Nov 252020
 
 November 25, 2020  Posted by at 6:41 pm Finance Tagged with: , , , , , ,


Willem de Kooning Door to the river 1960

 

 

While I’m trying to read my way into the world of vaccines, not my field at all, I think the logical/philosophical implications should be clear: the model for doing medicine in a global pandemic must of necessity be global cooperation. But we apparently are not capable of that (anymore). Because the pandemic must be mined for profit.

Not so much for the AstraZenaca/Oxford vaccine, which is produced in a not-for-profit capacity, or the Russian Sputnik V vaccine, but certainly for the Pfizer and Moderna ones. We should just refuse those, but we’re -told we are- desperate, and they know it.

So it’s politics and profit that determine the world of vaccines. What a sorrowful state of affairs. And that’s not even the worst of it. Far from it. With vaccines -that we know of- being developed in Cuba (4x), China, Russia (2x), West (multiple), etc., maybe we can have the luxury of choosing the ones that do the least harm?

Well, there’s a trap door hidden somewhere in there. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines use a whole new (revolutionary!) technique to produce vaccines. Some people even refuse to call them vaccines because of this. Vaccines as we -used to- know them were based on taking a harmless strand of a virus/bacteria and using it to urge your immune system to produce antibodies.

mRNA (messengerRNA) is very different. Here, it’s a synthetic, artificial entity designed to be injected into your cells to provoke certain reactions. And in the case of the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines, it’s basically entirely untested.

They intend to ship out billions of doses of their vaccines, which would essentially create billions of human guinea pigs. The risk is not so much short term, the only thing they would have to provide evidence for, it’s long term, for which they do not. What is that risk? We don’t know, it’s never been tested.

The problem seems obvious: once more people begin to understand this, more people will refuse to be inoculated with these “vaccines”. But then “authorities” will demand you take them to fly/move/just go outside? I don’t see it. What I see is human guinea pigs. And why, if there are other non-mRNA vaccines about to come forward? Money will cure the pandemic? The South China Morning Post had this today:

Pfizer-BioNTech Says Final Analysis Shows Vaccine 95% Effective

A major milestone in the race for a vaccine to counter Covid-19 was reached on Wednesday, when the first vaccine developers to complete phase 3 trials announced results in what has been the fastest vaccine development in history.[..]

Getting enough doses out to the world will take time, coordination and infrastructure. Pfizer and BioNTech have said they could produce 1.3 billion doses by the end of 2021. Several hundred million doses are already booked by major economies like the US and EU. Each immunisation requires two doses and there is an additional hurdle – they need to be transported and stored at minus 70 degrees Celsius (minus 94 Fahrenheit). All told, leading vaccine makers have projected that some 16 billion doses could be made next year..

Pfizer and BioNTech announced results after their trial reached a planned end point of 170 infections of Covid-19 among their nearly 44,000 participants. Of the cases, 162 were observed in the placebo group, while there were eight cases among those who had received the vaccine candidate, BNT162b2. The efficacy rate of 95 per cent was consistent across age, gender, race and ethnicity demographics, the companies said. Notably, the observed efficacy for adults over 65 years of age was over 94 per cent, an important marker for a group whose Covid-19 mortality rate far exceeds younger age groups.

But that makes no mention of the development method, or the risks involved. Which could be huge. I mean, it’s fine to say we need a lot of vaccine doses, and fast, but with AstraZeneca promising 2 billion in 2021, and Russia 1 billion, and China 1 billion or so as well, what exactly is the risk/reward ratio here? Why splurge into mRNA vaccines if you don’t have to? Is it just profit driven? When so many people are dying?

 

Here’s a bit from an Automatic Earth comments section yesterday. Commenter “upstateNYer” said:

I’m not yet clear on how “the scientists” made sure this mRNA hijacker will quit forcing my cells to produce stuff once its demands are met. Does anyone here with medical knowledge understand how it’s guaranteed that the mRNA strands don’t get just a bit power hungry and take over more than initially agreed upon?

