Greenpa
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RE- yeah; thanks. I find those numbers rather more credible than “official” ones. The infinite plasticity of statistics is by way of being a sub-specialty of mine; I’ve been aware of the distortions there for many years. The story I linked to above about the NY cop finding crime statistics being consistently and extensively manipulated just brought my appreciation to a new peak.
Having spent time in China, I got additional appreciation for how people handle information like this. It gets mentioned, slightly, then everybody wants to change the subject. NOBODY wants to face it. The particular instance was a broad floodplain all planted in rice. We were driving across it- it went on and on. It occurred to me to ask my host, related by marriage to one of Mao’s generals- “so is this the region where Mao opened the dikes to cover his retreat?” “Oh, let me ask…” as he referred to the local guide. “Yes, this is the place.” Something like 2 million peasants drowned. A glorious victory followed later, of course.
Right here. Great rice. Let’s talk about something else, shall we? And while the locals remember; I’ll bet you those numbers don’t get included much, in official discussions.
Here, in fact, is an opportunity for the Occupy folks, or their like.
Time for a new “Piece Corps.” We should be sending kids over there, to Greece, Iceland, and Ireland; for starters.
Not to teach. What a silly idea. To learn.
Somehow- the common people are mostly coping. 50% youth unemployment? How do they eat? How do they spend their days? Half the drugs missing? How are they surviving? Manifestly, they mostly are (so far).
We could use their experiences and skills in our own future, bet on that.
I’ll state again here- in the recent months I’ve become more convinced that the power of fantasy and mass hallucination seems to be far, far, greater than we’ve usually believed here. We keep insisting that reality must prevail. But I’m less convinced of that, these days. Yes, the jugglers have 50 plates spinning on those sticks; and yes, there’s no way they can keep it up. Except- they are.
I take the UK as a possibly good explanation. The entire country has no visible means of support; and hasn’t for 100 years. Yet- their standard of living continues to be far higher than average around the world. I’m thinking they’re coasting on the material inputs from centuries of colonial strip mining- moving resources stolen from India, etc, into the UK as fast as they could, for a very long time. Much of it was used to build permanent infrastructure- that still functions, and needs little upkeep.
So; they coast; while the majority in India are still as poor as ever (or poorer).
It all seems insanely stable.
El Gal-“if, OTOH, you consider the situation in 1935 Ohio to have been identical to 1935 Russia under Stalin, then we might just have to disagree.”
How recently have you read (or watched) The Grapes of Wrath?
sigh. I’m just less sure about it, these days.
“Greenpa
The Official Thread for Open Comments was an attempt to reinstitute the old Blogger family approach. But in the end, this herd of cats must vote with its feet. I have been remiss in using it myself for that purpose.”
Yeah, I was guessing, but- it’s still not the same. See; I just replied to another comment of yours elsewhere- thinking it would appear where it could be seen- but- nope, it’s on a different thread, no longer visible in the Comments Compendium…..
Sigh. And my other comment was so brilliant, too.
el gall- “in previous eras when there was some continuity in the rule of law, at least in the USA.”
such a babe in the woods, you are. 🙂 Just in case you missed this one, there’s a story simmering out there (zero visibility at the NYT today- interesting) that has so much coverage I don’t see how it can go away. And lucidly illustrates the deep realities about the “rule of law” in the US. It’s seriously terrifying; I recommend really reading it.
I’m currently working my way through all the Astaire/Rogers movies I can get my hands on. They’re curiously satisfying, in all ways. Mostly set in the 1930’s; very relevant today. And they provide deep insights into reality; what is presented as “humor” is in fact, not; but reality; which is of course why audiences laugh at it.
Cops appear consistently, for humor. One little schtick, can’t remember which movie: Astaire has stolen Rogers’ purse- to retrieve his “lucky quarter”; which he had previously given her. She calls a cop- and tells him this man has stolen her money. Astaire is dressed in elite evening clothes, though it is morning. The cop tells Ginger, rudely, to move on, or he’ll arrest her for harassing a gentleman. Astaire is incensed on Rogers’ behalf, and berates the cop for mistreating a woman. The cop tells Astaire off- “Look, bud; guys like you PAY me to protect you from dames like her. Move on before I forget where my paycheck comes from.”
Approximately. Pure- unadulterated truth; widely understood long, long ago. Ha ha. And here we are- with our functional understanding of laws and their actual benefits having progressed astonishingly little.
How is the myth of the “rule of law” made so durable? Part of our collective societal hallucination, still so robust-
And, I am feeling just very dense at the moment. I found something cool; wanted to pass it on- and I have, literally, just spent 4 minutes trying to figure out WHERE and HOW to put it up here…
Gack. Just give me an open box I can put text in. I finally hit a “reply” button; but have no idea where this will really go….. see? I’m dense. Depressing!
Anyway! Here’s the news! Greek credit default swaps ARE triggered!
https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/03/09/greek-credit-default-swaps-are-activated/
But it still doesn’t mean they’re going to be PAID apparently. The contents of that article are more confusing than the comments format, even….
Scandia – yeah; thanks for laying that out. Me too.
Ash, Ilargi, Stoneleigh- I appreciate (everybody does, I think) the incredible amount of work you’ve undertaken to improve TAE. Geez, what a lot of blood, sweat, and probably tears.
I haven’t chimed in on the new format before, because I’m aware that it takes time to get used to new stuff, and I know that I’m not that eager to change these days… and then because explaining WHY is complicated, and painful, and too much work….. etc.
But for purposes of feedback – crude as it was, I think it was easier to carry on good, complex, multi-person conversations in the old format. It’s just WAY more work in the new one; which does, indeed, prevent me from participating sometimes.
