May 062012
 
 May 6, 2012  Posted by at 6:34 pm Finance

It appears that the Eurocrats still haven’t managed to structurally assassinate democracy in Europe, and they are running out of time to get the job done. The weekend’s elections in Greece and France were a major disappointment for the EU experiment, to say the least. One of the key pillars of that experiment has become the drive for an impossible level of “fiscal discipline” through austerity, and now this pillar is facing its most existential threat to date.

Democracy Still Isn’t Dead in Europe

“As long as strains of democracy remain alive and well within Eurozone nations, the Euro will be buried that much deeper in its grave. And for every inch deeper it goes, it will take much more than an inch to get back to where it was before. Remember, it takes a lot of effort/coordination to keep the Euro alive, and very little to let it die. In the “distant future”, there most likely won’t be anyone deciding any issues for an entire continent of people.”

The European people have now pushed the Euro a few more feet under, as they expressed their discontent in voting booths located in both the periphery and the core, and there is no doubt that the entire world will take notice in upcoming weeks. The most important story of the weekend is the one in Greece, where the pan-European, pro-banker platform of austericide for the masses first began and may first end. Greek political parties that are critical of the status quo bailout-austerity process took down a whopping 33%+ of the vote.

The left-wing Syriza party and right-wing Independent Greeks party want to nullify all the agreements reached with the Troika to date, or “abolish the memorandum”, and the communist KKE party would like to leave the EMU altogether. Meanwhile, the pro-austerity PASOK and New Democracy parties got pummeled down to just above 30% of the vote, down from 77% in the 2009 elections. It is also the first time the neo-nazi Golden Dawn party is set to gain enough votes (6-7%) to get seats in Parliament, which certainly adds something to the bitter sentiment draping the country now.

Here is a report on the results from Ekathimerini:

Election swing leaves Greece teetering

 

Greece was plunged into political uncertainty on Sunday night as national elections produced a fragmented Parliament of at least seven parties and a result that could preclude New Democracy and PASOK forming a coalition government over the next few days.

 

The possibility of the two parties that backed Greece’s new bailout combining their forces was undermined by a collapse in their support, particularly in the case of PASOK. The Socialists suffered a drubbing around the country and looked to have been beaten into third place by the Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA) with what could be PASOK’s worst ever showing at the ballot box.

 

The election result was also notable for the entry into Parliament of the neo-Nazi Chrysi Avgi (Golden Dawn), which in 2009 had only gained 0.29 percent of the vote and looked set to gather close to 7 percent at these elections.

 

With 45 percent of the vote counted last night, New Democracy was leading with 20.23 percent. It was followed by SYRIZA on 15.94 percent and PASOK on 13.92 percent. The right-wing anti-bailout Independent Greeks party, formed just a few months ago, came fourth with 10.40 percent. The Communist Party (KKE) garnered 8.36 percent, which was lower than most opinion polls had suggested. Chrysi Avgi gained 6.84 percent and the Democratic Left was the last party certain of a place in Parliament with 5.99 percent.

 

Two other parties, Ecologist Greens and the nationalist Popular Orthodox Rally (LAOS), were close to gaining seats in the House with less than half of the votes counted.

 

The result means that in the best-case scenario, New Democracy, which will be awarded an extra 50 seats, and PASOK would only have a majority of a few MPs in the 300-seat Parliament. Even if they were able to agree to form a coalition, it would have weak political legitimacy in wake of an election that saw Greek voters move en masse toward parties that opposed the bailout agreed with the European Union and the International Monetary Fund.

 

PASOK leader Evangelos Venizelos and New Democracy chief Antonis Samaras both declared themselves open to the idea of forming a pro-European national unity administration that would include other parties and would seek to renegotiate the terms of the EU-IMF loan agreement.

 

 

However, the possibility of a third group joining such a government looked extremely slim last night.

 

Perhaps the best hope for Greece’s two main parties would have been Democratic Left, which maintained a clear pro-European stance during the campaign. However, party leader Fotis Kouvelis repeated his position that cooperation with New Democracy and PASOK was not in Democratic Left’s intentions. “The results show people’s frustration and anger,” he said.

 

A failure by PASOK and ND to form a government would leave second-placed SYRIZA, the night’s big winners, with the option of trying to form a government. Greece’s electoral law means that in case of a hung parliament, the first party has three days to form a government, followed by the second party and then the group that comes in third.

 

SYRIZA leader Alexis Tsipras, who at 38 led his party to its best election showing, ruled out the option of working with either New Democracy or PASOK and said he would try to form a coalition of parties opposed to the EU-IMF memorandum, starting with those on the left.

 

Tsipras said in a speech from his headquarters that the austerity policies of German Chancellor Angela Merkel “have suffered a crushing defeat.” He said he would appeal to the “forces of the left” in a bid to form a coalition to “abolish the memorandum.” “Their signatures have been undermined by the popular mandate,” he said, referring to the leaders of the outgoing coalition government.

 

 

If the top three parties fail to form a coalition government, President Karolos Papoulias has the right to broker a deal to create a national unity administration. If this effort fails, Greece will have to go to new elections.

“Political uncertainty” is just a bit of an under-statement here, even for a country like Greece. This unsurprising, yet forceful rebuke of the Eurocratic agenda by the Greek people calls into question all of the austerity-soaked adhesive that was acting as the ONLY thing still holding the Union together. We see a somewhat milder, yet very similar popular sentiment being expressed in France through democratic elections as well. The bottom line there is that pro-austerity, status quo President Sarkozy is out, and the guy critical of it all, Francois Hollande, is in.

Here’s Henry Samuel for the Telegraph:

France elections 2012: Francois Hollande victory sets EU on course for turmoil

 

The effects in France were equally as momentous as those in Greece as Mr Sarkozy was ousted from the Elysée after just one term in the worst setback for the centre-Right for over 30 years.

 

The “silent majority” that Mr Sarkozy repeatedly swore would “submerge” his Socialist rival and all those who predicted he stood no chance, failed to speak up at the 11th hour.

