Debt Rattle April 15 2018
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[See the full post at: Debt Rattle April 15 2018]It is quite amazing how Rovellis hypothesis is so similar to the the Ashari/Maturidi tradition in Islamic Theology. The only difference being they stated these things 1000 years ago!
Anyone curious to know about the history of Islamic thought concerning the nature of time might find this paper to be of interest.
https://ctaps.yu.edu.jo/physics/mbaltaie/time-in-islamic-kalam.pdf
koso_man
Thanks so much for that link. The little I’ve read so far is very interesting.
I am aware that ancient Islamic scholars were very advanced in science and mathematics.It is at least somewhat funny that the only people who cheer the Syria attacks are the ‘liberals’, the crazy McCains and the MSM, while Trump’s own base turns against him and wants the US out. I don’t think he can afford to lose his base.
V. Arnold, No problem mate.
The Islamic civilization was not just advanced in the fields you mentioned but also in the fields of philosophy, ethics, law, education etc
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If you ever go to a University graduation and wonder why graduates are dressed like 10th century Muslims, the reason is the whole idea of Public Universities came to Europe from the Islamic World (probably by way of Islamic Spain). The first ever public University was founded by a Muslim woman in the 9th century.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatima_al-Fihri
Which kind of destroys the myth propagated by both Islamic extremists and Islamophobes that Islam discourages the education of women
Re: Rovelli
Without saying so; Rovelli seems to be describing gravity: If things fall, it is due to this slowing down of time. Where time passes uniformly, in interplanetary space, things do not fall. They float.
But, then again, maybe not…koso_man
No, I never believed Islam did not want educated women.
As with Christianity; Islam hs been perverted by zealots and power hungry loons.
I own a Koran which I read far too little.
My own bent is towards Buddhism; which by the way, has also been invaded by extremist zealots.
Best stick to ancient teachings in all belief/philosophic systems.
Us moderns are prone to perversions, treachery, and power. Not to be trusted…Raúl Ilargi Meijer
I’m an American (north) and have no idea what those loons are doing/thinking.
Good luck trying to understand the insanity…Re.: Islamic civilization (Thanks for that paper on time)
We, (the common people), (the non=elite); are just coming out of the dark ages.The web is helping us acquire knowledge that use to be only available to the wealthy and the powerful.
That knowledge does not make us into elites.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam
Even though seeking knowledge in Islam is considered a religious obligation, the study of ‘Ilm al-Kalam is considered by Muslim scholars to fall beyond the category of necessity and is usually the preserve of qualified scholars, eliciting limited interest from the masses or common people@ Chris M
“Being a bully is how empires die.”
If your are being bullied and cannot defend yourself, console yourself because …you have no other choice
https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/32-35.htm
… Vengeance is mine …
V. Arnold,
I appreciate your open-mindedness and it is very heartening to see that there are still people out there that haven’t allowed themselves to by affected by the constant scaremongering from the news stories, demagogues and organisations that are blinded by geopolitical shenanigans that come and go.
Considering your inclination towards Buddhism, I think you might find this book of interest, ‘The Common Ground Between Islam and Buddhism’ written by Reza Shah Kazemi with an introduction by the Dalai Lama.
Here is the PDF of the book – https://www.islambuddhism.com/docs/CommonGround.pdf
God says in the Quran in the Chapter of the Bees “For We assuredly sent amongst every people a messenger, (with the Command), “Serve Allah, and eschew evil”: of the people were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitable (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).”
In the Chapter of the Believers, the verse which is directed specifically to the Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him) says “Verily! We have sent you with the truth, a bearer of glad tidings, and a warner. And there never was a nation but a warner had passed among them”
These verses was and is still used as a proof by the scholars that along with Judaism and Christianity, earlier dispensations, such as Hinduism, Buddism etc might have also been Divinely inspired and therefore historically (although there have been undoubtedly instances of shameful persecution by Muslim rulers of other religious groups ), the majority of the Ulema (scholars) considered that Muslim rulers had a religious obligation to protect these religions and their practitioners as long the Jizya tax was being paid.
