Reverse Engineer
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ben post=2159 wrote: why would they use ZPE now and not later when there are fewer people to control? what makes now the right time? don’t they have the non-negotiable toll on the biosphere of billions of humans to factor in?
Because why would you turn your own backyard into a poisoned and irradiated sewer not fit for anything above the level of the tardigrades to live on if you had the means to control world population (and eliminate it also if you so chose) in a clean manner? It seems rather stupid even for nefarious Illuminati to poison the planet they live on if they don’t have to do that.
RE
TheTrivium4TW post=2148 wrote: Hi RE,
If you read the part of my post you didn’t quote, the 100 or so (as a possibility and little more – I have no idea what the true number is) excluded the managers, which you then add back in to challenge the 100 number.
Rothkopf thinks the high level decision makers number about 6,000 – as cited in his book Superclass. This may well include just the management team of the The Architects and not the Architects themselves – they don’t like spotlights, just authoritarian control.
I agree that a systems approach is very valuable, in fact necessary, to get a grip on what is going on here.
But I wouldn’t dismiss The Architects of the system as readily as you do. Obviously, this crime scene is intergenerational, but the current generation operating it have incredible wealth, influence and control – and ending this system will only cause them to create another.
Yes, it is ultimately crime that is bad when you are a victim, but to ignore the criminal who perpetrated it is to pretty much ensure another crime manifestation will show itself in the future.
I’m not going to quibble about trying to fix a precise number to the very TOP of the Food Chain here, other than to say I think it is more than 100 but less than 10,000, for a 2 order of magnitude spread of possibilities. In any event in a world with 7B people, its a very small fraction that run the show and call the shots here.
In any group of such size, there are going to be factions with different agendas and priorities. This is not a uniform group by any means IMHO. The “battle” here at the moment is mainly at the Top, even though of course J6P is currently taking the biggest hit here in terms of wealth expropriation. Nevertheless, its the top players who are positioning themselves with respect to each other on the Chess Board.
To extend the Chess metaphor somewhat, imagine a board where all the Pawns have been wiped out. This basically is equivalent to eviscerating all the wealth of the Middle and Lower classes of society, leaving them with nothing. The game is not OVER though, because Bishops and Knights still cruise around the Chessboard looking to gain control of more squares. They only have EACH OTHER to fight at this point, the Pawns are gone from the game.
What I see occurring here as this game progresses is further Cannibalism at the Top of the Food Chain. What can be extracted from J6P is basically tapped out at this point, as I made the case to Ash, I don’t think even Slavery of either the Debt kind or the explicit kind is a profitable venture anymore. If you cannot extract wealth from the Slaves, who is left to do that from? Only from each other really, so it is my belief that the Top of the Food chain here will Cannibalize each other, and quite rapidly really in Civilization terms once it gets going in earnest.
You say you believe these folks have such control that they will be able in the aftermath of this collapse to set up a new system, I do not think this is so. I often argue this point with my partner on DD Peter, who believes as you do that these folks can maintain control through the spin down. I think the control is wholly dependent on Conduits developed thRough the Industrial Era which upon collapse will make it impossible to run any type of Global System of control as exists now. I think they will fight each other and consume each other as there is No Honor Amongst Thieves. I believe their power will dissipate and diminish as Energy resource becomes net negative in EROEI.
I do not think that there is Zero Point Energy that will be accessed, or Abiotic Oil, though both might in theory exist. They are both plausible hypotheses, but not likely ones under the circumstances we see developing. It makes no sense to destroy your own habitat if in fact you did have access to either one of these possibilities. If they were accessible in the near future or even the present, then they could be used easily to maintain the kind of perpetual Dystopian Vison that Huxley and Orwell painted as likely so many years ago. If that POWER was available to use, I see no reason why Power Seekers such as the top group is would not access it and use it NOW.
I do not paint a rosy picture for the future, but neither do I think it is true that our current set of Illuminati masters, who are in many cases descended from long running familial lines can possibly maintain control of this spin down as it works its way inward.
In the end, they will LOSE, because the Meek Shall Inherit the Earth. Right AFTER the Meek get Very, VERY Angry.
AndrewP post=2139 wrote: This article is nonsense. The Central bank’s power to print money is unlimited. Infinite. Infinity always wins over countervailing forces that are finite.
Da Fed’s power is not Infinite, because the world is not Infinite. Da Fed can print FRNs, but it cannot Print Oil. The Dollar serves as a Proxy for Oil, so printing more FRNs just drives down the value of the Dollar against the Oil, making it less affordable and thus generating still more Demand Destruction and Bankruptcies of companies that utilize Oil to produce and deliver goods and services, which is about all of them.
If Da Fed prints to buy up Trash for Cash, the money flows into speculation in Oil which prices just about everybody out of the market, thus destroying the Oil Economy. The collapse just happens a little slower is all. Da Fed is not All Powerful, they run up against the Law of Nature that you cannot Make Something from Nothing.
Oil, Industrialization and the Dollar are all virtually synonymous and have been so since the days of John D. Rockefeller. Da Fed is just the step-child of the Rockefeller and Rothschild domination of the currency markets since the Age of Oil began, and actually going back further than that to the Age of Coal as well. The platform is wholly dependent on cheap EROEI Oil available to waste, and when it no longer is so available, this model collapses. Da Fed cannot do anything about that at all, just slow it down some until a Tipping Point is reached, at which point said collapse will come very fast and very hard.
The only real question which is valid these days is the Timeline for this, how long before the Political system breaks down, because that is going to come before the Economic system crashes. A decade maybe? Hasrd to say here but its not going to get any better as we move along here, regardless of the actions of Da Fed. The system is Toast and they know it.