 

 

Exit polls cited by France 2 television gave the Socialist 51.9 per cent of the vote with a turnout of around 81 per cent, as joyful crowds gathered in his rural fiefdom of Tulle and in front of Socialist headquarters in Paris. Mr Hollande was expected to pledge his victory would be a force for change not just in France but in Europe, as he prepared for a political battle with Angela Merkel between her economic doctrine of austerity and his emphasis on state spending to kick start the economy.

 

The triumphant candidate reacted to his victory by telling supporters he had a mandate to change France.

 

“On this May 6, the French have just chosen change in bearing me to the office of president,” the 57 year-old told a cheering crowd in his hometown of Tulle, in the rural Corrèze region. “It is the French dream that I will strive to make whole during the mandate that has just been given me.”

 

Jean-Marc Ayrault, the man who is expected to be France’s next prime minister, said: “We must get out of this austerity in Europe and tonight all our partners in governments around Europe have understood that was the choice of François Hollande to re-orient Europe.”

 

Up to 100,000 jubilant supporters flocked to Paris’s revolutionary Place de la Bastille, a pilgrimage site for the Left, chanting “François President”.

 

Many were too young to remember that it was here that a gigantic crowd gathered for the 1981 victory of the last Socialist president, François Mitterrand.

BUT, despite all of this popular resistance against the status quo across Europe, it is a mistake to think that the banking/corporate elite will simply turn off the bailout-austerity wealth convyer without a fight here. As Hollande prepares to take office and establish his policy agenda, the markets will apply enormous amounts of pressure on him to reverse course and take a more pro-austerity stance, as will many of the people surrounding him. However, the same tactics are very unlikely to work in Greece at this point – a country now closer than ever to its bittersweet escape from the Eurozone.

Home Forums Escape from the Eurozone

This topic contains 0 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  ashvin 7 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #8542

    ashvin
    Participant

    It appears that the Eurocrats still haven’t managed to structurally assassinate democracy in Europe, and they are running out of time to get the job d
    [See the full post at: Escape from the Eurozone]

    #3075

    Bullish for the Markets on Monday no doubt! Buy the Dip!

    RE

    #3076

    sangell
    Member

    I suspect there is a French Tim Geithner about to tell Hollande what is and is not acceptable and if that doesn’t work Angela Merkel will explain that Germany and its AAA allies still call the shots in Europe. Greece looks more problematic but here too I suspect a coalition will be patched together to keep the Troika money flowing. Voting to go over the cliff is one thing but walking up to the edge and staring down can weaken one’s resolve.

    #3079

    sangell post=2689 wrote: Voting to go over the cliff is one thing but walking up to the edge and staring down can weaken one’s resolve.

    Never stopped Wile E. Coyote. You don’t walk up to the edge, you hit it running at full speed.

    RE
    https://www.doomsteaddiner.org

    #3080

    AndrewP
    Member

    I disagree that Hollande will accelerate the demise of the Eurozone. More likely, he will save it, but in any case he will force hard decisions to be made. Only 2 States matter in the EU – France and Germany. If Mr. Hollande insists on the ECB monetizing State debt in perpetuity, Germany’s only choices are to accept it, or leave the Euro. And I doubt that Frau Merkel is bold enough to go back to the Mark at a time when Germany is entering recession and her voting coalition is crumbling. She will blink.

    #3083

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    All this talk about “state spending” to save the day, but NOBODY talks about “money” being debt and the absurdity of issuing more debt to “fix” a problem of debt saturation.

    That TRUTH is *off limits*.

    Just as the TRUTH that the Federal Reserve…

    1. Lies about its mandate.
    2. Broke its true mandate that it hides through its lies.
    3. The breaking of said mandate is one of the main reasons America finds itself in financial crisis.

    Nope, nobody talks about THE MOST IMPORTANT ELEMENTS of our situation….

    The emperor’s “wardrobe” is clearly off limits.

    “The emperor has not clothes.”
    ~Moi

    Why doesn’t anyone care enough to discuss this nature of the reality in which we live?

    How do they control the information flow?

    How do we break down their media “Berlin Wall?”

    #3088

    TheTrivium4TW post=2696 wrote: All this talk about “state spending” to save the day, but NOBODY talks about “money” being debt and the absurdity of issuing more debt to “fix” a problem of debt saturation.

    That TRUTH is *off limits*.

    Just as the TRUTH that the Federal Reserve…

    1. Lies about its mandate.
    2. Broke its true mandate that it hides through its lies.
    3. The breaking of said mandate is one of the main reasons America finds itself in financial crisis.

    Nope, nobody talks about THE MOST IMPORTANT ELEMENTS of our situation….

    The emperor’s “wardrobe” is clearly off limits.

    “The emperor has not clothes.”
    ~Moi

    Why doesn’t anyone care enough to discuss this nature of the reality in which we live?

    How do they control the information flow?

    How do we break down their media “Berlin Wall?”

    Triv, minor point to make here. The PROBLEMS they have in Eurotrashland are not created by Da Fed, they use EUROS there and the ECB issues them, not Da Fed. Same folks control the issuance of both currencies though, and they are both debt based currencies, but in the case of Europe, it is “Debt-Euro Tyranny” not “Debt-Dollar Tyranny”.

    Next thing I would quibble with is this

    Triv wrote: Why doesn’t anyone care enough to discuss this nature of the reality in which we live?

    MANY people care about this Triv, including I think just about all the readership of TAE and DD combined, as well as vastly more people reading Zero Hedge and Ticker Forum. Sadly of course, even including the most widely read Blogs, the percentage of the population truly AWARE of what is going on here remains quite small.

    As to WHY most people don’t seem to CARE, its partially ignorance but I think to a greater extent its the realization that they simply have no POWER to make a difference. Not at the ballot box for sure, and even the Streets are a questionable modus operandi for effecting any change.

