centuries worth of Revisions to it to be 100% sure of what was written down in the first place. Besides that, said stories were written by observers who you may or may not believe were Prophets of God, but even so saw the world through their own flawed Human Eyes.
It is incumbent on the Sons and Daughters of God CURRENTLY walking the Earth to respond to the challenges of our own time, which all are not precisely the same ones that were apparent when the Bible was written. For instance, there were no Nuke Plants sitting around as Time Bombs waiting to go off then. Nor were there 7B people inhabiting the Earth either. In the Bible, God’s Word was to “Go Forth and Multiply”. Is that what we need to do NOW? Our time has different challenges to deal with, and we must find out own way to respond to them. Every last answer is not written down in the Bible or apparent in the words of Jesus Christ either.
I most certainly understand the risks involved here, but I am pretty sure Turning the Other Cheek is not the solution we need here right now, and Jesus suggested that one also. Methinks it is time to FIGHT BACK, not turn the Other Cheek.
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3335 wrote:
No, the thesis that it will continue in perpetuity is yours, not mine. The corruption and rot go pretty deep I will grant you, but eventually you will work your way down to the point the kitchen is clean enough to cook in again.I also am quite SURE the Army of Evil will amass itself, which is why the Army of Good better start getting ready here to go Mano-a-Mano with the AoE in a No Rules, Take No Prisoners Final Battle for ALL the Marbles.
…
Is there a Rule here against Wafting and Making Shit Up as you go along? I was not aware of any such rule here.
In any event, the Cutoffs being made here are Monetary ones, not Age or Intelligence ones. Not going after Kids or Retards. Going after PIGMEN.
Look, the point I was trying to emphasize with the questions about cutoffs and what not was that, with them, your actions will be arbitrary and unsuccessful, but without them, your actions will necessarily harm a significant number of innocent people. And I believe you have already stipulated to the latter, so there’s really no point debating it further.
Innocent people and not-so-guilty people WILL be sacrificed in the OMMP. You believe it is a necessary evil, and I believe it is an unacceptable evil. Other people can decide for themselves.
I won’t specualte on the likelihood of the Inquisition coming to pass or who might lead it either. The Track Record for such things is rather muddy overall, but I would say that the general results of the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror were overall an improvement over the Monarchy that preceeded it. Also I would say that although certainly corrupt in the aftermath, it was an Improvement over in Russia when Nicholas and Alexandra Romanoff were filled full of lead in a Ruskie basement
Again, I don’t think the track record is very “muddy” at all, especially in the 20th century, which is more applicable to our times due to the scale of reactionary movements in the age of fossil fuels.
As to myself being pulled in front of the Inquisition? Possible of course, but a risk I am willing to take as a last ditch effort to Save Mother Earth and avoid an ELE for Homo Sapiens.
What if it’s not just you, but everyone that you care about? What if it’s an entire community of people where you happen to live? At what point will you say, “enough is enough”, the means no longer justify the stated (but not certain) ends? Even if you are intellectually, emotionally and spiritually capable of drawing that line, MOST PEOPLE are not. That’s just the reality of the situation we are in.
Ever evolving is important in order to adapt to changing circumstances. 😛
I know this is not exactly what we were talking about in this particular portion of the debate (OOMP as an ever-evolving plan), but as a partial aside:
The concept of evolution is a dangerous weapon when it is consciously applied to human societies as an end goal. I am highly suspicious of anyone who claims their policies are geared towards “evolving” the human species over short time frames. The Eugenics policies of the 20th century were a direct result of that mentality.
I do agree of course that we need to shrink back to smaller more sustainable political groupings and legal systems of course. The Inquisition is part of the Catabolic process of the large systems before a new Anabolic period or Better Tomorrow can begin.
Ah yes, the “Better Tomorrow” – promised by Evil Dictators implementing genocidal policies since time immemorial.
Sometimes perhaps, not this time.
I disagree of course, run correctly the Inquisition will take out the Masters and Free the Slaves, not the other way round that you project. Of course, Inquisiton Management is a difficult thing, but I never made the case this would be easy either.
Well you admitted above that you cannot speculate on if, when or how exactly the OMMP would come to pass, or WHO would end up leading it, so would it be fair to say that it’s POSSIBLE that the OMMP, when actually implemented in the real world, would be led by misleading forces that want to accomplish the opposite of what you want to accomplish? That’s the point I am getting at.