Its called “plugging”. New blogs take a lot of promotion to get known.
New for today, I resurrected the Frostbite Falls Daily Rant 🙂
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/forum/index.php?topic=160.0
RE
pipefit post=2115 wrote:
This process of state/local/private pension destruction will make millions even MORE dependent on social security, medicare, military pensions, VA benefits, federal govt. worker pensions, etc. This increased dependency will make even HARDER to reduce these programs. And since these programs will be funded almost entirely with ‘out of thin air’ money, the result will be hyper inflation.The Pentagon has been funded for 30 years out of “thin air money”. Why did that not cause a hyperinflation?
RE
TheTrivium4TW post=2110 wrote:
How many people does he cite as being involved in creating and forcing Debt Dollar tyranny down our throats – and guaranteeing our national bankruptcy?Triv, although I agree that a relatively small number of people put into place “Debt-Dollar Tyranny”, this is not the real problem here. The problem is one of systems, not so much people. if it was just people it would not persist for more than a generation or two.
A system of money came to be created for many reasons, but mainly it was a outcome of agriculture. Many such systems developed over the millenia, but over time one system swallowed them all up. Reasons for that go mostly back to “Guns Germs and Steel” ad who got there first with respect to industrialization.
The outcome of this is that there are a relatively few people who “own” most everything, and then everybody else who has to work under the system they manage. However, to limit that to 100 people up at the top is probably not correct, becuase over time the system creates many managers, new ones all the time really. Bill Gates for instance I do not think has Plantaganet origins in his family tree, but nevertheless he became part of the system by working it well.
There are IMHO other more shadowy figures out there than Bill Gates who control much more than he does, but I personally do not think a small cabal of Old Jews or Elders of Zion or even Reptiles are running this show. What is running this show is a SYSTEM that had its origins back in the dawn of recorded history, and a relatively few people have always been in control of this system. However, in any given generation its not necessarily all the SAME people, it cannot be because people die of course. Its not even pure in its familial lines, although to be sure the biggest Pigmen above Bill Gates come from very old fortunes.
The sytem however is the important thing, not the people, though of course those who run the system must be accountable for their actions, if not i this world then in the Great Beyond. How many of them are actually responsible here? Many more than 100. You have CB heads, Corporate Heads of companies like GE and Exxon, the list goes on and on here. They are all part of a system created long ago, and it is their JOB to perpetuate that system. It is the system of the world in monetary terms. When it fails, not if, all that we have known since the Dawn of Agriculture will be no more. This is what they are trying to stop from occurrinng, or at least slow it down some. They cannot win this game, the system is overloaded and shot to hell. They will however attempt to maitain control of it for so long as they can. In my estimation, that will not be much longer, but the intervening time here is going to be mighty ugly.
RE
TheTrivium4TW post=2109 wrote:
Re: RE.
My recommendation is to not take him personally. I don’t think he realizes that you might actually have feelings. 😉
I think he’s in “competition mode” – I think you said you played basketball in your podcast with TEE. Have you ever entered that hyper-competitive mode where you aren’t about to take something you perceive as crap from anyone and are much quicker to express an opinion (in the heat of battle, of course)?
I think RE’s in that mode… hyper-competitive mode.
I recommend just registering that in your head and keeping that in mind goign forward.
Having said that, I do think he has a point… once you start name calling a POV, you have essentially shut out that POV – even if it is right.
RE has basically spent way too many years debating way too many topics with way too many people to any longer have any real good grasp on what offends anyone or how to play by the Marquis de Queensbury Rules. I lose it all the time and get positively unbearable. Its part of my charm. LOL.
Be it known here no matter how vitriolic I will get that I never really harbor any ill will against any opponent in an argument. I don’t hold a grudge except on real rare occasions where somebody is persistently an asshole. Mainly, I just refuse to be out-Napalmed by anyone. If I detect subtle napalm like snarky replies, I return with a bigger gun, or sometimes thermonuclear prose. If you argue with me, you have to be real careful about how you phrase the posting, because I have a very short fuse. When it gets lit, I go ballistic. This is my nature, its how I post on the internet. I have been banned many times from many boards because of this propensity for going full tilt mean in an argument.
I will say for the record I agree with about 90% of what Ashvin writes, and I actually do like some of the more academic metaphors also. However the 10% of the time he writes stuff I find objectionable is what causes the friction. It will always be there, and it occassionally will flare up into a napalm contest. That is the nature of internet arguments, I know this after so may years pursuing the hobby.
Finally, as I did over on DD, I will apologize here for the Low Blow of my “poll”. It was over the top and uncalled for, I dropped a Nuke on a Brushfire for no good reason. Dumbass move on my part.
RE
ashvin post=2106 wrote: [quote=pipefit post=2101]The idea that state and local government budget problems will be a big driver in a deflationary depression is misguided. Look at it this way. All state and local govt. pension plans COMBINED, are estimated to be UNDERfunded by somewhere between $1 trillion and $3 trillion. Since these entities can’t print or coin money, there is a max $3 trillion of deflationary forces, as perceived pension wealth is destroyed.
There are several logical flaws contained within your post. One, you are not properly describing the way debt deflation works. It is rooted in positive feedback mechanisms which greatly magnify the impact of the deleveraging. For ex., $3T in pensions wiped out does not mean only $3 in wealth disappears from workers/households, but much more, because it will feed back into depressed spending, business revenues, taxes, increased unemployment, etc., etc.