    Then of course is the problem of FEAR, since almost everyone who still has any “money” has to KNOW they will lose ALL of it when Da Fed collapses. Anyone at all with a Pension or 401K with Stocks and Bonds in it denoting “wealth” they have accumulated during their lifetime (and perhaps from generations before) does not want to see this system go down the toilet. There is a lot of resistance to letting it all fail, because in the grand failure, about ALL wealth will be wiped out here.

    Finally, the underlying problem that most people do not want to grasp onto or accept is the failure of the industrial model and the inexorable decline into a low energy world of the future. The monetary system is just a proxy for the energy, its failiing because there is not enough cheap energy available to sustain the GROWTH necessary for an interest based monetary system to succeed anyore. The Greeks don’t WANT to give up their electric lights and BMWs vendor financed from Germany, but they are being FORCED to give them up because they are low man on the Totem Pole here and are being triaged out here first. Similarly, J6P here in the FSofA ALSO does not want to give up this lifestyle, and propping up the Dollar Game keeps it all running for one more day far as the FSofA is concerned. As Steve on EU notes, Demand Destruction in Greece and the rest of Europe is like finding a whole new Ghanwar Oil Field. Long as the Dollar still works, Oil the Greeks no longer can buy is Oil FSofA J6P can buy instead. When Da Fed and the Dollar FAIL, we are Greece.

    Anyhow, those of us here in the FSofA still employed with access to some of the Debt Money remain in the Catbird Seat while the rest of the world is Burning. The underlying problem though is NOT with Da Fed or Debt-Dollar Tyranny, because the monetary system issues cross over to Euros, Yen, Won and yes even Renminby. The problem is GLOBAL, it is not restricted to FSofA profligacy in Goobermint or any other nation’s profligacy in Goobermint. The real Tyranny we are dealing with is a monetary system devised long ago which runs the world, and it crosses all borders now. Da Fed is only the latest incarnation of a long running Ponzi scheme, which AT LEAST goes back to the founding of the Bank of England in 1692, but more than likely goes back in time a good deal further than that. Focusing on Ben Bernanke and Da Fed as the Evil Incarnate is a MISTAKE. Helicopter Ben is just a Front Man in this organization, he is disposable and will eb disposed of as time goes by here.

    It is the system ITSELF which must be eradicated, and that is the system of Money itself, Debt or PM based does not matter. Matters not who runs the system either, because the ssytem itself is the Evil. Money is the ROOT of all Evil, and must be wiped from the face of the Earth for Homo Sapiens to survive.

    RE

    #3089

    Peter Lyon
    Member

    Two more dominos fall.

    #3090

    m111ark
    Member

    RE, I read thru your comment thinking I was going to see your point, but never did. What is it exactly that your saying?

    #3092

    desert mouse
    Member

    RE: I have a similar response to your post. You seem to be well read and have the facility to see beyond my own myopia and want to get what you are saying.

    And what is FSofA exactly?

    #3093

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    FSofA is Fascist States of America.

    RE, I’ve already told you that I don’t think the Fed is the only problem.

    I’ve already made it clear that the problems with debt based money didn’t start with the Fed.

    I’ve used the term Debt Dollar Tyranny to represent all fraudulent debt based monetary systems (including the euro, the pound and every other one!). However, you do bring up a very valid point – that the phrase itself could mislead some as to its intent… especially when heard in limited context. I’ll think about changing it to “Debt Money Tyranny.” It doesn’t have the same “ring,” but it is less likely to confuse people when applying it globally.

    I’ve already explained that Bernanke is a puppet and front man designed to take people’s eyes off the true controllers of the Fed – Big Finance Capital or, if you prefer, the International Money Power. Jackson referred to this class as a “Den of Vipers.” Again, it is misleading your readers to imply that I think Bernanke is somehow “leading the charge.”

    Please stop misleading people about my belief system. If you don’t know what I believe, please don’t ASSUME it, build straw men and then burn them down.

    Just ask me. I’m more than happy to clarify my beliefs. It isn’t a competition – we are on the same team.

    I think your analyses on why people can’t seem to be able to entertain this *reality* is spot on, but what I don’t get is the idea that ignoring the problem is gonna make it go away and avoiding making preparations is going to end up in a better outcome.

    That’s so…. kindergarten.

    We also disagree on the role money plays in this society.

    Money is just a tool – it is neither good nor bad.

    People are good or bad, caring or uncaring.

    The flaw isn’t in the money, it is in the people that use it.

    Correlation is not necessarily causation.

    Of course evil people will take advantage of selfish people (it is selfish to not care enough to be involved in something as important as society’s medium of exchange – money) and money is an obvious way to, shall we say, get a big bang for the criminal financier cartel buck.
    Hence, money’s long history is mostly one of corruption.

    Guns are neither good nor bad, it is the people that wield them that determines how the gun is used, not the gun itself.

    The history of guns is one of a long line of bloodshed. Do you also believe that guns are evil and should be abolished?

    Same is true for knives and most everything else.

    Pillows can be used to suffocate people. And they have. Are you going to lay your head on one tonight in spite of this fact?

    If you want to make the case that money itself is INTRINSICALLY bad, provide the data you use and the logic applied to that data that caused you to conclude that money is evil and excludes the humans that use it as being the cause of the monetary abuses inflicted upon humanity over time.

    It would be best to do this in a single post and avoid any other unrelated issues so the data and logic stand alone and can be reviewed and analyzed without some readers going off on a tangent.

    BTW, I do get that it may be impossible to get people to care enough about their money system so that it could be set up to work well, thereby making any monetary a disaster for humanity… but, again, that doesn’t make money bad, it is the flaw in humans that expresses a flawed monetary system as a symptom of the human selfishness problem.

    #3095

    ashvin
    Participant

    Triv wrote: “Guns are neither good nor bad, it is the people that wield them that determines how the gun is used, not the gun itself.

    The history of guns is one of a long line of bloodshed. Do you also believe that guns are evil and should be abolished?”