In the case of the Banks, it isn’t a False Dichotomy. If the Banks aren’t Bailed out, the World economy WILL vaporize! No Letters of Credit, no credible functioning Money, no Oil trade you can go on and on here with this. Nobody has put forth a credible plan to work in the aftermath of a systemic banking collapse, and no I don’t think coining up all the Tungsten in Fort Knox will work nor do I think non-Debt based money in a Resource Based Economy will work either, but those are long debates all of their own.
Yes, those are issues to be discussed in their own right. The false dichotomy I was referring to is a cognitive/psychological one, designed to make people believe that bailing out the banks is the ONLY option for humanity. Kind of like your argument for OMMP is designed to make people believe that an ELE is inevitable without it. The logic here is that, if we do not act soon to implement something like the OMMP, more Fukushima type events will keep occurring until humanity is wiped out. Who knows, you may be right – extinction may be humanity’s ultimate destiny at this point, at least in the physical sense. But even that fact doesn’t necessitate OMMP as our ONLY option to deal with that reality.
OK, add BS to Wafting and Making Shit Up here as your stock in trade arguments. AKA pitch out some Napalm Lite.
All the Biblical Stories may or may not all be true. I am not convinced for instance that Moses parted the Red Sea or that Jesus Walked on Water either. One has to read the Bible with some Critical thinking, you can’t buy the whole thing as Absolute Truth. At the very least there have been too many centuries worth of Revisions to it to be 100% sure of what was written down in the first place. Besides that, said stories were written by observers who you may or may not believe were Prophets of God, but even so saw the world through their own flawed Human Eyes.
It is incumbent on the Sons and Daughters of God CURRENTLY walking the Earth to respond to the challenges of our own time, which all are not precisely the same ones that were apparent when the Bible was written. For instance, there were no Nuke Plants sitting around as Time Bombs waiting to go off then. Nor were there 7B people inhabiting the Earth either. In the Bible, God’s Word was to “Go Forth and Multiply”. Is that what we need to do NOW? Our time has different challenges to deal with, and we must find out own way to respond to them. Every last answer is not written down in the Bible or apparent in the words of Jesus Christ either.
I most certainly understand the risks involved here, but I am pretty sure Turning the Other Cheek is not the solution we need here right now, and Jesus suggested that one also. Methinks it is time to FIGHT BACK, not turn the Other Cheek.
The reason why we are talking about Jesus and the Bible is because you essentially brought them up as justifications for your plan, in so far as you can mitigate the genocidal effects of it by offering people the opportunity to repent for their sins.
I am not arguing for the correctness or incorrectness of what the Bible says happened and what Jesus taught. I am arguing for representing those things accurately, rather than manipulating them for our own arguments. The Bible consists of perhaps the most well-preserved and widely-circulated ancient texts that we know about. By studying those texts and comparing them to each other, we can determine by and large exactly what it was saying, in terms of past events, spiritual teachings and future prophecies.
You don’t have to agree with it, but you cannot deny that it is, in fact, saying those things. I am by no means a Biblical Scholar, but there are quite a few Biblical Scholars that I have read and respect (some of whom aren’t even Christian), and they all agree that the Bible is quite straightforward and should be taken literally. That is something the institutions of the Church have not done well at all, and we should not strive to repeat their mistakes (or intentional deceptions).
ashvin post=3336 wrote:
Innocent people and not-so-guilty people WILL be sacrificed in the OMMP. You believe it is a necessary evil, and I believe it is an unacceptable evil. Other people can decide for themselves.
This pretty much is the Core Argument here, and as I stated well up the page here, it’s a matter of weighing how many Innocents will die and how many Guilty will be brought to Justice in different scenarios. What I put to the reader here is that MORE Innocents will Die and Fewer of the Guilty will be brought to Justice without the Inquisition.
Again, I don’t think the track record is very “muddy” at all, especially in the 20th century, which is more applicable to our times due to the scale of reactionary movements in the age of fossil fuels.
Nicholas and Alexandra Romanoff were filled full of Lead in 1917. Far as I know, that is part of the 20th Century.
What if it’s not just you, but everyone that you care about? What if it’s an entire community of people where you happen to live? At what point will you say, “enough is enough”, the means no longer justify the stated (but not certain) ends? Even if you are intellectually, emotionally and spiritually capable of drawing that line, MOST PEOPLE are not. That’s just the reality of the situation we are in.
You know, entire communities of people are being wiped out ALREADY as we SPEAK. So to argue that the Inquisition would CAUSE something which is already ongoing and accelerating is simply a crock of shit.