In reaction to which, commenter Doc Robinson cited a Jerusalem Post article from November 17:

Could mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines Be Dangerous In The Long Term?

[..] the fact remains that if Pfizer succeeds – or Moderna, with whom Israel also has a contract – these will be the first-ever messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines brought to market for human patients. In order to receive Food and Drug Administration approval, the companies will have to prove there are no immediate or short-term negative health effects from taking the vaccines. But when the world begins inoculating itself with these completely new and revolutionary vaccines, it will know virtually nothing about their long-term effects.


When Moderna was just finishing its Phase I trial, The Independent wrote about the vaccine and described it this way: “It uses a sequence of genetic RNA material produced in a lab that, when injected into your body, must invade your cells and hijack your cells’ protein-making machinery called ribosomes to produce the viral components that subsequently train your immune system to fight the virus.”

Doc Robinson on the potential risks:

1. the bio-distribution and persistence of the induced immunogen expression
[spreading throughout the body and lasting longer than intended]

2. possible development of auto-reactive antibodies
[potentially leading to auto-immune conditions]

3. toxic effects of any non-native nucleotides and delivery system components.
[such as from nanoparticles and potential allergens like polyethylene glycol (PEG)]

“There is a race to get the public vaccinated, so we are willing to take more risks… But he acknowledged that there are unique and unknown risks to messenger RNA vaccines, including local and systemic inflammatory responses that could lead to autoimmune conditions.


An article published by the National Center for Biotechnology Information, a division of the National Institutes of Health, said other risks include the bio-distribution and persistence of the induced immunogen expression; possible development of auto-reactive antibodies; and toxic effects of any non-native nucleotides and delivery system components.

And then there was this Reuters article from October 29:

Doc Robinson:

The vaccines being developed by Russia, J&J and CanSino use a human adenovirus platform, which is a proven technology used in Ebola vaccines and cancer treatments. The other frontrunners are “based on new, largely unproven technology platforms designed to produce vaccines at speed.” Other vaccine candidates using more conventional approaches won’t have late-stage trial results until sometime in 2021. I am going to avoid mRNA vaccines like the plague, and wait and see whether the conventional approaches produce anything with a good track record and minimal risk.

Next Crop of COVID-19 Vaccine Developers Take More Traditional Route

Many leading candidates now in final-stage testing are based on new, largely unproven technology platforms designed to produce vaccines at speed. They include messenger RNA (mRNA) technology used by Moderna Inc and Pfizer Inc with partner BioNTech SE, and inactivated cold virus platforms used by Oxford University/AstraZeneca Plc, Johnson & Johnson and CanSino Biologics, whose vaccine has been approved for military use in China.

Merck & Co in September started testing a COVID-19 vaccine based on a weakened measles virus that delivers genes from the new coronavirus into the body to stimulate an immune response to the coronavirus. Of these, only the technology offered by J&J and CanSino that use [human] cold viruses as vectors to deliver coronavirus genetic material have ever produced a licensed vaccine – for Ebola. [The Russian vaccine also uses this technology.]

The next set of candidates – with late-stage trial results expected in the first half of 2021 – are heavily skewed toward approaches that have produced successful vaccines. Conventional methods include using a killed or inactivated version of the pathogen that causes a disease to provoke an immune response, such as those used to make flu, polio and rabies vaccines. Also more common are protein-based vaccines that use purified pieces of the virus to spur an immune response. Vaccines against whooping cough, or pertussis, and shingles employ this approach.

I don’t know about you, but this scares the heebees out of me. If given the choice, I’d much rather not be a guinea pig for some Big Pharma experiment. There have been in our past very succesful vaccines, and I would maybe list penicilline in that list, but certainly Jonas Salk’s 1955 polio vaccine, off which nobody got rich, and it feels just completely crazy to now exploit a pandemic for profit. It’s just wrong.

Maybe COVID19 is not our biggest problem? Maybe our own mindset is? If we can no longer work with Russia and China on global issues, but we instead turn to large corporations to solve them for us for profit, we have already conceded defeat? Our own defeat?!