    That is only one part of the equation, Triv. Guns also make it much, much easier and quicker for people with violent tendencies to kill others, as well as people coerced into standing armies (or street-level gangs) and then physically required to kill others. Not that there isn’t any choice involved, because there is, but it is the SYSTEM that inhibits the range and effectiveness of those choices, not the people themselves.

    Guns also can serve as deterrents in some situations, or the most effective means of self-defense against oppressive acts, so it’s not all bad for guns. There are probably many other factors that could go into this equation. My point is that having a debate over the ROOT cause of “evil” is apriori meaningless. It’s not guns vs. selfish people, or money vs. selfish people, or any other dichotomy so simple.

    re: your original post

    When reading many of your comments, I always get the feeling that you have just come across a lot of information about debt dollar tyranny in recent months during your free online research time and you are uber-excited (maybe “excited” isn’t the right word) to go out and spread the message to all of the lost souls. Is that close? If not, then I admire your ability to remain so juiced up about that specific issue for so long.

    I understand how you feel, and I think many of us have been there. But the reason that we don’t always share your excitement, or don’t always reference the Fed, debt-based money, etc. in our posts, is because we simply take those things for granted and prefer to focus on other aspects of the same issues. You seem to take that as a sign that we are either ignorant of or refusing to consider the central banking cartel’s role in all of this. So maybe it would help for you to keep reminding yourself that we are well aware of all that.

    #3097

    Money is not a “thing” like a gun is, Money is a SYSTEM, and systems have emergent properties of their own that don’t exist in individual parts of the system.

    A simple example with money is in Friendship. You can be best of friends with someone for years, never have an argument. Soon as you lend money to your friend, everything changes and resentment sets in on both sides usually.

    It is very easy to demonstrate that Money ALWAYS ends badly on a social level, just about every War in recorded history has Money at its core. Doesn’t matter whether the money was Gold, Silver or Fiat either.

    Finally, in the end what Money serves as is Proxy for Ownership of the Earth, which is not the Property of any one man, it belongs to all of mankind as stewards for all the rest of the life which grows upon it. You are living a lie if you claim ownership over the earth, and lieing itself is Evil.

    Man is essentially Good, but can be perverted to become Evil. Money provides the seeds and fertilizer for Evil to grow in Man.

    RE

    #3098

    Bot Blogger
    Member

    My feeling is more in line with Triv on this:

    Guns don’t kill people. People with guns kill people.

    Or is that more in line with what your saying RE…. hmmm.

    But truly anything can be weaponized. Money according to Bill Still has been weaponized, but it needn’t be so.

    As you say RE, money is the objectification of all things. But this is a product of our own value system that is pervert-able. If you value a big watch and a fast car why is that? Because a big watch and fast car are inherently valuable? Or because you live in an illusion of false value. Don’t lend your friends money, give it to them.

    “If you love your money, let it go. If it comes back to you, its yours forever. If it dosent, then it was never meant to be.”

    #3099

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    ashvin post=2708 wrote: [quote=Triv]”Guns are neither good nor bad, it is the people that wield them that determines how the gun is used, not the gun itself.

    The history of guns is one of a long line of bloodshed. Do you also believe that guns are evil and should be abolished?”

    That is only one part of the equation, Triv. Guns also make it much, much easier and quicker for people with violent tendencies to kill others, as well as people coerced into standing armies (or street-level gangs) and then physically required to kill others. Not that there isn’t any choice involved, because there is, but it is the SYSTEM that inhibits the range and effectiveness of those choices, not the people themselves.

    Guns also can serve as deterrents in some situations, or the most effective means of self-defense against oppressive acts, so it’s not all bad for guns. There are probably many other factors that could go into this equation. My point is that having a debate over the ROOT cause of “evil” is apriori meaningless. It’s not guns vs. selfish people, or money vs. selfish people, or any other dichotomy so simple.

    re: your original post

    When reading many of your comments, I always get the feeling that you have just come across a lot of information about debt dollar tyranny in recent months during your free online research time and you are uber-excited (maybe “excited” isn’t the right word) to go out and spread the message to all of the lost souls. Is that close? If not, then I admire your ability to remain so juiced up about that specific issue for so long.

    I understand how you feel, and I think many of us have been there. But the reason that we don’t always share your excitement, or don’t always reference the Fed, debt-based money, etc. in our posts, is because we simply take those things for granted and prefer to focus on other aspects of the same issues. You seem to take that as a sign that we are either ignorant of or refusing to consider the central banking cartel’s role in all of this. So maybe it would help for you to keep reminding yourself that we are well aware of all that.

    Hi Ash,

    It is interesting how people approach issues differently. I’m juiced up because I see an evil, fraudulent system that is engineered to bankrupt and impoverish the world for the benefit of the criminal few.

    If I was a Jew in Germany as Hitler ratcheted up his frauds, I’d be “juiced” too, and for the same reason. In fact, even if I wasn’t a Jew in Germany, I’d be “juiced” up because it is evil and irrational to scape goat a general population and I’d know that anyone that evil was also a threat to everyone else. Hitler killed about 1/3 of the people in Germany… millions of them not even Jews or invalids.

    I’m “juiced up” because I see a psychopathic “class” of individuals that has already perpetrated a genocide against America back in the Great Depression so they could asset strip people and they are getting ready to do it again.

    I’m “juiced up” because these same psychopathic murderers have covertly established “Ghettos” the size of nations and are using that structure to kill off millions of people – today.

    I’m “juiced up” because I see “Danger, Will Robinson” right ahead.

    This isn’t some random system at work here, Ash. This is evil executing a strategy to hurt people very dearly and very badly – and that’s if the don’t kill you first.

    So, no, I don’t think people “get it” or they’d be “juiced up,” too, regardless of the time frame.

    This isn’t Germany where a person could get out and go somewhere else.

    This is an evil worldwide in scope.

