Europe: A Thousand Miles Behind
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Actually, most institutions notably the Catholic Church, the Mormons, Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggert, et al and numerous other promoters of various interpretations of Biblical MEANING are what led me to the conclusion anybody at all can pitch out their interpretation here. Exactly how LAZY I am in terms of research isn’t all that meaningful really, because I have no idea how much work anybody puts into developing their own interpretation of this stuff. Even if they DO put in a lot of work (and the Catholic Church has been working at this for CENTURIES now and Monks gave their entire LIVES to the task of buttressing their arguments), that does not mean they draw correct conclusions either.
I am sure for every argument you put up there is some Jesuit or some Seventh Day Adventist who could cite another 1000 texts to refute an argument you cut and paste from somebody else. I am supposed to spend the rest of my days walking the earth sifting through this swamp of conflicting interpretations to make my decision on WTF has it RIGHT here?
Please feel free always to knock down any argument I put up with reams of documentation from sources which meet your requirements for adequate research. I’m still looking for an argument in there which refutes the idea that the Babylonian Collapse of the Mesopotamian Era was a Monetary System Collapse. When I either find one on my own or you point me toward such an argument, I’ll read it in its entirety. What you did point me toward was just more of the same kind of bullshit I have read many times before, and I really did not need to go through all the pages to figure that one out.
RE
Reverse Engineer post=3574 wrote: I am sure for every argument you put up there is some Jesuit or some Seventh Day Adventist who could cite another 1000 texts to refute an argument you cut and paste from somebody else. I am supposed to spend the rest of my days walking the earth sifting through this swamp of conflicting interpretations to make my decision on WTF has it RIGHT here?
It won’t necessarily take you that long, but, yeah, if you want to be straightforward and accurate about what you’re telling people, you need to first figure out what’s correct or what’s most likely to be correct. Sometimes it takes 5 minutes to weed out the BS and sometimes it will take much longer. The Papal (Apostolic) tradition of the Catholic Church is pretty easy to debunk as being a meaning contained within the Bible, but other views like the pre-tribulationist Rapture belief might be more difficult. As I stated in the other post, this is my faith:
“As you may have guessed, my version is not the EASY one to follow. It is not even the one I practice in most aspects of my own life, because I find it much too difficult. Yet, it is still what I believe to be true. Faith is not about a care-free attitude or an unquestioning, dogmatic belief in certain laws or truths. It is about time, effort, logic, critical examination, emotional stability, and, ultimately, free will.”
I’m still looking for an argument in there which refutes the idea that the Babylonian Collapse of the Mesopotamian Era was a Monetary System Collapse. When I either find one on my own or you point me toward such an argument, I’ll read it in its entirety. What you did point me toward was just more of the same kind of bullshit I have read many times before, and I really did not need to go through all the pages to figure that one out.
This is simple, RE. You asked me what evidence I have to suggest the passage you quoted was not about the Babylonian civilizational collapse of the past, but rather about a specific future event in Jerusalem. Besides the obvious fact that it is contained in the Book of Revelations… I directed you to a detailed argument on the matter. You largely ignored it and now call it BS. No one said anything about Babylon not suffering from a monetary collapse (of course it did)… but WTF God’s wrath on the unfaithful inhabitants of Jerusalem, as described in Revelations, has to do with your monetary collapse arguments against GO is beyond me. You don’t even believe that specific event will happen, but you still use it as support. That was my issue all along, and it ended up with you saying it doesn’t matter what other texts actually mean, because anyone’s interpretation of them is just as valid as anyone elses’ and can be used accordingly. I said that’s nonsense.
ashvin post=3580 wrote: [quote=Reverse Engineer post=3574]I This is simple, RE. You asked me what evidence I have to suggest the passage you quoted was not about the Babylonian civilizational collapse of the past, but rather about a specific future event in Jerusalem. Besides the obvious fact that it is contained in the Book of Revelations…
I think here is the source of confusion, and this is really my fault for not explaining the issue clearly enough.
Revelation is a prediction of a future event, I don’t dispute that. Whether that future event will occur in Jerusalem or the City of London or on the site of the original Babylon I don’t know.