I don’t like the smell of this. Be careful out there. Don’t volunteer to be a human guinea pig just so you can fly a plane, or walk outside.

 

 

 

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Home Forums Vaccines for Guinea Pigs

This topic contains 17 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Doc Robinson 1 month, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 18 posts - 1 through 18 (of 18 total)
  • Author
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  • #66035

    Willem de Kooning Door to the river 1960     While I’m trying to read my way into the world of vaccines, not my field at all, I think the lo
    [See the full post at: Vaccines for Guinea Pigs]

    #66036

    zerosum
    Participant

    I’ve got to repost my questions
    —–
    Will a vaccine reduces serious infections and/or death?

    1. Should everyone take the vaccine for covid19?
    2. Should a person take the covid19 test before getting the covid19 vaccine?
    3. Should a person take the vaccine after getting covid19?
    4. Should a person take the vaccine after getting covid19 after being admitted in the hospital?
    5. Should a person who is over 65 yrs old, who have other issues, (high blood pressure, diabetic, over weight, immune system compromised, etc.) take the vaccine?
    6. Should a person who is in a care home take the vaccine?

    If you answer yes to the above questions, you are wasting your money and endangering your health.
    ——
    Better than a vaccine?
    Recommendation for everyone over 65 who are afraid to die and are richer than me?
    1. Spend your savings to enjoy life
    2. Go south to get your vitamin D from the sunshine
    3. Eat a great non-fattening diet to get your Zinc
    4. Don’t use cheap care workers. Use a live-in nurse
    5. If you lost your partner, Don’t forget that when you are retired, soul mates are attracted by the color of gold not your sexy body
    6. Travel in your own plane with only your entourage.
    7. Continue to avoid the rif-raf
    8. Keep doing virtual meetings and avoid creating demonstrations by any opponents ( Four geoeconomic summits compressed in one week tell the story of where we stand in these supremely dystopian times… The (virtual) signing of RCEP in Vietnam was followed by the equally virtual BRICS meeting hosted by Moscow, the APEC meeting hosted by Malaysia, and the G20 this past weekend hosted by Saudi Arabia.)
    —–
    Does anybody remember ….
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide_scandal
    Thalidomide was introduced in 1956 and was aggressively marketed by the German pharmaceutical company Chemie Grünenthal as a medication for anxiety, trouble sleeping, “tension”, and morning sickness.[3][4] It was introduced as a sedative and medication for morning sickness without having been tested on pregnant women.

    #66037

    Doc Robinson
    Participant

    For more information, I recommend this article which was published last month by the American Chemical Society journal ACS Nano. It explains differences and tradeoffs between vaccine approaches, with some companies using a human adenovirus platform (Sputnik V, J&J, CanSino), while others use a chimpanzee adenovirus (Oxford/Astrazeneca). The article also gives details about the nanotechnology involved in the mRNA vaccines, and why some mRNA vaccines may contain chemicals like polyethylene glycol (PEG).

    COVID-19 Vaccine Frontrunners and Their Nanotechnology Design
    https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c07197

    #66038

    Basseterre Kitona
    Participant

    Speaking of vaccine guinea pigs, here is a good example of the risks as NPR looked into a rushed dengue virus vaccine in the Philippines:

    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/05/03/719037789/botched-vaccine-launch-has-deadly-repercussions

    Cure was worst than the disease. Perhaps the most interesting part is the the Phillipino gov prosecuted 10 public health officials during the fallout.

    Granted most western govs are pretty feckless these days. But if I were a public health tyrant then maybe I’d think twice about pushing experimental vaccines if it could land me in jail.

    #66039

    zerosum
    Participant

    Lesson learned …. don’t talk to the FBI
    Donald Trump Pardons Mike Flynn 3 Years After Ex-Security Adviser Charged With Lying to FBI

    #66041

    No vaccine- as if your life depended on it. Autoimmune diseases are precisely what vaccines are accused of causing by all the better “conspiracy” theorists.