As to your other point, you are simply assuming the Fed government will print to cover any and all shortfalls in entitlement programs, which is unsurprisingly what most HI advocates like to do. You also seem to be assuming a deflationary process is not already underway, when it actually is. That’s what job losses, lower incomes, fewer benefits, lower profits/revenues in private/public sector, lower property valuations, lower investment/spending, etc. means – deflation.
This is exactly correct. The Hyperinflationista only sees the price Inflation of essential good ithe economy, he does not recognize the deflation in the wages and the bankruptcies of many biznesses and the layoffs of workers both public and private as a part of the spiral.Far as the $3T in unfunded local pension liabilities go, they will get rolled into the same palce that all failed pension funds do, a Federal Resolution scheme which will pay out some level of penies on the dollar there to the pensioners. The alternative of course is to have a lot of Graybeards rummaging through garbage cans, which this society is not quite ready for yet.
Da Goobermint printing money to make these pension payments is NOT sufficient to drive a Hyperinflation, because even at current levels of payments penisoners cannot afford to pay out more money for their essentials. Hyperinflation would only occur if Da Goobermint started handing out MORE money to pensioners, but it is not doing that, it is CUTTING their bennies. Whe Da Goobermint starts handing out Pension Checks with multiple Zeros attached to the end, then you get your Hyperinflation. Long as Da Goobermint starves out the pensioners, all you get is some inflation of necessary goods, but deflation everywhere else you can see. I will not hold my breath waitig for Helicopter Ben to drop Megabucks on Pensioners as he does on the TBTF Banks.
RE
I wrote an article last year addressing the problem of Goobermints downsizing their workforce, so I put it up on DD.
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/04/08/scapegoating-da-goobermint-unions/
Meanwhile, folks like Mish are having their Wet Dream come true of the Goobermint Unions being destroyed. Sadly Mish, this isn’t going to solve the economic problems, it will just make them WORSE. Laying off Goobermint workers and cutting pensions just means that you will have fewer people with disposable income to keep the consumer based economy running. This will drive more private biznesses which exist as a result of their disposable income to go belly up also. Austerity doesn’t work to make you more solvent in such a system, it just drives a deflationary spiral. It is irrelevant here how much money Helicopter Ben prints, it just is not getting distributed out into the consumer economy. The fake money eventually will go up in smoke. Prices in commodities will rise past the ability of the people to buy them, there will be excess product causing more companies to fail, prices will fall and speculators who did not exit fast enough will get hammered.
Nassim post=2095 wrote:
RE seems to be a firm believer in the “broken window” theory of economics – where it does not really matter what the spending goes on.
Where do you get that interpretation from?
The only thing I am a firm believer in is that monetary systems are the Root of all Evil. NOBODY has any “money”, its conjured up out of thin air. You can make it disappear with a stroke of a pen in Bankruptcy and you can recreate it with the stroke of a pen in a Bankster’s Loan department. Henry Ford went BK I think it was twice before he finally got the Model T’s rolling off the production line.
What I am telling you is that Goobermint shutting down in concert with no money flowing out through Loans to “private” industry means you totally lock up commerce. What Moneybags is going to step up to the plate here to employ anybody to do anything? Apple will contract out to Foxconn for Chinese Slaves for as long as Amerikans still have some working money to buy I-phones, but that is about it here for the “private” sector.
Just how deep does this collapse have to go before people grasp there ain’t no such thing as a “private” sector? There is just the very well connected top of the food chain folks who can loan themselves endless money on the public dime, and when they stop building railroads and carz because said biznesses function strictly by wasting resource, the whole house of cards collapses.
RE
Golden Oxen post=2093 wrote: @ RE So the crashed out no job private sector has to provide full employment and outlandish wages to the unproductive public sector in order to keep the ship afloat? You could be correct, but as you say RE, this entire situation is a real problem that has to be solved very soon.
The “private” sector can’t provide full employment or outlandish wages since other than the TBTF Banks who get intravenous injections of Public Money, the private sector is broke.
The only way to keep the ship floating at this point if you are trying to do it on a monetary level is to repudiate all the debt and go full on Commie hiring people for Goobermint work projects. There isn’t profit to be made out in the Private sector, it always just sieves off the surplus and waste of what Goobermint supports, like the Railroads or the Interstate Highways etc. Read Large Public Works Projects I&II to understand how the money flows from Goobermint to the bottom layer of commerce.
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/03/03/large-public-works-projects-part-i/
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/03/05/large-publics-works-projects-part-ii/
RE
I never cease to be amazed a how people think that by cutting Goobemint payroll and budgets you can possibly work your way into solvency. Every worker that is dropped from his Goobermint Job no longer can pay his Mortgage and no longer pays in any Taxes. For as long as it exists anyhow, he also starts to draw money from the Unemployment Isurance Ponzi.
Same Goobermints cutting budgets also stop hiring “private” contractors to do any number of tasks, from clearig the snow off the street to repairing the potholes left behind in the spring thaw. Still MORE unemployed folks i the “private” sector now on the UE roles as Da Local Goobermint slashes the budget.
There is I think a false dichotomization between what is the “public” payroll and the “private” one. Just about everything depends on Da Goobermint pushing out money into one sector of the economy or another and then gettig it to circulate around. The problem here is that Public or Private, the money is not circulating. Just about everything is a Money Losing proposition, so both Public and Private in order not to Lose Money, you stop spending it. Except once you STOP spending, the whole economy goes into a tailspin.
The “Private” sector is not going to rebound here once you evicerate Da Goobermint budgets. It will just wither and die right along with that process. In fact it probably collapses faster than Goobermint does because Goobermint is the source of the money in the end, even if it is “privatized” money creation.
