Reverse Engineer
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ashvin post=1677 wrote:
Tell that to their spouses/children/beneficiaries who are not only left in the world without them, but have to fork over their potential inheritance to a fascist government or a ruthless debt collector.Well Ash, I don’t think people should be allowed to inherit anything at all. Inheritance is part of what creates the classes of Haves and Have Nots. In any event, Debt collectors may try to go after assets held by those remaining alive, except the assets aren’t worth anything. Their labor is not worth anything. There is nothing to collect, and there never will be. So the debt is irredeemable. It CANNOT EVER be repaid. You are down a Rabbit Hole here which you just don’t seem to get, or perhaps are just willfully ignoring because it doesn’t fit your narrative of debt slavery.
Anyhow, by no means am I making the case that people are escaping from problems that come from debt repudiation. There will be many. Just not really likely to be the sort of problems you paint a picture of. At least not IMHO.
ashvin post=1675 wrote: RE,
None of that is disputed by me. I think you simply misunderstood the scale of conspiracy I was referring to by “meta-narrative”. All of the stuff regarding the Western capitalists, their puppet politicians and their central banking system over the course of many decades, including secret policy meetings (such as the one on Jekyll Island to create the FRA), seems quite obvious to me at this point. The problem for me is when people take legitimate conspiracies, along with other accurate information/data and isolated historical events, and attempt to weave it all together into one giant story, narrated by an all-powerful, all-encompassing group of human beings (and perhaps aliens). I’m not accusing anyone here of doing so, but Alex Jones (for ex.) is on the wrong side of that line for me. Indeed, anyone who confidently claims that climate change (and perhaps peak oil as well) is a complete hoax perpetrated by TPTB has already crossed over too far IMO.
Now you are just quibling about the level of complexity anyone chooses to work their way through in terms of developing a coherent narrative. Although I personally tend to be fairly conservative in terms of how far past the “obvious” Conspiracy with its locus at the BIS I will speculate on, I don’t have any problem with others who will draw further connections beyond that. I don’t have some arbitrary line where somebody has “crossed over” and “gone too far”. IMHO, that is very parochial thinking and limiting in what might in fact be truth, or at least have a grain of truth to it.
Anyhow, the most IMPORTANT Conspiracy and the one which I believe is inarguable is that in fact there never has been a “Democratic” FSofA, or even a Republic for that matter. Its just a shell, with the real power held by multinational corporations, descendents of the British and Dutch East India Companies. Yet most people even here would likely scoff at the idea that the “USA” of their imagination has NEVER existed at all. Most people here seem to think its ust with the passage of the Patriot Act and NDAA that the FSofA is “becoming” Fascist. In fact it always has been so. I’ve been aware of it since boyhood, and I am past 50 years old now.
Inosfar as all the various subterfuges and assassinations over the years, come on,do you really think Lee Oswald was operating on his own? Several large towers collapse on their own footprint, one of which did not even sustain an impact? To think these things happenned randomly boggles my mind, the statisticl probability is nil. We ARE being controlled by a large scale criminal conspiracy, and it has been in operation for a very long time. Far before the founding of this country/shell corporation.
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ashvin post=1672 wrote: The reason I think it’s important to make the distinction is that, through your argument, it makes it seem like there are no negative, long-term consequences to these students taking on boat loads of debts, or any other borrower for that matter. Yet, there they are.
Oh, there are plenty of Negative Consequences. You can read all about them in the Book of Revelation
Revelation18:11-13 wrote:
And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
The consequence here Ash is the collapse of the Civilization we live in. TEOTWAWKI. “Its all going up in smoke”, as I wrote on Peak Oil 4 years ago, “in the Greatest Bonfire of Paper Wealth in All of Recorded History”.
There are consequences to be sure. Many Dead People for one. Dead People do not pay back debts. EVER.