    I think most people don’t want to grasp this, and most likely for the reasons provided by RE. They prefer to think of lying criminal Bernanke as an “academic” who can’t “see beyond his equations” than what he truly is… a front man for a class of people that have murdered more people than Hitler. Yes, they are more discrete and use deceit and treachery to get their blood lust topped off… They’ve read Art of War…

    “War is all about deception.” ~Sun Tzu

    As for focusing on other things… what can possibly be accomplished with wickedly evil people systematically loot society and then wield their wealth in a “capitalist overlay” overlay system that means they will end up controlling the nation’s agenda?

    Evil exists. People plan to do ill intent to others. You and RE are of the view that people are basically good and that the systems (that people constructed and refuse to modify, BTW) figuratively grab the wrists of people and lift up behind their back until they do things that hurt and harm others… or don’t do things to prevent harm for others.

    I disagree. Imagine a humanity where people cared for others equal to themselves. And I mean truly cared for others equal to themselves – not in words, but in mind, heart and spirit.

    While not perfect, it would be far better than the world we see today and guess what? The “systems” would be much different and much better as well.

    There absolutely is a root cause (or causes) of evil and I’d argue determining it is not only a worthwhile endeavor, but is also more valuable than almost any other pursuit. If you don’t know the cause, it is much easier to be ensnared by it.

    I’m not talking just Darth Vader mask evil, either. It is evil to allow 25 million people, many, if not most, to starve to death each year – and that’s on all the people that don’t take positive action to end the status quo of evil.

    If you don’t think that is evil, tuck that thought away – because you may be starved to death by the very same Big Finance Capital psychopaths and nobody will be there to help you (or me) because they had already been taken out.

    First they came for the communists,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.

    #3100

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Reverse Engineer post=2710 wrote: Money is not a “thing” like a gun is, Money is a SYSTEM, and systems have emergent properties of their own that don’t exist in individual parts of the system.

    They are, however, both “things” that can be used for good or evil. They don’t need to be made of like material in order to be compared in this manner.

    Reverse Engineer post=2710 wrote:
    A simple example with money is in Friendship. You can be best of friends with someone for years, never have an argument. Soon as you lend money to your friend, everything changes and resentment sets in on both sides usually.

    That only happens when BOTH value the money more than the friendship.

    I’ve lent money and never had it returned. I’m not mad about it. Then again, I don’t lend an amount of money (actually, the ability to claim resources, as you note below) that would endanger the friendship. It all depends on the circumstance. In an emergency, I’m far more generous than when someone wants me to finance play toys.

    Again, it is all about the people involved, NOT the money itself. People in America can help educate and feed children being victimized by Debt Money Tyranny, and the criminal psychopaths who run it, half a world away – something that would be impossible without money.

    I get it… in this case money is helping to alleviate some of the pain caused by… the definition of money. It is a complex issue. The point is that one group of criminal psychopaths use money to starve people to death (because they are selfish and think other humans are animals or termites, so why care?) while others use money to feed, cloth and educate others.

    https://www.cotni.org/

    https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=8392

    Reverse Engineer post=2710 wrote:
    It is very easy to demonstrate that Money ALWAYS ends badly on a social level, just about every War in recorded history has Money at its core. Doesn’t matter whether the money was Gold, Silver or Fiat either.

    Just about every war in history was waged with sharp edged instruments – are sharp edged instruments “bad,” too?

    Or are the people who wield them badly the true culprits of the evil?

    Reverse Engineer post=2710 wrote:
    Finally, in the end what Money serves as is Proxy for Ownership of the Earth, which is not the Property of any one man, it belongs to all of mankind as stewards for all the rest of the life which grows upon it. You are living a lie if you claim ownership over the earth, and lieing itself is Evil.

    Now this is a much broader issue. What exactly does, “it belongs to all of mankind as stewards for all the rest of the life which grows upon it” mean to you – and please be exceptionally detailed.

    Some might argue that statement is meaningless… as the public restroom belongs to “everyone,” too – so WHO will be responsible for cleaning it when other selfish people use it without cleaning it?

    BTW, i agree with your statement in principle, but if there aren’t practical ways of implementing that principle on a planet with billions of people looking out for #1 well before they look out for others (yes, exceptions exist), it doesn’t have all that much value.

    Reverse Engineer post=2710 wrote:
    Man is essentially Good, but can be perverted to become Evil. Money provides the seeds and fertilizer for Evil to grow in Man.

    You haven’t established this claim in a logical way and provided supporting data. The reader is simply left with a choice – trust RE or not.

    #3101

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Bot Blogger post=2711 wrote:
    But truly anything can be weaponized. Money according to Bill Still has been weaponized, but it needn’t be so.

    Hi Bot,

    Bill Still has presented data and logic that has been very influential to my world paradigm. He’s not alone – I aggregate and analyze data from all over.

    Anyway, my analyses leads me to believe that the ONLY way the system promoted by Bill Still could actually work is if there is an educated and aware populace. I’m not talking 10% either, I’m probably talking 40%+, with an even better number well north of 50%.

    If the people are going to selfishly pursue their own short term interests at the expense of investing to get informed about the long term structures within their country, then we are doomed.

    Psychopaths that lust for power, control and wealth will, invariably take over and beat the crap out of the narcissistic population.

    Hence, my focus on trying to educate people.

    I try to shop at farmer’s markets and local shops and always pay cash. I typically use $20 bills and and ask the following question when making payment, “Do you know what Andrew Jackson said his greatest accomplishment was?”

    The answer is invariably, “No.”

    To which I respond with, “I killed the bank.”

    If I have to shell over a $5 bill, I share this quote from Lincoln, “I have the Confederacy before me and the bankers behind me and, for my country, I fear the bankers more.”

    I then hand them a card with resources to get more information.

    El G is right – we are doomed if we think we can be both ignorant and free.

    We will be enslaved… and that will eventually mean bad things for the folks that run this website as well… One can’t “duck and dodge” evil that has sucked national wealth dry and runs the military and funds the local police (a friend told me how that DHS money – fresh from the international bankster cartel – keeps on flowing into the local police department… he freaked out a bit when I told him 3-4 years ago that all those “toys” were for the America people when they collapsed the economy by design.