What I do know is that any good science fiction writer who makes predictions about the future bases it on events that occurred in the past or present. So whoever it was that was writing Revelation in making his predictions about the future would likely base that on things he knew of from the past, which others of his time likely were aware of as well, as stories passed on through oral tradition. Those folks were a lot closer along the timeline to the collapse of the REAL Babylon than we are now, and stories about it likely still circulated, as currently stories still criculate about say Vlad the Impaler. For the reader of Revelation in that time, drawing the analogy of a Future event to one known of in the Past would have driven home the likelihood that similar (but worse) could occur in the future.
Hopefully this clarifies and resolves our dispute on this point.
RE
>>but the articles of, let’s say, Stoneleigh or Ilargi actually mean what the writers intended them to mean, or what the written words suggest they mean.
Just FWIW, I’ve had exactly that problem with Ilargi several times. What I read was not what he meant to write. Sometimes it has been obvious from context, but in others, eg the famous “you may not recognize your home town”, it was most certainly not.
Also, FWIW, I have seen the issue arise between native speakers of English. One of the many reasons I no longer work for the Irish company I fondly refer to as Dysfunctional Ltd. is the number of times I told my boss, “I am bilingual. What the prospect heard is not what you think you said.”
And possibly relevant here, 150 years after “The Late Unpleasantness”, people from Dixie and Mr. Lincoln’s Union can still hear each others statements and feel, “Honorless craven” and “Lying hypocrite”.
Reverse Engineer post=3587 wrote: Hopefully this clarifies and resolves our dispute on this point.
REOK, yeah, that does make it a lot more understandable for me.
Obviously, those of the Christian faith would still take issue, because they do not believe Revelations was written by some random sci-fi author, but a prophet who was literally inspired by the Word of God. If you don’t believe that, then there is more room for you to think that he was simply borrowing stuff from past accounts to come up with random prophecy.
Still… it is odd to rely on Revelations 17 at all for your argument with GO about how PMs will fare in the future. If John was just making shit up about what will happen in the future, that hurts your argument. If you think it is good because it sounds like the account of money collapse in historical Babylon, then why not just use the latter as your support? We all agree (me, you, GO) that the current monetary system will eventually collapse, but it’s unlikely Biblical John would know anything about our present troubles 2000 years ago (unless he was, in fact, inspired by an all-knowing God). So why rely on the passages written by a “good science fiction writer” instead of historical accounts of Babylon? I guess just because they sound cooler!
ashvin post=3597 wrote: [quote=Reverse Engineer post=3587]
Still… it is odd to rely on Revelations 17 at all for your argument with GO about how PMs will fare in the future. If John was just making shit up about what will happen in the future, that hurts your argument. If you think it is good because it sounds like the account of money collapse in historical Babylon, then why not just use the latter as your support? We all agree (me, you, GO) that the current monetary system will eventually collapse, but it’s unlikely Biblical John would know anything about our present troubles 2000 years ago (unless he was, in fact, inspired by an all-knowing God). So why rely on the passages written by a “good science fiction writer” instead of historical accounts of Babylon? I guess just because they sound cooler!Actually, it’s Revelation 18 I used, not 17.
Why use that instead of some other historical text? First off, because I haven’t found so far another text which describes the monetary aspect of this collapse. Lots of stories about the sack of the City, the various and sundry rulers that took over and so forth, but nothing about money.
Second, this is a very concise passage overall describing many of the phenomena we see today. Kings of the Earth and Rich Merchants fornicating basically describes a weekend in the Hamptons.
The Bible is also well regarded and accepted as a Historical source. So if you do make the assumption as I do that most of the stories in there have some basis in historical fact, this particular bit of history is very relevant to us. It has a very specific reference in it to Gold & Silver, which of course is why it applies in any argument with GO.
Then of course also, as a big FAN of my writing 😉 you know how I use metaphors and go way over the top all the time, and good grief you can’t get more OTT stuff to use than comes out of the KJV Bible in Revelation. That is pretty much the best Fire & Brimstone writing ever done, and I hold it in as much esteem as I do the work of Dr. Hunter S. Thompson B)
RE
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