RE
From the introduction to “Tragedy and Hope”
Carroll Quigley wrote: …[T]he powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less
than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the
political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. this system
was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in
concert by secret agreements arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences. The
apex of the system was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basle,
Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world’s central banks which
were themselves private corporations….“It must not be felt that these heads of the world’s chief central banks were themselves
substantive powers in world finance. They were not. Rather, they were the technicians
and agents of the dominant investment bankers of their own countries, who had raised
them up and were perfectly capable of throwing them down. The substantive financial
powers of the world were in the hands of these investment bankers (also called
‘international’ or ‘merchant’ bankers) who remained largely behind the scenes in their own
unincorporated private banks. These formed a system of international cooperation and
national dominance which was more private, more powerful, and more secret than that of
their agents in the central banks. this dominance of investment bankers was based on
their control over the flows of credit and investment funds in their own countries and
throughout the world. They could dominate the financial and industrial systems of their
own countries by their influence over the flow of current funds though bank loans, the
discount rate, and the re-discounting of commercial debts; they could dominate
governments by their own control over current government loans and the play of the
international exchanges. Almost all of this power was exercised by the personal influence
and prestige of men who had demonstrated their ability in the past to bring off successful
financial coupes, to keep their word, to remain cool in a crisis, and to share their winning
opportunities with their associates.”RE
Quigley’s denials notwithstanding, the book itself makes a very clear cut case for a generations long conspiracy. No it is not uniform and no all events are not perectly controlled, but the manipulation and who is doing it is very clear indeed. To deny this is conspiracy is to deny what is plain obvious.
ashvin post=1663 wrote:
Also, there is no need for you to speculate on the various reasons why you will not be banned from TAE…
I already told you that you won’t be and why.
Ashvin, speculation is what I DO, whether I need to or not. It is one of my more charming qualities. 🙂
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ashvin post=1661 wrote:
In the end, someone/something always paysDisagreed. That which is mathematically impossible to repay will not be repaid.
In the End Ash, Monetary Systems DIE. Always.
RE
ashvin post=1649 wrote: Of course, we don’t spend much time writing about those issues on the front page, but, speaking for myself, that is NOT because I wish to remain “mainstream” in the eyes of readers, but rather because I genuinely disagree with many aspects of conspiratorial meta-narratives (those which attempt to fit almost every single significant occurrence on Earth into a story of coordinated takeover).
I’m curious Ash, have you ever read Carrol Quigley’s “Tragedy and Hope: History of the World in Our Time”? Its now online Open Source available to download for free. Here is a link to the pdf
https://archive.org/download/TragedyAndHope/TH.pdf
Its over 1000 pages, so unless you are a fabulously fast reader, I don’t expect to hear back from you too soon on this. Unless of course you already have read it. After you finish it, we can start talking Conspiracy Theories.
Insofar as getting my ass booted off TAE, at the moment it seems unlikely for a few reasons. I haven’t had enough time yet to irritate enough people, first of all. LOL. Second, overall TAE has a lower percentage of jerks than most websites. Third, the number of people participating in this forum is quite low right now. Fourth, I now have DD to go over the top whenever I see fit. So I’m likely good for a while here on TAE.
Happy Reading!
ashvin post=1651 wrote: Either way, borrowers and/or taxpayers will be forced to pay in one form or another for as long as its possible for the system to remain coherent, and that could be long enough to completely enslave/impoverish quite a few people.
The system has already gone incoherent, that is why you have a Hockey Stick here.
As far as the borrowers are concerned, the reason they are not paying back the loans is they have no job. Said borrower is equally poor with the debt or without it, the only time it makes a difference is if he ever does get a paying job, which for many is highly unlikely at this point.
As far as the lenders are concerned, they will get paid by Da Goobermint. As far as Da Goobermint is concerned, they will roll another $27B or so a year into the deficit to cover the interest payments on the $270B pricipal owed here. Chump change! Nobody will notice another $27B/year as the liabilities climb into the Trillions/Quadrillions!
This is how it will go until the wheels fly off the bus. You are immersed in a system of irredeemable debt of essentially fictitious money to begin with. It can’t even be paid off with Slave Labor, because the Slaves are themselves a liability.
As to the overall lifespan of these borrowers, its probably going to on average be shorter, but for how ever long it will be, one thing here is for certain. The vast majority of these folks will never pay these odious debts, nor is it likely they will be enslaved to pay for it either. Slaves cost too much to feed and clothe. They will simply be abandoned and impoverished, but that would have been true whether they took on the debt or not.