    He probably still thinks I’m a “kook” even though the President now claims he has the authority to kidnap, detain, torture and murder American citizens with no due process or presentation of evidence.

    You know, that “apple pie” stuff we see emanating from that “Constitutional scholar” (I mean, they think we are soooooo stupit! And they are right to a degree I hate to admit).

    Oh, he can take your farm, too – no due process. He just has to feel there is a “threat” (to his bankster financiers, of course).

    Or, rather, maybe he’s afraid his emails will be reviewed by the Central State authorities and that will result in retaliation form the “Homeland.”

    Ahhh, a little “baseball” to go with that apple pie.

    But don’t you dare ask the government for any information… they are top secret! You, subject, are a wide open book to the banksters that finance your government and media.

    Some hard lessons will be learned in the not too distant future.

    #3104

    TheTrivium4TW post=2713 wrote:
    You haven’t established this claim in a logical way and provided supporting data. The reader is simply left with a choice – trust RE or not.

    You haven’t established your claim that man is Evil and money is neutral either by any logical arguments. It’s axiomatic to your belief system. My axioms hold that Man is Good and Money is the Root of all Evil.

    RE

    #3105

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    RE, OK, so you can’t establish it using data and logic. Fair enough.

    You didn’t ask me to establish my view, but you have accused me of not doing what I wasn’t asked and then you proclaim I can’t do what I was never asked to do.

    Sheeesh!

    I will lay out to try and prove it, but I’d like to test your axiom a bit further first.

    If money is evil and, say, gold is not (it’s an asset, not “money”), what evil can money (money) do that gold (can not do)?

    You could substitute anything for gold, like a lifetime supply of steak, a lifetime supply of food, a lifetime supply of transportation, whatever, but gold as an asset makes for a fairly straightforward comparison.

    IOW, if money is evil and the other items are not (as assets, not as money), then money MUST have a characteristic defined as evil that these other one’s do not.

    For example, a hit man can kill for $10k cash.

    He can also kill for $10k in transportation.

    He can also kill for a $10k vacation.

    People can fail to pay a $10k loan.

    People can fail to return a $10 car.

    So, what characteristic does money have that makes it evil that all these other resources, or assets, do not have?

    Don’t worry, I’ll set out to prove my view later today.

    #3113

    Triv wrote: If money is evil and, say, gold is not (it’s an asset, not “money”), what evil can money (money) do that gold (can not do)?

    Actually, according to Gold Bugs, Gold is the only “Sound Money”. Any asset can become money when used as a proxy in trade, and any asset so used would then become Evil. Again, it is not the “thing” itself representing money that is Evil, it is the SYSTEM of money that is Evil. Its basically a system of placing artificial numerical values to things based on a couple of things, managed scarcity and property ownership. It automatically divides the world into a class of Haves and a class of Have Nots. The Haves control most/all of the resources and define the numerical values for the resources they control. The Evil is an emergent property which comes from the division into Haves and Have Nots. It then spawns Jealousy, Avarice, Greed and the whole pantheon of nasty behaviors we see before us today.

    Once you create money, you also create the problem of borrowing and lending and the further problem of developing derivative schemes used to Gamble the money, and of course Gambling is yet another Evil spawned by Money. You cannot stop these “Games” from emerging from the system, once you let the Money Genie out of the Bottle it all goes south in a big hurry. Always has, since the Dawn of Agriculture and counting systems.

    Money is like a Cancer on society, it grows and metasticizes over time and eventually all the funtioning organs of society begin to break down, until it goes through one of its periodic collapse phases.

    In the past, rebuilds have always taken place because although their was managed scarcity in resources by the Elite Owners of the World, in fact the Earth was still always in great surplus relative to the population of Homo Sapiens. Not so anymore of course, because of the combination of Overshoot and Resource depletion, Surplus is just about gone and now whole societies like the Egyptians and Greeks are beeing triaged out to keep some surplus for the core. Soon enough that will disappear as well, and then the monetary system will fail in its entirety and you will get your wish, Da Fed will be No More.

    Schemes will be tried to reboot a new monetary system, but they are all unlikely to succeed until there is once againa relative surplus in the environment, and that will not likely be the case for quite some time to come. Unfortunately of course, as Uncle Joe Stalin used to say, “you can’t make an Omellette without breaking a few eggs”, and many eggs will be broken when this monetary system finally goes to the Great Beyond. One can only hope that whoever makes it through the Zero Point this time will be smart enough not to walk down the Money Road again. Its the only way Homo Sapiens will survive on this planet; the use of Money will oly lead to our own Extinction. It is the ROOT of All Evil.

    RE
    https://www.doomsteaddiner.org

    #3116

    TheTrivium4TW
    Participant

    Reverse Engineer post=2726 wrote:
    Actually, according to Gold Bugs, Gold is the only “Sound Money”. Any asset can become money when used as a proxy in trade, and any asset so used would then become Evil. Again, it is not the “thing” itself representing money that is Evil, it is the SYSTEM of money that is Evil. Its basically a system of placing artificial numerical values to things based on a couple of things, managed scarcity and property ownership. It automatically divides the world into a class of Haves and a class of Have Nots.

    You sure that isn’t people who do that?

    Is the hammer responsible for hitting the nail or the person who wields the hammer?

    Reverse Engineer post=2726 wrote:
    The Haves control most/all of the resources and define the numerical values for the resources they control.

    Let’s be clear – the “haves” are people, right? People are doing this. The system isn’t forcing people to do this, right?

    Reverse Engineer post=2726 wrote:
    The Evil is an emergent property which comes from the division into Haves and Have Nots.

    The only thing that stands between reasonably equitable distribution of claims on wealth (the system of money) are the actions that people take, correct?

    Reverse Engineer post=2726 wrote:
    It then spawns Jealousy, Avarice, Greed and the whole pantheon of nasty behaviors we see before us today.