The State will collapse in its entirety if it does not succeed in creating productive work for people to do in the society. A failed state means no working money, because the state is the SOURCE of the money. Needless to say, you do not create productive work for people simply by cutting out their current jobs, unproductive as they might be. You gotta replace it with SOMETHING, and nobody is replacing it with ANYTHING.
This is a real problem.
RE
Golden Oxen post=2087 wrote: If it was a chimera Mr Paladin, why did they ever have to break the link? In the case of the US by an official proclamation from tricky Dick Nixon.
Because that which occurs at the Nation-State level is not the same as that which occurs at the Main Street level of an economy. The link had to be broken because without an ever increasing money supply you could not continue on with the Industrial Paradigm. By going off a fixed standard the War Machine could continue onward for these last 40 years or so. Had Nixon not broken the Gold link, the Pentagon would have run outta cash and all that we are seeing now would have begun a whole lot sooner. The economy would have deflated then and Americans would have begun living in the same kid of 3rd World Poverty the rest of the world was in. The Industrial Economy and its associated War Machine was propped up with Debt. If you Nixon had remained fixed to Gold, none of this would have been possible and the whole thing would have crashed 40 years ago. We got a 40 year long Party on Debt here as a result of this choice, but had Nixon chosen otherwise the paradigm would have crashed all that much sooner. Nixon was a survivor, and he was as bought and paid for as any Politician ever was. So he shut the Gold Window to stay Rich to his death, and keep his Illuminati Masters even more rich.
RE
Golden Oxen post=2069 wrote: Mr Paladin, You have a problem with the gold bug part of it because it doesn’t circulate. The paper money that is circulating now was a derivative of gold. The link was broken by the banksters so they could print all the paper money and create all the credit that they wished. That is why we are in a financial disaster. The gold will be resurrected and its link restored to the derivative paper in the resurrection of the deflated world economy.
Any link that paper money ever had to Gold was a complete chimera. Back in the Gold era, banks regularly went Bust because Banksters ALWAYS print more paper than they actually have Gold to redeem for that paper. There is no profit in Banking if you don’t Fractional Reserve the lending and hope the whole system grows with still more Gold getting dug up out of the ground.
Probably 90% of the gold ever mined is now sequestered away in various Vaults uder the control of a few Sovereign states and a few Illuminati. This stuff is never going to be distributed out to people to use as coinage and basing any Paper Money on it is just a load of Horseshit that Banksters have been pulling since the time of Babylon. Gold has no real intrisic value anyhow, any more than a Cowrie Shell does, it just made for a diffiucult to Couterfeit form of money for while. All money is just a Proxy for the value of other things, and when the actual value of other things changes it wreaks havoc on the proxy value of money.
The real Value in our society was leveraged up on the back of a whole lot of cheap energy. All the factories built, all the McMasions and all the Carz are the “Value” of Industrial Civilization. All the Debt taken on to leverage up that system is a part of the “value” also. ALL these things LOSE their value once the Oil becomes too expensive to run them all. Substituting Gold as Money does not resolve that problem even if you could get it all out of the Basement Safes of the Pigmen who control it, and you can’t do that either.
Gold has a long history and has a hold on the desire of people to be able to store their accumulated wealth in some manner. The problem is that the accumulated wealth of this society is resultant from the thermodynamic energy of fossil fuels, and that is past its peak and on the way down here. What value Gold will have in this slide remains open to question, but its actual utility as money is not in question. That is about done here.
RE
Candace post=2068 wrote:
RE also stated that he suspects that no more than 100 or so are the players in control.
BULLSHIT! I have never stated any such thing on any message board at any time in this Universe. There are WAY more than 100 people involved in this, hell that would not even cover all the heirs of Mayer Rothschild.
I’m glad you, Triv, RE, and Ben have got the answer and will be able to fix the human race. Sincerely. I hope it happens. From where I’m sitting things are looking quite bleak.
Candace
None of the 3 of us far as I can tell have claimed we have an answer that will fix the Human Race, at least not before there are a lot of Dead People. In this respect, I would say we all see a pretty bleak future also.
I do hold out some hope for Humanity though, and after all is said and done I hope that we can emerge to build a Better Tomorrow living under better principles in harmony with the Earth ad its processes. We will not be getting from here to there though in a pailess manner. I SEE Dead People.
ashvin post=2077 wrote:
It’s amazing to think this thread ended up with others [cough, RE, cough] questioning TAE as a site and talking about launching a poll on my popularity. Joke or no joke, could you imagine yourself ever stooping so low to suggest that, Triv, as a part of an otherwise intellectual discussion about conspiracy narratives? Yeah, I didn’t think so.Nobody, and I mean NOBODY not even Jimbo Quinn will stoop lower than I will stoop in a Napalm Contest 🙂 Remember there are NO RULES in a Knife Fight. While definitely there was plenty of substantive discussion going here WRT Conspiracy Theory, there was ALSO plenty of Smoke being thrown. When the Heat starts being thrown around a thread, I bring Nolan Ryan RE out of the Bullpen, and I’m talking the Nolan Ryan of my youth who was just as likely to bean a batter as strike him out. Once I flip on the Napalm Switch, I just have NO CONTROL of what the fingers will do on the keyboard. Its best generally just to Duck and Cover 🙂
That being said, I’m glad you took it with reasonably good humour as it is just my way of saying Hello 🙂 After more than a decade writing on internet message boards, I have been involved in more Napalm contests than I can possibly count and I consider them to be just a part of the whole experience.
Finally, I do look forward to reading your thoughts on Geotectonic Ocean Heat Transfer theory as opposed to the Anthropogenic hypothesis most commonly accepted as true. That could prove to be a interesting discussion, hopefully free of Napalm. LOL
RE
OK folks, in between exchanging Napalm with Ashvin and speculating on Climate Change variables with Triv, I have been doing some more Site Improvements over on DD.