Eventually after a whole lot of dieing, some new economy will rise from the ashes, much like the legendary Phoenix. One can only hope that it is not an economy based on money. For money is the enabler of great Evil, and must be expunged from the community of Homo Sapiens if we are to avoid going the way of the Dinosaur.
For all who seek to perpetuate this system, they will all Burn in Everlasting Damnation in the Fire and Brimstone of Hell. I for one suggest handing them all a First Class Ticket to Hell right now.
RE
I edited out the picture so now the text appears. You can find the whole article with videos and pics at the Diner.
To TAE tech staff: When are you going to fix this glitch? This is getting very old.
I read this article on Zero Hedge earlier today, and of course it does not surprise me. The Student Loan Ponzi is just another one in the panopoly of debt creation mechanisms that have been built up here to keep the Merry Go Round spinning another day.
I do not agree with Ilargi though that the Student-Borrowers will be carrying this Chain around their necks for the rest of their lives. The system will collapse well before the Repo man can catch up with them.
Stop for a minute and think about it. $270B in Student Loans. If each student has an average of say $10K in loans outstanding, that means there are 27M Deadbeats out there. How many Repo Men would it take to try to put the squeeze on 27M Deadbeats?
Just like the Mortgages, regardless of what the legal code reads, these folks are not EVER going to pay back those loans. Hold their feet to the fire, throw them in Debtors Prison, WHATEVER, the loans just are not going to be paid back. Not by those folks anyhow.
So the Taxpayer will pay them back? No, these folks ARE the Taxpayers of the future in theory. If they cannot pay back the loans, they certainly cannot pay the taxes levied to pay back the loans EITHER.
The system is TOAST Ilargi. Nobody is ever paying back Irredeemable debt, it will get washed one way or the other. There is quite a bit of Safety in Numbers. There just is no way Da Goobermint is going to imprison 27M Student Debtors, and even if you decided to Hang ’em High for their Debts, you STILL would not get paid back here.
27M students are not ging to be Debt Slaves for the rest of their lives, count on it. All the Banks will go up in flames long before the Repo Men can collect on that debt. These questions are not resolved in any other way than Violence, so I suggest in order for a more complete coverage you consider this a bit more carefully. JMHO.
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Back in the days when I was a Rookie Commenter on the Peak Oil Message Board, there was a Veteran Commenter who went by the nom de plume of “Monte Quest”. What occurred with Monte reminds me a whole lot of what seems to be occuring with El Gallinazo.
For his time, Monte was an EXTREME Kollapsnik. It was from reading his stuff that I first became aware of the population collapse of the Deer on St. Matthews Island. Monte made a very convincing case for a MASSIVE die off coming down the pipe, and you have to remember this is in 2007 even before Lehman went down. Besides that, I believe Monte was writing on Peak Oil right from its beginnings in around 2004.
Anyhow, Monte’s viewpoint was so extreme that he often was subject to vicious attacks from many readers, and this inevitably escalated into some fabulous Napalm contests as well with Monte name-calling the Idiots attacking him, and the Idiots name-calling Monte a “Monster”. I will say that in subtext as I read it Monte probably did favor culling the herd of Homo Sapiens in a purposeful manner, which does earn a “Monster” title generally speaking.
The result of the constant Napalm when Monte posted was that eventually, even though he was one of the longest standing members and a very well read fellow who was a fountain of information, the Moderators on Peak Oil Banned him. He may have been later reinstated, I don’t know since shortly thereafter *I* also was banned from Peak Oil and I stopped tracking the board.
Here in this thread, it appears to me that EG has run afoul of the Mod staff, as personified in this case by Ashvin. The disputes also appear to go back in time some and predate my recent arrival on this scene, I won’t speculate on them just on what I see occuring here.
There is a similarity between the Peak Oil board and TAE, in that both media I think attempt to remain “Mainstream” and accessible to people with moderate viewpoints, and they want to be taken “seriously” as an information outlet. In other words, TAE doesn’t want to have the Rep of being an Alex Jones Tin Foil Website. LOL. Many Bloggers attempt to distance themselves from the “Tin Foil”, most notably Karl Denninger who will ban you at the drop of a hat the MINUTE you drop “9-11” into a post. LOL.