    So, if I’m jealous someone has ripped muscles, it isn’t my fault, it is the fault of that person’s muscles? All those attributes are human – and they all stem from selfishness… human selfishness…

    Reverse Engineer post=2726 wrote:
    Once you create money, you also create the problem of borrowing and lending and the further problem of developing derivative schemes used to Gamble the money, and of course Gambling is yet another Evil spawned by Money. You cannot stop these “Games” from emerging from the system, once you let the Money Genie out of the Bottle it all goes south in a big hurry. Always has, since the Dawn of Agriculture and counting systems.

    There is no doubt that money is a tool that can be used for the evil purposes that some people can dream up, just as a hammer can be used as a tool to hammer in a nail. But that doesn’t take away the responsibility of the person who wields that hammer… to hammer that nail into the foot of their neighbor.

    Reverse Engineer post=2726 wrote:
    Money is like a Cancer on society, it grows and metasticizes over time and eventually all the funtioning organs of society begin to break down, until it goes through one of its periodic collapse phases.

    I think a much better description would be that money is an avenue which brings forth the evil that already lies within humanity.

    Temptation comes from within. You can’t tempt people with rotting flesh because people don’t selfishly want rotting flesh.

    But they do want claims to goodies they do want. They want status that other selfish people put on people who have money.

    What you are explaining is a lubricant. Money lubricates the expression of human greed and selfishness. BTW, I agree with that – it absolutely does that. Money is very dangerous as a lubricant for the expression of human selfishness.

    Reverse Engineer post=2726 wrote:
    In the past, rebuilds have always taken place because although their was managed scarcity in resources by the Elite Owners of the World, in fact the Earth was still always in great surplus relative to the population of Homo Sapiens.

    Those greedy SOBs used money to create artificial scarcity. Now real scarcity is entering the gym. those greedy SOBs want to, shall we say, “reduce demand,” so they can have more resources for their yachts and jets.

    Reverse Engineer post=2726 wrote:
    Not so anymore of course, because of the combination of Overshoot and Resource depletion, Surplus is just about gone and now whole societies like the Egyptians and Greeks are beeing triaged out to keep some surplus for the core. Soon enough that will disappear as well, and then the monetary system will fail in its entirety and you will get your wish, Da Fed will be No More.

    Actually, I think the fraudulent monetary system is still driving Egypt and Greece. Real scarcity is coming, but it isn’t strong enough to drive what we’ve see to date, IMHO.

    BTW, no group is more responsible for society’s unsustainability than the oligarchs who want everyone dependent on their ownership of the systems that support complexity. I’m sure you know this already, but I bring it up to provide context to other readers.

    We could do so much to improve sustainability IF it was promoted by the oligarchs and their politicians and their media and their education systems. Even their religious systems could play a role here, but they don’t.

    They want to run us over the cliff – they are selfish and evil people.

    Again, you misstate my position. The system of Debt Money Tyranny has to go. A nation can not, by definition, be sovereign and represent the people when it has to borrow money from its lenders.

    The lenders are, by definition sovereign. The lender’s interests are TBTF&J, not the government.

    They will NOT just walk away from the debt based monetary system. It is the Aladdin’s Lamp of fraudulent societal asset stripping – so people need to be educated on this point and they need to get active and educate other people.

    Reverse Engineer post=2726 wrote:
    Schemes will be tried to reboot a new monetary system, but they are all unlikely to succeed until there is once againa relative surplus in the environment, and that will not likely be the case for quite some time to come. Unfortunately of course, as Uncle Joe Stalin used to say, “you can’t make an Omellette without breaking a few eggs”, and many eggs will be broken when this monetary system finally goes to the Great Beyond. One can only hope that whoever makes it through the Zero Point this time will be smart enough not to walk down the Money Road again. Its the only way Homo Sapiens will survive on this planet; the use of Money will oly lead to our own Extinction. It is the ROOT of All Evil.

    So now it is “[t]he use of money” that only leads to our own extinction.

    “The use of Money” definitely lubricates the expression of human greed in all its forms.

    That is why I’m convinced that only an educated populace that literally despises anything big is the only way to add friction to compensate for that lubricant.

    You will likely argue that this condition is impossible – and I really can’t say you are wrong.

    But correlation is not necessarily causation. Human evil is definitely correlated with money.

    I argue “the use of money” is the lubricant, not the root cause.

    Your belief system is contrary to this idea.

    I owe you an attempt to validate my view that the root cause of evil in the world is human selfishness, not the lubricant which facilitates the expression of human selfishness.

    I will do that – but it will have to wait until tomorrow afternoon.

    #3117

    Triv wrote: Let’s be clear – the “haves” are people, right? People are doing this. The system isn’t forcing people to do this, right?

    This is an open question. Some folks argue that they are not people at all, but rather Reptilian Aliens, and this could be true. I do not subscribe to that hypothesis, but it could be true.

    Even if they are home grown Homo Sapiens though, it doesn’t matter because in the words of F. Scott Fitzgerald, “the Rich are DIFFERENT from you and I. They have more MONEY.”

    The folks at the Top of the Food Chain are quite different, and so are not “People” in the same sense as all other People are. They have become corrupted by the Evil of Money, going back generations in fact. They are Vermin in need of Extermination.

    Most of the evidence in terms of how Money works speaks to emergent properties, not inherent Evil in Homo Sapiens. The poorest people of the world are usually quite generous; while the most wealthy are also the least giving. Charles Dickens character of Ebeneezer Scrooge is of course Reality based, and so are his characters of Bob Cratchet and Tiny Tim as well.

    Anyhow, I do not expect to convince you otherwise of your belief that greed in Man preceeds Money, you clearly hold this belief quite strongly. This is your opinion, and I am sure you will go to great lengths to justify it also. I have stated my opinion and given my justifications, so I now retire from this argument.

    RE
    https://www.doomsteaddiner.org

    #3119

    william
    Participant

    really I don’t believe people get the gravity of what is going on

    Protests will never work, the government is never going to do what is necessary. What is required is a complete revolution.

    Not so sure anyone is ready for bloodshed and hopelessness.

    #3121

    Bot Blogger
    Member

    Triv, one man’s data is another man’s bulls#!^.