I have changed the Redirect on the .com URL to bring you straight to the Newz Page, which now Features Automatic Earth as one of the Primary Information sources for people to visit. Ashvin’s “Scaling” article got the nod on this one.
You’ll also find links and excerpts from a couple of other real good Blogs on the Newz Page, Economic Undertow which Steve writes and Our Finite World which is Gail’s Blog. Plus of course Polling and Vid Widgets which I just love to play with also 🙂
To visit the Newz Page directly, go to
https://www.doomsteaddiner.comTo visit the Blog directly, go to
https://www.doomsteaddiner.orgYou can of course navigate around to either one and the Forum once you go to either URL.
RE
TheTrivium4TW post=2052 wrote:
[edit – I read through most of your article and I think you bring up some interesting points worthy of more thorough investigation. The complexity of the system as a whole is simply immense]
No doubt, the sytem requires a lot more investigation before you can make a definitive conclusion on this issue. Insofar as the “scientific community” is concerned though, its about 99% considered a Done Deal, climate change is Anthropogenic and a result of icreased Carbon Emissions from Fossil Fuels. If you deviate from that viewpoint, you are considered a “Crackpot” and you get ridiculed for it.
I of course have no issues with being labelled a Crackpot, since I’m not worried about getting published in mainstream Journals. IMHO though, the data speaks for itself. A HUGE amout of Energy is being erealeased from Earthquakes and Vulcanism these days, and it simply dwarfs the chemical buring of Oil. In a system as big as the Earth, with Oceans so big as they are, this is a HUGE heat sink. You cannot raise the Heat Content of the Ocean an order of magnitude by driving around a few Carz, especially if the Atmospheric Heat hasn’t changed all that much. The Oceans are heating up for another reason, and it is NOT athropgenic in origin. IMHO.
RE
http//www.doomsteaddiner.comThe problem with scaling down, or REVERSE ENGINEERING society to work again on older systems is that the population grew too much during the period of cheap energy to scale back without also scaling back the population size.
A simple example would be Container ships which move goods off boats i large quantities quite rapidly using Cranes and Forklifts and then Trucks or Rail cars that accept the containers. Imagine trying to move a similar quantity of material off of Sailboats using Longshoremen and then Wagons pulled by horses. You just could not do it, the boats would be lined up 10 nautical miles deep offshore waiting to get unloaded.
The scenario nobody planned for or considered realistically once getting ON the Industrial Paradigm is how you can get OFF of it. The tacit assumption made all through this time is that other forms of Energy would eventually be accessed to keep the system running. The meme was that we would eventually have Matter-Antimatter engines that would take us Trekking the Stars eating Food replicated from pure Energy.
I think you can scale back to older systems which worked, but not with anywhere near the current population walking the Earth. The big problem facing the world is how you reduce population in the same kind of timeframe that energy is disappearing; it can’t be accomplished through Birth Control even if that worked demographically and it doesn’t.
Our Leaders don’t want to face up to or verbalize this problem, because of course it is Political Suicide to do that. How do you inform a population that probably 90% of them have to DIE before we can scale back to systems that are sustainable here? This would not be a very popular platform on a Democratic level anyhow. It could be a popular platform amongst the 10% who get to Live of course.
TheTrivium4TW post=2048 wrote:
Surely, nobody is arguing that the Soviets made their dictatorship one where the people “rather enjoyed their servitude,” but that is EXACTLY what I observe in the Western world at the hands of the scientific, technocrat “soft but hardening” oligarchical dictatorship.
Really? You think all the folks currently rioting in Spain and Italy are enjoying their servitude? Maybe the ones who are still employed are sorta enjoying it, but not even most of them because they can’t meet their bills or increasing taxes. About the only people really enjoying it are the 1% running the show buying $5000/night Hookers and aeatig Canapes in the Hamptons.
Far as desiger drugs go, so far they don’t seem to have invented one that keeps a society docile when they don’t have any work to do and can’t feed their children.
Huxley’s Brave New World only works if there is plenty of Oil to waste. Oil too expensive, that particular vision of dystopia is History. Mad Max on the other hand is a real possiility here.
RE
TheTrivium4TW post=2040 wrote:
Did I miss a specific link? If so, would you be so kind to post again?
TIA…
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/04/02/geotectonic-ocean-heat-transfer-theory/
RE
TheTrivium4TW post=2030 wrote:
Hi RE,
I’m surprised you have so little respect for I&S’ call to allow Ash to run the forum while they are gone.
While I get that Ash’s “academic” style and prose won’t sit well with people outside of the “academia mindset,” that’s Ash.
We value freedom – and that means we appreciate differences.
Tyrants want everyone like themselves.
I’ll call out Ash’ thought process when I think there is an issue, but I think personalizing the debate and attempting to collect data in order to reflect negatively on someone is a bit over the top, no?
I doubt Ash is making a killing here and I appreciate him running the website with and for S&I…
Ash, for all his talents and all his faults (we all have both), is on the right side of history here… he’s on the right team and I’m proud to have him in my bunker and I appreciate his efforts.
I vote NO for any kind of poll that subverts Ash’s input here. He’s doing fine and we all can “smooth out the edges” as we resist this covert, scientific tyranny that is enveloping us all.
I also appreciate the birdman, too…
Where and why did The Big El G “fly the coop?”
We really, really need to thicken the skin and all stand together. Look to “content of character” and overlook faults. Sure, point them out, but in a kind manner, not a subversive manner.
As I said to Candace over in the other thread, Lighten up!