Ilargi here noted in a recent post how he and Stoneleigh tend to avoid getting into discussions of the violent repercussions of the economic spin down we see occuring, and try to focus on what they believe are the “positive” ways you can prepare for the oncoming dislocations. Its a reasonably valid focus, just the problem is that it simply does not cover the REALITY all that well. If you do not analyze the will to violence that occurs as a result of an economic spin down, you are entirely ignoring all the fundamental reasons societies go to War to begin with. You can’t NOT TALK about such things and be complete in the analysis.
Anyhow, as I see it EG is venting his frustrations here with the overall spin of the board, and since multi-thread software has been dropped on he is being a bit more outspoken with some of his more “Tin Foil” thinking. I don’t say that negatively, because I am as Tin Foil as any blogger out there myself 🙂
For me, I finally resolved this problem by opening up the Doomstead Diner for Bizness. So far since I arrived on TAE I have been well treated and tolerated, but then again I don’t go to far off the reservation with what I will write here either. On DD, ANYTHING GOES. I’m not worried about being taken “seriously” by anybody. I just wanted a forum where I could write it as I see it, without some Mod telling me to take it down a notch or two.
As I have read TAE over these past 3 years or so, Stoneleigh in particular just seems like a nice person with a good bead on the economics who is trying to get communities to wake up and smell the coffee. The lectures and tours are her way of doing that, and TAE as a Wild & Crazy website which pitches out Alex Jones style Tin Foil probably will not help her in that endeavor. So the likelihood for el Gallinazo here is that if he persists, even WITH the multi-thread board he’s at least going to make some enemies, and at some point could get Banned as well. I know this, I BTDT on OPBs numerous times already.
In any event, I will once again use this opportunity to PLUG DD 🙂 On DD, there is no underlying motvation to stay “Mainsteream” and generally acceptable to the Group Think of the world. If you figure the spin down is the result of some Old Jews aka Zionists aka Illuminati aka Global Elite or WTF it is you wanna label them, please feel free to detail your observations on DD 🙂 If its a real good one, I’ll be happy to put it up as a Feature Article on the Blog also. Zero Point Energy? No Problemo! I’ll counter with my Spirit/Gravity/Energy equation and we can debate the Existence of God until the Internet Goes Dark. NO LIMITS! I don’t have to stand up in front of any City Council group and seem like I am an Expert on anything. That is what Stoneleigh does, and more power to her for doing so, but it doesn’t cover all the bases by any means.
bluebird post=1632 wrote:
But how long is it going to take after the global financial Ponzi bubble implodes, when we really will need to become nomadic moving from place to place using those primitive survival skills? A few years? A decade? How fast does total collapse come?Timelines are the nastiest stumbling block for the wannabee Nostradamus. Because there are sooooo many inter-relationships and so many alternative tracks it is just a crapshoot to say it will take X number of years from today before its Lights Out and whoever remains standing is working with Stone Knives and Bear Skins.
To begin with, even a complete collapse of the Global Economy probably doesn’t end Money at the Nation State level for a while. The FSoA for instance is likely to set up a Command Economy similar to that of the old Soviet Union, and issue Ration Coupons (of the electronic plastic variety) for both Food and Energy. You already see that with the expansion of the SNAP Card program. Something like 48M people are on that program now, around 14% of the population. That is not a small number.
Second, I think most observers underestimate the power of demand destruction here. The amount of fuel waste is soooo great here in the FSofA that we can probably cut easy 20-30% off consumption without that radically changing the way we live. Just large scale car-pooling would do that. The problem of course with such a vast reduction in consumption is that it would completely collapse the current economy, to an even greater degree than it already is collapsing.
Still due to demand destruction here and in Eurotrashland along with the developing nations and producers like China, with prduction levels at current levels we would quickly be AWASH in a sea of oil. The more expensive Oil will of course be shut in because the prices it can command will not support such production.