Obviously in a modern context the whole concept of religious minorities in the modern Muslim nation state paying the Jizya tax is up for interpretation, but the point is, in a pre-modern context this enabled the Islamic Civilisation to undoubtedly be one of the most tolerant pre-modern Civilisations in recorded history.
Zerosum, I think that the principle behind wanting only qualified people to study certain things is a healthy one. The Web as you call it (a very interesting term), most of the time, only gives us the illusion of knowledge.
For instances, if i needed to have a heart operation and you gave me the option between two surgeons who would undertake such an operation, one who had studied in an authoritative institution and had acquired his education by people who themselves were qualified to ascertain that this person was indeed qualified to open up somebody’s chest, and the other one being somebody who had spent years watching youtube videos, reading books such Surgery for Dummies etc, I know that it would probably take me less than 5 seconds to pick the first person rather than the second.
Likewise when it comes to complicated issues such as Theology, or Islamic Law, the scholars rightfully placed conditions on who was or who wasn’t qualified to study certain things.
Theology entails interpreting sacred texts, sacred texts are comprised of language, language is by its nature metaphorical. Therefore, in order to read, analyse and study and finally, interpret something as momentous as Divine Scripture, the scholars of Islam placed certain conditions, one of which was that a person had to be a master of Grammar for instance. To me this seems sensible, logical and necessary.
Now look what’s happening today in the Muslim world, in a time where knowledge has been ‘democratised’…you have people, usually, frustrated by social, political or economic factors going on the internet or buying books, reading things that they usually don’t understand or more dangerously, misunderstand and all of the sudden, blowing yourself up in a cafe and killing innocent bystanders becomes something that is permissible in the religion. Something that any religious scholar of any note would completely and utterly condemn, not based on placating the West, but based on their religious training.
The idea that you espouse, namely that there should be no preconditions to learning knowledge is exactly what has allowed for these crazy groups to come out of nowhere, claiming that they’re acting based on what they’ve read in the Quran or in the Hadeeth. It’s absolute madness!
As far as ACCESS to knowledge, which i think is far more important, the religion is unique in that anyone who wants to set out on the journey, should be allowed to do so, which is why historically, some of Islams greatest scholars were former slaves or came from extremely disadvantageous backgrounds in terms of poverty and so forth, again, something that is hard to find in any other pre-modern civilisation.
@ koso_man
All the good sayings have been co-opted by the religions.
Communication is hard. It can mistaken and misunderstanding.
For instance: I read a sub-thread in your words, you are of the opinion that the elite should control the non-elite.
Hummmm!VA,
Yes, Rovelli (re-)defines gravity in space time, that seems to me to be the core there. You don’t fall because -in space- there’s gravity, you fall because you’re “naturally inclined towards where time passes more slowly”. That is quite the statement.
Seeing the Islam thoughts on this is new to me, and I should read more, but surely very interesting. And why wouldn’t people have figured the connection between space and time eons ago? It takes time for you to fall down a mountain. Einstein’s biggie is that the speed of light never slows down or accelerates, but even that is true only in a limited realm.
Rovelli realizes that that whole thing collapses on a sub-atomic level.
Years ago, as a singer, I had a band, horns and backup singers and all, that I called The Theory of Everything. Hope someone will stand up to let the theory have a better faith than the band. It’s just that I’m not sure that is possible at all.
As I said, Rovelli moves in Einstein’s field of beauty and simplicity, but there’s no guarantee a grand unified theory can ever be accomplished -by man-.
Maybe for ‘our’ world to continue -birth and death and tragedies and all-, we need for the subatomic world to not be subject to whatever laws govern us.
Time discreteness: Yesterday, today, tomorrow
https://ctaps.yu.edu.jo/physics/MBAltaie/Time-in-Islamic-Kalam.pdf
Discreteness applies not only to material bodies but to space, time, motion, energy (heat) and all other properties of matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_particle
A point has position, location, in time and occupies 3 dimensions in space and has a duration in 3 dimension. It has volume.
Today, energy (heat) is referred to as EMF. It does not have volume. It occupies volume.
Raúl Ilargi Meijer
Thanks for that reply. Hope, at this time, seems all there is “out there”; a thin gossamer thread at that.
This has been a most interesting comment section, very enlightening, to say the least.
@ koso_man
Thanks for the PDF link; it will be used.
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