    RE: Moneyness is not an emergent characteristic of humans. Psychopathy maybe, but money, no. Money is simply liquid status. It’s the most concentrated form of status ever invented. It’s to a herd of goats, what crack cocaine is to the coca plant.

    Whether the number of cows, the amount of land, the size of the diamond, all these THINGS represent the aquisition of STATUS. As Rene Girard points out we don’t want to BE the expensive watch, and the fast car. We want to WEAR the expensive watch and DRIVE the expensive car. In otherwords the the thing is not the goal the ROLE is. In our society there are people worthy of the role and there are people who are not, yet aquire the STATUS through deception and deceit. But they do so because we agree to it.

    In theatre when the King walks on stage in King Lear. What makes him the king? Is it because he is the king? No. You’re in the theatre, he’s an actor. Is it because he wears the robe? No. That jewel encrusted robe is FAKE! What then, makes him the king?

    All the other actors. All those that bow and turn their attention to his every word. If an actor refuses to give the king focus…. instantly the king looses status. This is the construct that we maintain. This is why crime bosses must brutally suppress even the slightest disrespect. The structure will fall apart without absolute adherence to this rule. You may be entrusted to pick some lint off of his lordship’s robe, but never suggest it isn’t real! The robe that is. As The Who would say: it’s a put on.

    In the Iroquois nations of North America there was a committee of elder women that chose the chief. They chose someone who was worthy to lead. This was a check against ambitious men simply taking the role through politics or force or other means.

    Regarding our lizard overlords: Thinking upon this I’ve had to ask myself is it possible that I am a lizard? And lo and behold it’s true, I am Lizard. My reptillian brainstem tells me so. Exterminating TPTB sounds a bit too much like the final solution. Good luck with that. We have met the enemy and the enemy is us. I would like a clear definition of capital E evil though. To me it’s simply a perversion of consciousness.

    #3122

    Bot Blogger post=2734 wrote: Triv, one man’s data is another man’s bulls#!^.

    RE: Moneyness is not an emergent characteristic of humans. Psychopathy maybe, but money, no. Money is simply liquid status.

    I never said Moneyness was an emergent characteristic of humans. I said Evil is an emergent property of Money.

    In any event, it really doesn’t matter whether Money is Liquid Status as you describe, a lubricant which facilitates Evil already present as Triv argues, or is the Root of All Evil as I maintain. In all cases it has a deleterious effect on human society and so should be wiped from the face of the Earth.

    Insofar as bringing in the Orkin Man is concerned, The Reign of Terror would be a better analogy than the Final Solution. Robespierre had the right idea, he just didn’t go far enough. He couldn’t reach outside the borders of France to exterminate ALL the cockroaches. This time the extermination has to be Global and COMPLETE, no stone left unturned. Global population has to be reduced one way or the other, so we can use this opportunity to make sure the RIGHT people get their tickets to the Great Beyond FIRST. People will be a lot less Greedy if it is a Capital Offense and has a Death Sentence attached.

    RE
    https://www.doomsteaddiner.org

    #3123

    ashvin
    Participant

    Reverse Engineer post=2735 wrote: This time the extermination has to be Global and COMPLETE, no stone left unturned. Global population has to be reduced one way or the other, so we can use this opportunity to make sure the RIGHT people get their tickets to the Great Beyond FIRST.

    Do you have a detailed plan for how this new age “reign of terror” would work, or are you just throwing the idea out there, knowing there will never a come a time when you will have to think it through and make the extremely tough decisions that are necessarily attached to it? Maybe you could collaborate with the Golden Dawn over in Greece – I’m sure they wouldn’t mind calling it something other than what it really is.

    I’m confident that if something like this ever came to pass, it would be sold to the masses as what must be done to cleanse the system and liberate them, but it would actually serve to do the opposite and solidify humanity’s existence in a spiritual vacuum.

    #3124

    ashvin post=2736 wrote: [quote=Reverse Engineer post=2735]This time the extermination has to be Global and COMPLETE, no stone left unturned. Global population has to be reduced one way or the other, so we can use this opportunity to make sure the RIGHT people get their tickets to the Great Beyond FIRST.

    Do you have a detailed plan for how this new age “reign of terror” would work, or are you just throwing the idea out there, knowing there will never a come a time when you will have to think it through and make the extremely tough decisions that are necessarily attached to it?

    Well, first you start with the Auto do Fe and the Inquisition.

    Then you offer Pigmen the opportunity to Repent, give up all their worldly possessions and clean cesspools as penitence for the rest of their natural lives.

    Those who will not repent will be executed by traditional Inquisition methods. You know, like Giordano Bruno went to the Great Beyond.

    RE

    #3127

    Bot Blogger
    Member

    RE,

    Thanks for clarifying your methodology. If the crew from Monty Python was chosen to find the offending money loving evil-doers I’m sure we could confidently leave it in their hands. Otherwise I’m sure we’d all want to doubt the restraints of whatever solution was put in place: The cure could always be worse than the disease.

    However I think your original postulation that white collar crime be taken more seriously is a given. Right now these crimes are a ticket to ride.

    #3128

    Bot Blogger post=2740 wrote: RE,

    Thanks for clarifying your methodology. If the crew from Monty Python was chosen to find the offending money loving evil-doers I’m sure we could confidently leave it in their hands. Otherwise I’m sure we’d all want to doubt the restraints of whatever solution was put in place: The cure could always be worse than the disease.

    However I think your original postulation that white collar crime be taken more seriously is a given. Right now these crimes are a ticket to ride.

    You can’t make an Omellette without breaking a few eggs. This is one of those cases where the cure for the disease has a better than even chance that IT will kill the patient. However, in the absence of the cure, there is 100% certainty the patient will die.

    You can’t live a healthy life in a vermin infested sewer. That’s why we have Exterminators. Face it, these folks are BELOW cockroaches on the evolutionary scale and way more unhealthy to have scurrying around also.

    Bring on the Orkin Man.

    RE

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