I don’t disrespect S & I’s choice here, it’s hard to find anyone who can keep up the pace of writing for a blog like Ashvin has done, regardless of the style. I also agree with Ashvin on a whole heck of a lot of what he writes, but if he doesn’t grasp that he is turning off some people then he just isn’t readinng his own blog for comprehension. I am attempting in my own inimitable and as you note ‘irreverent’ manner to bring this to Ash’s attention.
As to El G’s reasons for his disappearance, he hasn’t written them for us, but VSA wrote his issues down, and Ben continues on with his extended set of complaints here. I should just ignore all of this stuff and be greatful that S&I found a sucker who would take on the job of keeping the blog and forum operational while they are globe trotting? The stuff is going up here on the board for all to read, I am commenting on that and contributing my opinion on why I think it is occurring. The “poll” was a JOKE, its not a real poll designed to gather any worthwhile data, the choices are mostly silly. They do represent though parodies of things that are real and apparent here in what people are writing.
On other topics, what did you thik of my data on Climate Change?
RE
JoeP post=2012 wrote: Jack,
In case you haven’t noticed there have been several “moments of friction” here recently between Ash and…well, there’s El G, Ben, and RE…am I missing someone? Of course this is TAE and Ash is always right …and the people I mentioned just must be “misunderstanding” what he is saying – but he clearly understands everything they are saying.
Joe, perhaps you missed the “Why I stopped reading TAE” thread by VSA, with a comment from PG 🙂
https://theautomaticearth.org/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=19&id=1943&Itemid=96
Granpa I believe also has expressed some dissatisfaction. Ash hasn’t responded to all of these comments of course, but the criticism is definitely still there whether he will recognize it or not.
I don’t know if there is a Polling Widget here on TAE as of yet, but I will volunteer my Polling Widget on DD for all of you TAE readers to Vote Anonymously on Ashvin’s Popularity as Big Cheese on TAE :-D. I’ll update this post as soon as I get the Poll set up 🙂 LOL.
RE
Yet another new feature on DD, our Newz Page!
On the Newz Page you can find stuff like the Member Quote of the Week and Liks to currently active discussion topics inside the Diner. I’ll also probably add some Blogosphere links in there as well.
Direct URL of the New DD Newz Page is
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/news/
RE
Jack post=2009 wrote: Reverse Engineer
The perspective you have given us on gold and oil is valuable.
In all forums there are moments of friction between members and most of the time the issue is resolved and I hope Ash and you will put behind any misunderstands.I don’t think Ash and I are misunderstanding each other. We both understand what is going on here, its a Napalm Contest! He’s promised not to Ban me for expressing my opinion, so as long as that holds true its likely we will cross swords fairly often 🙂
If he does eventually Ban me, no issues there, you can always find me drinking Sam Adams at the Conspiracy Table in the Diner 🙂
ashvin post=2008 wrote:
Actually, I have no idea what you are talking about here. How does one go about splitting off the thread? If that’s possible, then I’d love to know how it works.
Well, I can’t be entirely sure of the database engine underpinning this forum, but it looks a lot like SMF and similar Forum software. Somewhere in the Admin Tools there should be a provision for Splitting Threads. Basically it enables the Admin to take tangential or off thread comments and drop them into a new thread which you designate with a new Title.
If you are working with custom software that does not have such a tool, talk to your techno geek about provisioning for it. It is a very valuable tool in terms of both keeping topics on thread and also provisioning for the commentariat to take a thread into other directions.
Far as the rest goes here, its up to the readers to decide with respect to your prose and attitude, I just expressed my opinion on these things. There is no official “Poll” going here, I’m just giving you my opinion based on commentary I have read so far in a few threads.
As far as Abiotic Oil goes, I’ll make arguments on that one after you justify your belief in AGW. I put up my arguments on why AGW is unlikely and Climate Change is more likely the result of Geological forces far greater than that accessible through the thermodynamics of Oil combustion. Shoot it down if you want to take me on with respect to this question, but I think it is the better case than Anthropogenic causes for Climate Change.
RE
Golden Oxen post=1989 wrote: Japan sell gold for what? Paper they have been printing since their great bust? The paper fiat is the problem, selling gold is not the solution, utilizing it is.
Utilizing it? For what, making Jewelry? Coining it up and passing it out to the population so they can use it to trade for something they actually need, like Oil? What do the Japanese do when they hand over all the gold in their Treasury to the Saudis to get enough Oil to keep their Toyotas moving? The Saudis will have a nice pile of Gold, but in a few weeks the Nips will have burned up all the Oil they bought.
Gold is just one of many asset classes here, all functioning inside a trading system which values one thing against another, generally denominated in Dollars. The money to value all of it is borrowed into existence, so when asset values begin to collapse everybody who borrowed the money faces margin calls. They have to sell assets to meet those margin calls. They also have to find buyers for the assets they want to sell that have some kind of money they can use to pay off their creditors. Even if Gold is the only asset class anybody will still value, for it to be useful they still have to find somebody who has something else to trade for it.
Gold is just a sideshow in this really, its the OIL that is important, and that is just getting to expensive in real terms for anybody to waste anymore. Even denominated in Gold Eagles, you would quickly run out of Gold trying to buy Oil with it. The Saudis might not even want more Gold in their basement safe after a while. The Chinese might snap up any Gold on the market with their bankroll of USTs, but why would anyone take the USTs for Gold anyhow?
