Homo sapien v. FWS
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Great idea Ash!
However, is this just theoretical, or do you want to file an actual lawsuit? If so, can we find a Lawyer to take the case Pro-Bono? Is there a member of the Bar out there in the TAE community currently UE who wouid like to make a name for him/herself?
I do see some problems with this though. First would be classifying all of zhumanity as “Wildlife”. Homo Industrialis, most of Humanity right now isn’t Wild, it is Captive. Probably the only Humans you could make a case for being “Wildlife” would be the Bushmen of the Kalahari, some Aboriginal Australians, some Inuit in Nunavut and some Amazonian Tribes. Otherwise, all HUMAN Wildlife is already extinct.
Countering that argument, you could make the case that Industrialization itself is the cause of wiping out Wild Humans, so therefore in order to save Wild Humans the FWS needs to use its mandate to outlaw Industrialization!
Sadly of course, I doubt this will gain much traction, but you could get a lot of Publicity if you actually filed said Lawsuit. As Spokesman for the Doomstead Diner Community, consider us IN on a Class Action lawsuit with TAE.
In the book ‘Man’s Rise to Civilization’, by Peter Farb, I recall seeing an estimate of 12 million as the number of human beings in present day USA borders, at the time of European settlement. Or maybe the estimate was 3 to 12 million.
We know that in those places where there are not too many humans, or none at all, things are fine, for the most part. It is only those places where there are a lot of humans, or human activity, that are screwed up.
In order to restore clean water and other niceties, in those high population areas, we need some sort of population reduction, or some sort of technology increase, that addresses the inevitable trauma of high population density.
Unfortunately, other than modern sewage treatment plants, most technology has been used to decimate the environment. It is very hard to be optimistic about this.
In an authoritarian, heavily overpopulated country like China, where the ‘one child’ policy was somewhat of a flop, I would go about it like this, for rural families. You are allowed to have one child. If you show that you are exceptionally good stewards of the land, especially in terms of using sustainable methods of agriculture, you can have a second child.
pipefit post=3038 wrote:
In an authoritarian, heavily overpopulated country like China, where the ‘one child’ policy was somewhat of a flop, I would go about it like this, for rural families. You are allowed to have one child. If you show that you are exceptionally good stewards of the land, especially in terms of using sustainable methods of agriculture, you can have a second child.
So what do you do in the case where the people VIOLATE the law and OOPS have a second child? Do you Imprison them? Forced Abortion? Expose the Infant on a Mountain Top after it is born? What?
Also, your Final Solution here is only talking about Rural Families with some direct connection to the land. How do you limit the reproductive rights of people who live in the Big Shities of China, or anywhere else? Is it by how much MONEY you make? Do you institute a Means Test for procreation? If so, again what do you do when people VIOLATE the LAW and OOPS get pregnant because OOPS they got drunk and forgot the condom?
I DO have a procreation Final Solution I think is pretty fair, but I’ll write it down in the Frosbite Falls MEMBERS ONLY table in the Diner :P, not here on TAE. Regardless though, at this stage of the game in the Birth-Death Population control mechanism, we have long since past the ability to resolve the problem just on the Birth End of the equation. MANY people have to DIE here now. Finding the most Just Method of determining who lives and who dies is the great challenge of the spin down. NO Method will be absolutely Just, but some methods are more Just than others.
I SEE Dead People.
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3035 wrote: Sadly of course, I doubt this will gain much traction, but you could get a lot of Publicity if you actually filed said Lawsuit. As Spokesman for the Doomstead Diner Community, consider us IN on a Class Action lawsuit with TAE.
Yes, the Feds will do exactly jack shit at this point to help preserve humanity, but you may be right about the publicity. Before hiring any attorneys and firing any lawsuits, though, we have to file the initial ESA petition with the FWS. It would obviously have to be a bit more involved than what I have above, but it wouldn’t have to contain all of the scientific evidence needed to make the case for a listing – that could come later. I think we could come up with clever ways of classifying a large portion of humans as “wild animals”, based on indigenous populations of certain areas, homeless populations, people without adequate access to facets of modern industrial society, etc. Then, once the petition is naturally rejected, we draft the complaint for a lawsuit.
Even if many people are now destined to die from economic/ecological collapse, it helps to recognize that the activities of private corporations and governments around the world are only making a bad situation worse and many of them should be curtailed/eliminated. If population control is a necessary element of species recovery, then maybe we can come up with some just ways of going about it (like the ones RE proposes), but only AFTER we use all other methods of mitigating the threat of extinction.