It’s partly a matter of brain and optical physiology- in the old format, you could see more entries simultaneously, and yes, the brain works that way. You could search for people or ideas in the thread very rapidly, and effectively. Tellingly, I have yet to TRY to search for anything in the new format. Maybe it’s easy? Dunno. I haven’t been motivated to find out. The multiple thread format is a big barrier.
I also don’t have much to offer by way of constructive suggestions for improvement; I understand the need to change, and the limitations imposed by new hosts, etc. Just; so you know- I miss the old community; and I find I’m not adjusting well to the new format. 🙂
Sorry.
And; gezelle : “I never posted on the old board because of the close-knit community…I never felt like new voices were welcome” – !! I’m wounded!!
🙂 I do know people who found the group intimidating. But if you hung around long enough, you could have observed plenty of new voices being welcomed. Sure, idiots and phonies get nailed. But plenty of naive sillies got tons of tutoring, too; from people with more patience than I have. I was glad they did, anyway. 🙂 So, welcome, and nyah nyah nyah.
It occurs to me there is probably no incentive to not just lie (if necessary) and say “Of course we have over 90%!”
Who is going to check? Nobody on the planet really wants to get into that fight, I’d bet. Just wash hands, move down, see what happens next. Whatever happens next will be hard enough, without making it harder.
Great fun- Europe has in fact hit a Plier Horizon event; only, in automobiles:
Sounds pretty serious, actually. And speaks directly to the concept of “growth”. Not going to happen.
“They are afraid that, even after the Greek deal is done and losses are absorbed, all of the debt floating around in the Eurozone will still be just as unsustainable as it was before; “
Yup, I’m sure that’s part of it. I’m wondering though if some of those same players are not thinking “this is a mess; but maybe my best bet to save my own ass is to see to it that the credit default swaps are actually triggered; maybe I’ll collect more from JP Golem than I’ll ever get from Greece- before it all goes entirely to hell…”
What’s your guess, Ash- how many are thinking that way? And oh, what a big FAT mess that would make.
Melville- do NOT regret your 3 kids. While the way forward is dark; the alternative is- oblivion. Which I think is even less desirable.
Re: growth/steady state: I came to the same conclusions as Daly 4 decades ago, when I first started to seriously study biology. It’s freaking obvious, really, if you actually put the pieces of the puzzle together and look at the picture. “Economists” really don’t; they insist on looking at only 20 pieces of the 200 piece puzzle.
At the moment the piece I’m most interested in is the VAST momentum and inertia of the current economic fantasies. It’s staggeringly huge; and backed up by a century of fossil fuel inputs. My favorite current measure of this inertia is the manufacture and sales of – pliers.
I have a sneaking suspicion the world already possesses enough pliers to serve all the needs of the present population; and any conceivable future population, to boot. And yet- the world continues to manufacture more pliers. Sure, there are plenty of “improved” versions to plump up the sales; and increasing numbers of special purpose pliers; but even so. We have ENOUGH pliers for the entire solar system; for all time.
But they continue to be manufactured- and SOLD; by the millions. I think when we see plier sales start to wane- that will be the horizon when “growth economics” pushers will finally have to face some reality. But frankly- I see no pause in plier sales this year.
So there you have it. Until we reach the Plier Horizon- the fantasy of endless growth will dominate human thought.
🙂
(I considered using screwdrivers as the measure, incidentally, but they are too variable, greatly increasing possible markets. Phillips? Torx? Stubby/Long? Magnetic/Non? Power/Manual? Just too much- although the reality here is the same; yes; we have ENOUGH; now.)
Happy days are here again.
But, do keep in mind, it’s astonishing how long people will insist that the Emperor’s new clothes are really gorgeous.
MR166 – yep, dams all over. The problem, if I can revert to veterinary metaphor; is that all the “economists” of the world are struggling to help the Cow Of International Commerce give birth. It’s a hard birth; breech, in fact, and a small birth canal. So, gosh, it’s difficult. And they’re positive it’s twins in there, too.
Thing is- they don’t have a cow- what they actually have is a bull- which isn’t going to give birth, no matter what- and the bull has two broken legs. But the “expert financial technicians” only see a cow in labor; so- no; nothing they’re recommending is going to get the animal back on its feet.
That is, in fact, a basic precept in the pursuit of Understanding. If the answers you keep getting don’t work- there’s a huge chance you have not asked the correct question. That’s pretty much where western civilization is right now. Eager to solve all our problems- but in fact we don’t see what the true problems are.
The Christian Science Monitor says it, right out loud:
Reasonably good analysis there. To me- Greece is a country ripe to bursting for a charismatic leader to arise, and take control. Then? Pure crapshoot. Time frame for a new charismatic to reach control, in my mind- a year, or thereabouts.
Greetings folks. Finally managed to fight my way through the new site, and get here. (Partly my growing aversion to all electronic “improvements”, I admit. I will kill the next person who “improves” my software again.)
Anyway. About this Greece stuff. Geez, you guys are so out in left field! Fareed Zarkarooney explains “How The Eurozone Was Saved”, right here: https://tinyurl.com/8a9g6nk
Actually; its worth a read. Spectacular double-think and double-speak; done by a double-obliviot. The entire cheerleading piece can be boiled down, by a 5th grader, to: “The banks were broke; so the Central banks just printed more money for them; and now they’re fine! Aren’t we smart and lucky!”
I kid you not. He’s staring at the massive dilution of the currency, and cheering it on. Hey, the experts say this is good; therefore, it’s good. Nothing easier, and you can sleep.