Anyhow, the Banksters are trying to keep the show rolling here by issuing more credit to the TBTF, but the system is locking up regardless because Oil has become too valuable to waste anymore. Substituting Gold doesn’t resolve that problem at all. In this economy, it hasn’t any great utility, so its absolute value is questionable until another economy is developed, one which does not require Oil to function.
ashvin post=1973 wrote:
Basically, your argument is that no ideas about anything should ever be ridiculed, because it is unfair to do so and, who knows, those ideas may turn out to be true, seeing as how they are remotely connected to things that are true. Unless, of course, the idea is one which is highly critical of conspiratorial meta-narratives. Then, ridicule away!
Does that about sum it up?
Not exactly my arguent, no.
My argument is that if you ridicule, insult and otherwise disrespect the ideas of others, then your ideas also will be ridiculed, insulted and disrespected. It just depends on type of board you wish to run here. Have you ever visited the commentariat over at TBP? Jim Quinn insults anyone who doesn’t agree with his spin all the time. Turns the commentary into a sewer.
While YOU may think your intellectualized, scientific approach is the Cat’s Pajamas, clearly not everybody here does, since you have been Napalmed in at least 3 threads I have followed so far since joining the fray here on TAE. I’m not even sure the majority approve of it, since many seem to be pining for the days when Stoneleigh and Ilargi ran the show. You are making yourself a target by being so dismissive of some ideas, “meta-narratives’, conspiracy theories or whatever label you care to attach to them. You are wielding some very heavy academic prose as a club which intimidates a lot of people, and besides the fact this doesn’t necessarily communicate ideas all that effectively, all the ideas contained therein aren’t necessarily valid either. What it does do is squash out discussion amongst others who aren’t quite so academically inclined, and it certainly makes people who hold some of the meta-narratives to be true or at least a good possibility to feel very unwelcome here.
My suggestion would be to be a little more tolerant of the ideas of others, even if you think they are wacko. You also would do well to adjust the academic stylization in your prose and make it a little more accessible. However, if you choose not to do those things, then you’ll have me to deal with, and drunk or sober I hit my targets with the written word 😉 To paraphrase Tom Joad, “Wherever there’s a Moderator on the Internet beatin’ up a Conspiracy Theorist, I’ll be there.”
On the other topic of AGW, all I can say is nice dodge out from Trit’s request that you back up your POV because you don’t want to clutter up this thread with still more tangential arguments 😉 You are the MOD here my friend, and I know how this software works. You could split the thread off and AGW discussion could be pursued there. Far as a better choice being abiotic Oil as an example of a Wacko Theory, again though I do not consider that likely I can make a good argument for that one also.
To wrap it up here, you are the Big Cheese here, and it’s the choices you make which will determine how the commentary here goes. If you disrespect others, you will be disrespected in return. In my great book of cliches, this is stated as “What goes around, comes around.”
TheTrivium4TW post=1963 wrote: Can you provide me with the data that you reviewed to conclude that humans have a significant direct impact on the temperature of the planet. In addition, please provide the logic you applied to the underlying data.
I understand this is a bit of a task, so if you simply start with complete temperature records you used to reach your conclusion, that would be great.
Once you produce the actual data set you have used to reach your conclusion, then we can evaluate it relative to CO2 and other potential factors, as well as verify that data gathering methods didn’t change and impact the results in a significant way.
TIA…
I don’t know what Data Ash uses to establish that Climate Change is anthropogenic, but I have collected a significant amount of data that shows otherwise. It is much more likely to be related to increasing energy dissipation through plate tectonics and vulcanism.
You can view all the Graphs and Charts in my Geotectonic Ocean Heat Transfer Theory article in the Diner.
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/04/02/geotectonic-ocean-heat-transfer-theory/
The key charts come from dlindquist, a Geologist for the USGS. The most impressive is the Hockey Stick on total strength of quakes going off the charts here
Heat Content in the Oceans has increased in lock step with this increasing energy dissipation from the Earth’s Core. The two effects are most certainly related to each other, and the energies are far greater than what you get from all the combustible materials that have been burned, even accounting for some atmospheric heating from Greenhouse Gasses.
RE
I was extrapolating 🙂 You didn’t use the word “Hogwash” with respect to my speculation that the machinations of the International Banking Cartel traverse history back through the Holy Roman Catholic Church, but you did pitch out a pretty snarky reply to that idea.
Is all speculation created equal? Of course not, but I’m still not sure why speculation that we are being controlled by Reptilian Aliens merits the term “Hogwash” either. It’s certainly possible, there are plenty of planets out there upon which Reptilian life forms could have evolved. Its also possible that Satan is running the BIS directly, I’ve had a few people propose that idea to me over the years. I suspect you would consider that idea to be Hogwash as well.
As for me, in the absence of incontrovertible factual evidence to the contrary or a logical fallacy, I don’t discount Satan or Reptiles as possibilities here. I don’t generally argue for these ideas as they are not my bailiwick, but I’ll stand up for the people who do when confronted by people who will ridicule them. I’m picking a fight with you Ash because you generally stand on the other side of the Conspiracy Theory line from me and the rest of the fringe crowd out there. I’m just the Fast Gun in the bunch who gets called in when a Gunfighter is needed.
RE
ashvin post=1951 wrote:
Yes RE, despite all the shortcomings of the Enlightenment era, I do find a lot of value in the scientific method. For some reason, you find my refusal to accept speculative meta-narratives about how the world (or Universe?) works through conspiracy, without a shred of credible supporting evidence, to be “hubris”. Obviously my current worldview informs my perspective, by I am not dismissing anything simply because it does not fit in. I am dismissing it because, by and large, it is speculative hogwash with no basis in reality.Just because an idea is speculative does not make it hogwash. This is what I mean by revealing subtle prejudice in what you write. The “scientific method” is valid for some investigations, but not all. For instance, you won’t get very far in determining the Existence of God through the scientific method. You have to speculate and work entirely with your mind’s eye to understand the question at all.