RE said, “So what do you do in the case where the people VIOLATE the law and OOPS have a second child? Do you Imprison them? Forced Abortion? Expose the Infant on a Mountain Top after it is born? What?
Also, your Final Solution here is only talking about Rural Families with some direct connection to the land. How do you limit the reproductive rights of people who live in the Big Shities of China, or anywhere else?”
That isn’t my ‘final solution’, lol. I’m just throwing out ideas that I think are relevant to the topic. Part of the test of any proposed solution to a problem is whether it has any chance at all of making it into public policy. In the case of China, the 1-child policy is already in place. I’m not an advocate of 1-child. But since China has a huge population problem, and 1-child is already in place, I think my suggestion is a good way to improve it. Your question about enforcement is absurd. The authorities over there enforce whatever they want, no matter how unjust. Why would they have qualms about enforcing a far more just policy?
“….not here on TAE”
Are you paying Ash for all the advertizing you do here? If not, you are spamming. Doesn’t really bother me, but there are a lot of sites on the web, I don’t have time to read them all. I’m sure your site is a great place for interesting discussion, but my plate is already full.pipefit post=3042 wrote:
Are you paying Ash for all the advertizing you do here? If not, you are spamming. Doesn’t really bother me, but there are a lot of sites on the web, I don’t have time to read them all. I’m sure your site is a great place for interesting discussion, but my plate is already full.I’m PLUGGING, not spamming.
Spamming is when you drop in a lot of nonsense in a thread which has nothing to do with the topic. I don’t do that. I write thoughtful commentary appropriate tot he discussion, and then throw in a Plug.
You can think of TAE as the “Tonight Show” and Ashvin is Johnny Carson and I am Tiny Tim. I come on, chat a little with Johnny, then sing “Tip Toe thru the Tulips” while strumming on my Ukelele.
Sorry about your Full Plate. Top Notch Cuisine over in the Diner 🙂
“I DO have a procreation Final Solution I think is pretty fair, but I’ll write it down in the Frosbite Falls MEMBERS ONLY table in the Diner , not here on TAE.”
The way to get thoughtful posters over to your site is to post a brief summary of your great idea here. If you can set that ‘hook’ with the beginning of a great idea, I’ll go to your site to red the full post, assuming I don’t have to pay any money to become a member.
Basically, we have a catch-22 type situation in play. The thing that enables man to build huge cities and enjoy a high std. of living is civilization and division of labor. Div. of labor leads to technological advances in agriculture and medicine, which in turn lead to vast increases in population.
It is not a permanent solution, but we could probably buy a few decades of time if we could do away with war and the big military budgets. Costa Rica, for example, has no significant army, and they are far more advanced, in many ways, than the rest of Central America. So it is possible, just not likely.
pipefit post=3046 wrote: “I DO have a procreation Final Solution I think is pretty fair, but I’ll write it down in the Frosbite Falls MEMBERS ONLY table in the Diner , not here on TAE.”
The way to get thoughtful posters over to your site is to post a brief summary of your great idea here. If you can set that ‘hook’ with the beginning of a great idea, I’ll go to your site to red the full post, assuming I don’t have to pay any money to become a member.
Basically, we have a catch-22 type situation in play. The thing that enables man to build huge cities and enjoy a high std. of living is civilization and division of labor. Div. of labor leads to technological advances in agriculture and medicine, which in turn lead to vast increases in population.
It is not a permanent solution, but we could probably buy a few decades of time if we could do away with war and the big military budgets. Costa Rica, for example, has no significant army, and they are far more advanced, in many ways, than the rest of Central America. So it is possible, just not likely.
I periodically do drop excerpts onto TAE 🙂 Not in this case because I haven’t written it yet. At least not an updated version, I covered the topic a few years ago in debates on Peak Oil with “St. Matthew’s Island” Monte Quest.
Anyhow, right now on DD the HI vs Deflation debate Guest Starring Ashvin is pretty hot, and I just got off the Alaska Railroad in Talkeetna so I’ll be writing an article on that tonight with lots of great pics.
Is that enough plugging?
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3050 wrote:
Anyhow, right now on DD the HI vs Deflation debate Guest Starring Ashvin is pretty hot, and I just got off the Alaska Railroad in Talkeetna so I’ll be writing an article on that tonight with lots of great pics.
RE
I’m thinking if we all just start calling it ‘flation, it’ll save alot of time.
Because no matter what the specifics, ‘flation is going to destroy the economy, cause chaos, and make life harder from us all.
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