When you have a really BIG Forest Fire raging and sprinkling water on it isn’t stopping it, what do you do? You set a BACKFIRE and let it burn also. You kill a lot of Innocent Trees that way but in the end you save most of the Forest. Of course you can argue that it would be better of to let the whole forest burn down more often, but inthe case of Homo Sapiens if it all burns down this time its probably never grwoing back again.
I know this is not exactly what we were talking about in this particular portion of the debate (OOMP as an ever-evolving plan), but as a partial aside:
The concept of evolution is a dangerous weapon when it is consciously applied to human societies as an end goal. I am highly suspicious of anyone who claims their policies are geared towards “evolving” the human species over short time frames. The Eugenics policies of the 20th century were a direct result of that mentality.
Evolution is a dangerous concept, so is Creationism. Accepting that things are immutable and not subject to change is itself a very dangerous concept. Danger lurks about us everywhere. You just gotta stay on your toes and keep your eyes open.
Ah yes, the “Better Tomorrow” – promised by Evil Dictators implementing genocidal policies since time immemorial.
Back to the Evil Dictators you see lurking around every Street Corner. How about Joan of Arc? Was she an Evil Dictator? What about Fidel? Was he an Evil Dictator? How about Hugo Chavez? is he an Evil Dictator? Dictators often do unpleasant things, but they aren’t all Evil either.
Well you admitted above that you cannot speculate on if, when or how exactly the OMMP would come to pass, or WHO would end up leading it, so would it be fair to say that it’s POSSIBLE that the OMMP, when actually implemented in the real world, would be led by misleading forces that want to accomplish the opposite of what you want to accomplish? That’s the point I am getting at.
Yes it is Possible. No guarantees, particularly in a risky situation like this. However, when you have millions being murdered every day through chemical, biological and nuclear poisoning, not to mention non-stop wars all over the Planet, you gotta take some risks here.
The logic here is that, if we do not act soon to implement something like the OMMP, more Fukushima type events will keep occurring until humanity is wiped out. Who knows, you may be right – extinction may be humanity’s ultimate destiny at this point, at least in the physical sense. But even that fact doesn’t necessitate OMMP as our ONLY option to deal with that reality.
When somebody comes up with a better Option with a greater chance of success I’ll jump right on board. Meanwhile, its the best option I can come up with. If you have a better one, I am all ears. I’ll deconstruct it and demonstrate why it has a lower potential for success.
The reason why we are talking about Jesus and the Bible is because you essentially brought them up as justifications for your plan, in so far as you can mitigate the genocidal effects of it by offering people the opportunity to repent for their sins.
No, I didn’t bring up Jesus, you did. I never use Jesus as justification since I am not a Christian. I do use the Bible as reference material and as a possible Window to understand God better, but I don;t buy the whole ball of wax lock stock and barrel.
I am not arguing for the correctness or incorrectness of what the Bible says happened and what Jesus taught. I am arguing for representing those things accurately, rather than manipulating them for our own arguments. The Bible consists of perhaps the most well-preserved and widely-circulated ancient texts that we know about. By studying those texts and comparing them to each other, we can determine by and large exactly what it was saying, in terms of past events, spiritual teachings and future prophecies.
You don’t have to agree with it, but you cannot deny that it is, in fact, saying those things. I am by no means a Biblical Scholar, but there are quite a few Biblical Scholars that I have read and respect (some of whom aren’t even Christian), and they all agree that the Bible is quite straightforward and should be taken literally. That is something the institutions of the Church have not done well at all, and we should not strive to repeat their mistakes (or intentional deceptions).
Biblical scholars can “all agree that the Bible is quite straightforward and should be taken literally”, but regardless of what Triv would call an appeal to authority argument, I am sorry, I just don’t buy that Moses parted the Red Sea or that Jesus walked on Water.
I do believe though that quite a bit of the History in the Bible is correct, including the fact that a Preacher named Jesus likely was walking around Rome and the periphery during some exceedingly hard times. Son of God though? No moreso than you or I are Sons of God in all probability. Do you take LITERALLY that Jesus was the Son of God? This may be the source of our differing perceptions of the Bible.
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3337 wrote: Nicholas and Alexandra Romanoff were filled full of Lead in 1917. Far as I know, that is part of the 20th Century.
If you are claiming the Bolshevik Revolutions and the following travesties that took place in the Soviet Union under Lenin and Stalin were overall good things for humanity, similar to how the OMMP will be, then I think you have made my argument for me.