As to whether your mind is closed or open, you would go a lot further in convincing me you had an open mind if you didn’t use descriptors like “hogwash” when you discuss what *I* do, which is engage in a lot of speculation. Its not “Hogwash”, and while I cannot prove some things by the scientific method, I am quite sure I have got it figured out right. You are free to demur of course and not agree with me, but don’t call it “hogwash”. I do have a temper and a short fuse, and I’m not as low key as Ben when I lose it. When I throw napalm, I light up a board like Vietnam on a Summer’s Day in 1969. I didn’t get banned from so many boards because I always am perfectly polite in an argument 😉
RE
TheTrivium4TW post=1947 wrote:
Hi RE, If I understood Ash correctly, he says he thinks it is reasonable to conclude that there is a financial oligarch conspiracy to screw everyone else up via Debt Dollar Discipline / Tyranny.
I think he said that he wasn’t convinced that there was some kind of direct lineage thousands of years running, which is a fair proposition unless there is some pretty strong evidence.
I have no opinion because I haven’t heard the evidence yet.
Well, let’s look at Ash’s last reply to me here to try to get some kind of handle on this one:
Ashvin wrote: What I criticize is the view that all or a very significant portion of human history has developed through a continuous series of inter-connected conspiracies, one informing the next, that have brought us exactly to where we are today. Big difference.
So, yeah, people like David Icke are subject to ridicule in my book. Not because he has the temerity to identify conspiracies thousands of years ago, but because he believes the original alien conspiracy has been the driving force behind every major development in humanity between then and present day. Of course, the original conspiracy itself is based in nothing but pure fantasy and speculation, which is not true of more recent conspiracies for obvious reasons.
So, in P1, Ash cops to being critical of the idea that there is connection between modern conspiracies and those going back into the dawn of time. Problem here being that he seems to be critical of the idea for no other reason than he doesn’t think they are connected. Because so much of this goes so far back in time the evidence you can find is very murky, you’ll never be able to make a “scientific” case for it. However, its also impossible to dismiss it a priori, and that is what Ashvin does once the questions get outside a window of time he is willing to accept evidence from. This appears to go back to about the time Da Fed was founded far as I can tell so far.
In P2, Ash cops to ridiculing David Icke, and then goes on to declare his ideas to be “pure fantasy and speculation”. He is correct that it’s certainly a lot of speculation, but its not ‘pure’ fantasy since Icke does have his own reasons and evidence he thinks backs up his claims. You can not accept those things as valid, but you can’t say he is engaging in pure fantasy.
If I am presented with ideas that seem far-fetched, I want to hear more about the rationale behind such ideas. Then I evaluate the plausibility of what is being proposed. For me to say anything is not worth considering because it doesn’t fit into the world construct I currently hold as true is hubris of the first order. I could be wrong on some things, this IS possible (though highly unlikely. lol) So I just listen until I find something that invalidates an argument before I will be dismissive of it.
In trying to moderate a discussion where people have views which are wildly disparate from your own, you have to be very careful not to let your own prejudices rule the debate. The ongoing collapse here has evolved many people with very different ideas and different theories on why it is occurring in the way it is. This may simply be a result of some modern structures failing, or it may be related to much deeper and longer term structures. The point of the debates is to ferret out the truth of what is more likely here. You cannot do that if you restrict the arguments to just what is occurring here in the modern era.
sumac.carol post=1937 wrote: Ben and Reverse Engineer,
Can you make your criticisms and points without being demeaning towards Ash? I appreciate a good debate but things are getting ugly.
I don’t see how what I have written so far that is critical of Ash for his attitude towards conspiracy theories can be considered demeaning.
Trust me, if I wanted to be demeaning, it would hit you over the head like a sledgehammer. I just pointed out that when it comes to conspiracy theory, Ash will not take it seriously/will ridicule it. He admits himself to ridiculing David Icke’s stuff. I personally just don’t think that is being very open minded.
RE
In addition to the Video Widget on the Blog Homepage, we have now added a Feature Videos page as well which will regularly feature News, Music and assorted pop culture stuff I like to dig up 🙂
Real good video up now on the Egyptian Gas Lines and Fuel Shortages which is a Must See if you haven’t seen it yet.
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/feature-videos/
RE
ashvin post=1929 wrote:
RE,I think you meant “somewhere before 911 but after Aliens”. Doesn’t matter either way, though, because I don’t have a “cut-off point”. If I ever do get one, make sure to berate me until I don’t have one anymore.
No, meant as written. You seem to be on board with the idea that the Official 911 story probably is not valid, so one can argue beyond this point, but you have to stop before claiming it was the work of Reptilian Aliens, elsewise you will likely ridicule the person making that argument. Your cutoff point comes somewhere in the gap there, I just can’t pin down precisely where it is that you start to ridicule the argument. However, it does probably come before assertions I made that the International Banking conspiracy goes back past the Medici Era into the Holy Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages. I do recall you not being on board with that assertion. LOL.
RE
Ben wrote: what’s the cut-off point again, and why, beyond which we needn’t go in order to fully understand your broader and more nuanced reality?
From my reading, Ashvin’s cut-off point comes somewhere after 911 but before Aliens. I can’t get more specific than that though. LOL.
RE
@ PF & GO
The number of reasons such a scheme won’t work are vast and I’m not going to go into all my arguments deconstructing it here. If you are interested, you can read my Theory of Everything Parts I&II for a start.
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/03/20/theory-of-everything-part-i/
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/03/22/theory-of-everything-part-ii/
RE