    Can I dance on Zoom? I cannot. Can I wrap my arms around you? No, I cannot. Can we knock our foreheads together in mutual despair? No. We cannot. Keep your eyes on 3 dimensional life- the real thing. Not the virtual reality we are being sold. Live 3D. (short i).
    Happy Thanksgiving, all my American 1D friends!

    #66043

    a kullervo
    Participant

    Greetings,

    Let us get things straight:
    – You are going to be blackmailed by TPTB into taking a potentially unsafe vaccine, otherwise you will be sentenced to death by starvation/suicide («No vaccine? No work, can’t go outside, can’t buy food.») What are you going to do? Fight? After all these years of dutiful compliance?

    Get real! You are fooling yourself.
    Can you hear the rest of the sheep bleat? Good – go join ’em.

    As for me, I’m already dead – just a matter of time until the body catches up with it.

    #66044

    a kullervo
    Participant

    (My apologies)

    What are you going to do? Fight? After all these years of dutiful compliance?

    #66048

    Geppetto
    Participant

    @a kullervo

    No…what I’m going to do is what I said: adapt..create and endure. Trust me they do not want to fight with little peeps that can make actually make something (weapons?) and they know it. Think about it…they have to call somebody to screw the lightbulb in. Who has the power?

    ‘Course I’m 2 IPA’s down so my thinking may be chemically biased. Happy thanksgiving even if you think the founders were scoundrels. Enjoy your family and friends ..forget the history for a day. Quit killing the messengers.

    Peace

    #66050

    Geppetto
    Participant

    And just to be clear..I have traveled the world and no country I have been to has better craft beer than the USA.

    Just sayin’

    🙂

    #66051

    Bill Roope
    Participant

    How wonderful to be an American pharmaceutical company.
    The government gives you money to develop a
    vaccine for the Corona virus.
    And, indemnity from any harm it may cause.
    You can sell it at a high price, and keep all the profits.
    And, if it does cause severe auto-immune disorders,
    there’s a vast new group of lifelong patients to sell
    expensive and dangerous drugs to.

    #66052

    a kullervo
    Participant

    @geppetto

    Thank you for your words.
    Not killing the messengers – nevertheless, too many of them tend to become tiresome.

    Happy Thanksgiving to you and to all who allow themselves to really celebrate the day throughout the world, regardless of what is about to be foisted upon us all by whatever authority.

    Cheers

    (Thanksgiving not a thing in the culture where I was brought in but your kindness is welcome.)

    #66053

    a kullervo
    Participant

    @geppetto

    (afterthought)
    TPTB don’t need the little people for menial tasks, they have the robots and the “spineless” – even if you run out of parts for the former, you will always have a steady supply of the latter (until mankind fades.)

    Craft beer – fortunate of him/her who have tasted ’em all!

    #66054

    ezlxa1949
    Participant

    I see what looks like another predetermined outcome. Today the ABC (Australian) offers a “Coronacast” introduced thus:

    Is the Oxford vaccine worse than the other ones?

    On Coronacast with Dr Norman Swan

    All of a sudden, the world has three strong vaccine options to fight coronavirus. There’s the Moderna vaccine, the Pfizer vaccine and now the Oxford vaccine.

    But while Moderna and Pfizer both reported they were more than 90 per cent effective, the press release for Oxford said it was only 70 per cent effective on average.

    Australia has a deal to get access to the Oxford vaccine if it’s approved, but is it as good?

    Source

    This ignores the rest of the Oxford press release which states:
    • In the two different dose regimens vaccine efficacy was 90% in one and 62% in the other
    • Higher efficacy regimen used a halved first dose and standard second dose

    Source

    So yes, while the average of 90 and 62 is 76%, the issue is that the better results came with the second does, which the ABC seems to have ignored. I wonder why.

    #66074

    Dr. D
    Participant

    That’s great and you’re totally right, we shouldn’t do this for profit.

    One problem: I went down and asked the top research doctors if they’d like to work for free and they said after 13 years of straight As in lower education, 6 years of intense unpassable medical training and 25 years of field research, never having vacations or seeing their families and they said they had mortgages and just couldn’t manage to work for free on a volunteer basis. They put in a lot of free hours as it is.