You know, entire communities of people are being wiped out ALREADY as we SPEAK. So to argue that the Inquisition would CAUSE something which is already ongoing and accelerating is simply a crock of shit.
When you have a really BIG Forest Fire raging and sprinkling water on it isn’t stopping it, what do you do? You set a BACKFIRE and let it burn also. You kill a lot of Innocent Trees that way but in the end you save most of the Forest. Of course you can argue that it would be better of to let the whole forest burn down more often, but inthe case of Homo Sapiens if it all burns down this time its probably never grwoing back again.
This is just circular logic. You are attacking my critiques of OMMP by assuming the very conclusion that I am trying to refute. My argument is that it’s NOT like setting a backfire, it is like setting a completely different forest on fire, using the very same accelerants that were used by the people who set the first forest on fire. At the very least, it is like adding fuel to an ongoing fire.
Back to the Evil Dictators you see lurking around every Street Corner. How about Joan of Arc? Was she an Evil Dictator? What about Fidel? Was he an Evil Dictator? How about Hugo Chavez? is he an Evil Dictator? Dictators often do unpleasant things, but they aren’t all Evil either.
I didn’t say that every leader who promises their people a better future are Evil. I was just pointing out that many Dictators who can easily be classified as Evil have used that promise over the centuries to justify very radical and aggressive policies, and especially in the 20th century when those policies could be implemented at large scales, like I emphasized before. I’m thinking Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot here. Whether or not these people were actually motivated by “evil” is pretty irrelevant here. The consequences of their actions speak for themselves.
When somebody comes up with a better Option with a greater chance of success I’ll jump right on board. Meanwhile, its the best option I can come up with. If you have a better one, I am all ears. I’ll deconstruct it and demonstrate why it has a lower potential for success.
OK, I’ll give it a shot. The Evil People at the very top of the pyramid you seek to destroy are Satanists/Luciferians, right? They are deeply into the process of drawing energy/power from Satanic rituals, and whether or not Satan is real, those practices seemed to have worked for them over the years. Perhaps we should think about drawing on spiritual energies ourselves as a way of combating the evil forces. Fight fire with fire, right? What better way than to engage in spiritual warfare! Come to think of it… that’s exactly what a lot of people are doing right now, both Christians and non-Christians.
No, I didn’t bring up Jesus, you did. I never use Jesus as justification since I am not a Christian. I do use the Bible as reference material and as a possible Window to understand God better, but I don;t buy the whole ball of wax lock stock and barrel.
You didn’t bring up Jesus specifically, but after I accused you of committing the ultimate sin by trying to dispense Divine Justice in your plan, you responded in defense by saying that what you are doing may actually be God’s plan. I proceeded to refute that by saying it goes against the teachings of the Bible and Jesus.
Biblical scholars can “all agree that the Bible is quite straightforward and should be taken literally”, but regardless of what Triv would call an appeal to authority argument, I am sorry, I just don’t buy that Moses parted the Red Sea or that Jesus walked on Water.
I do believe though that quite a bit of the History in the Bible is correct, including the fact that a Preacher named Jesus likely was walking around Rome and the periphery during some exceedingly hard times. Son of God though? No moreso than you or I are Sons of God in all probability. Do you take LITERALLY that Jesus was the Son of God? This may be the source of our differing perceptions of the Bible.
You are missing the point here. It is irrelevant whether Moses actually parted the Red Sea or Jesus performed miracles. What is relevant is what the the spiritual teachings of Christianity are, based on a thorough examination of the historical/textual evidence. Our perceptions on that shouldn’t differ any more than they differ on what any other religion teaches, or on what any other ancient documents have said. I only brought this up to refute your assertion that OMMP could be the plan of God from the Bible – I don’t think TRUE believers would take kindly to using their faith as justification for genocide, no matter how well thought out it is.
Reverse Engineer post=3348 wrote: You didn’t answer the question. Do you tke LITERALLY that Jesus was the Son of God?
RE
Your question actually has two different meanings, but I will go ahead and answer both of them.
1) According to Christianity and the Bible, Jesus was LITERALLY the Son of God, which is really the equivalent of God Himself. I absolutely do not believe that the New Testament Gospels were documenting the life of a normal human being that existed in history. They were not using metaphors or anything like that when they described the miracles he performed.
2) As to my personal beliefs, I DON’T KNOW and I don’t pretend to know for certain whether God exists and whether Jesus was the Son of God. I have not reached any firm conclusions on those things one way or the other. It most certainly is not outside the realm of possibility for me.
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