    So I went to Home Depot and asked the men standing around if they wanted to work for free, but they said no, they had rent to pay and families to feed.

    So I went to the farmer, since he has all the goods and seems to run everything, and asked him if he could provide all my workers food for free. But he said he has land taxes, labor costs, pays for parts, tires, and oil by the hundred-thousand and couldn’t work for free.

    So I went to the oil rig and asked them if they could work for free to pay the farmer, but they said they have to pay roughnecks, helicopter pilots, petroleum engineers, have steel parts breaking down, pipeline, and refining costs.

    So I asked the chemical plant if they could work for free, and deliver free feedstock for the vaccines, free plastic for the syringes, free alcohol for the wipes, but they said they have warehouse and trucking costs and couldn’t work for free.

    So all these people said they didn’t want to work for nothing, make no profit, spend a year and have less to show for it than when they started, lose their houses, factory, refinery, their family, their home, their skill.

    Because it’s not about the “profit” is it? It’s about mobilizing and directing, totally consuming and destroying resources to accomplish an end. And as we merely have the hours of our lives, at the end of our long, arduous, unpleasant, and for doctors as well as oil men: dangerous work, we strangely feel we should have MORE afterwards, not less. That we shouldn’t START in a mansion and end in a tent for our trouble, our risk, our time, but quite the reverse: that as a society and a people we should all START in a buffalo-skin tent and END in a warm house with electricity and hot water, and this is how we do it.

    But that’s me. Maybe you can convince the entire nation, all the people together to get less, to have no seed corn set aside after the end of a year’s or a life’s work.

    Meanwhile, I was thinking, if only we had capitalism, I could CHOOSE to buy the Russian, the Swiss, the American, the British vaccine – or no vaccine at all – at my leisure. AND I wouldn’t pay for any of them except the one I wanted, I supported, I believed in. Then the vaccine creators, having wide competition, not only would they have to create it at a reasonable price, not only would they have to be better and safer than the next guy, but they would have to keep lowering prices in order to compete until – like HCQ and other off-patent drugs, they are so close to free it’s almost like no profit at all. They are commodities, available to all.

    #66076

    madamski
    Participant

    Regarding mRNA “vaccines”: rogue recombinant DNA is almost guaranteed to be the outcome. Mess with the messengers, you mess with the message.

    *(%

    As for wishing we still had cpitalism: we do. And capitalism, like some famous blokes said, always leads to slavery, as does socialism, monarchy, communism, any -ism.

    All -isms are something one works for and, about the time think you have it, vanishes into yet another form of more or less totalitarianism before resuming our favorite reformative matrix: chaos.

    #66080

    Geppetto
    Participant

    @madamski wrote:

    “As for wishing we still had cpitalism: we do. And capitalism, like some famous blokes said, always leads to slavery, as does socialism, monarchy, communism, any -ism.

    All -isms are something one works for and, about the time think you have it, vanishes into yet another form of more or less totalitarianism before resuming our favorite reformative matrix: chaos.”

    Oh woman! that just speaks to me! So much free energy available in chaos. Design from resource opportunity knocks!. Got mused once out of the blue…I wrote it on the big squeaky pen board in the shop…..”The door from darkness open onto chaos”. It just made sense now.

    ………for all the doom and gloom on TAE I will not be beat down!

    hahahahahha!

    #66082

    Doc Robinson
    Participant

    Dr D’s comment seems to be erroneously considering “not for profit” to mean the same as all-volunteer (“work for nothing”).

    For example, most community hospitals in the USA are nongovernment “not for profit”, yet employees there can be well paid. CEOs of some nonprofits earn millions of dollars per year.

    “The highest-paid nonprofit leaders — CEOs, Executive Directors, etc. — all earn at least $900k per year, and into the tens of millions for the largest of hospitals and health systems.”

    https://www.causeiq.com/insights/highest-paid-nonprofit-ceos/

    https://www.aha.org/statistics/fast-facts-us-hospitals

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