I try these days to get a handle on how quick the timeline is moving by observing the spin down in Greece and the contagion to the rest of the PIIGS. Canary in the Coal Mine there. Greeks have pretty much stopped buying Kraut Kars, and between the layoffs and the General Strikes called on average of once a week or so, BAU has pretty much ground to a halt. Any projections they are making for Tax Revenues are complete fantasy these days. Even so though, for Greece it still looks as though they are a couple of years away from Lights Out in Athens.
If its going to still take a couple of years at least for the Greeks, it will take longer still for the core countries of northern Eurotrashland on purely economic grounds maye a decade? However, intervening in that decade is the lieklihood of either World War or numerous Civil Wars breaking out throughout the region, similar to what is going on in MENA.
Any large scale War Effort will open up the Credit Spigot here in the FSofA. So in fact you could get a Wartime “Boom” Economy for a while with this. It will likely spend itself pretty quick though.
Anyhow, all things considered, it seems to me here in the FSofA we still have another decade of Lights On and some measure of BAU with cars still motoring about, albeit fewer of them all the time. I think more people will be going on the Dole and surreptitiously as I think is already occuring the industrialized food apparatus is become subsumed into the Fascist State through Monsanto and Conagra. Because of that, I don’t think immediate starvation is likely here in the FSofA.
The biggest Wild Card here in the FSofA is the political dislocation that is already evident in OWS and is likely to keep expanding in different forms. There will eventually be Home Grown Terrorist groups which form up and do things like blow infrastructure such as Oil refineries and Pipelines. Impossible to say though when that type of behavior will reach a Critical Mass.
Complete Lights Out and scraping the dirt for food is probably still decades away here in the FSofA. Its going to be though a period of extreme Fascism of the sort EG fears the most. Though most of us probably will not ever hear about it directly through verifiable sources, like in Nazi Germany there will be Death Camps. Of all the “Lifeboat” strategies you need to engage in during this period, Numero Uno here is staying OUT of situations where you might be herded into a Death Camp. Stay OUT of prison. As states and municipalities run out of money to fund their prisons, they will transfer the prisoners to the FEMA Camps already built. Who will count the numbers who go in and who comes out of those places? The BLS?
Finally, be wary fo Goobermint job offers that incorporate Relocation for you and your family. When Da Goobermint offers you an AMTRAK ticket to Utah to build Windmills, do not get on that train. The destination will not be Utah, and there will be no Windmills at the end of the line to build. There will only be the Human Waste Reprocessing Facility in San Antonio.
ashvin post=1625 wrote:
So far, I have heard nothing from you about “remedial courses” to survive what you believe to occur in the future, above and beyond what is advocated at TAE.I’ll chip in a couple not listed so far as I can tell on TAE! 🙂
https://www.primitiveskills.com/
https://www.nwsos.com/public/survival/primitive.htmlRE
el gallinazo post=1623 wrote: Ash
I just went through Nicole’s lifeboat, and only points (6) and (9) are not totally tied into property rights. Her lifeboat is built upon the premise of a minimal rule of law vis-a-vis property rights.This fallacy is one which is repeated in almost every Doomsteading Plan you commonly find regurgitated on the net. Prepping Doomsteaders seem to believe the biggest of their problems will come from the Hordes of Zombies raiding their Raised Bed Permaculture Gardens for Tomatoes. Not.
The much more likely danger comes from Da Goobermint/Military commandeering your production or simply replacing you with someone more connected to the power structure. Betting on being able to maintain your Private Property Doomstead as your own little Safe Haven is not a very good bet when there is a much larger power structure surrounding you.
IMHO, the best plans do not require you hold onto Private Property any more than that which you can reasonably carry with you. You should be self sufficient in being able to create shelter for yourself wherever you go. You should know how to “work the system” to get hold of Goobermint Cheese and whatever else Da Goobermint will dole out to try to keep the system together. You should be familiar with means of finding food and water in marginal territory. You should develop skills that could be Useful to the Fascist State. I often council younger friends who are good with numbers to bone up on Cryptography. Both Encoders and Code Breakers are very rare people and are essential components for both the Fascist State AND the Resistance, whichever side you think is the better one to line up with to insure your survival.
Your greatest and best defense is in your Mobility. Who is better off in Libya, the Doomsteader with a wonderful little farm pulling water from the enormous aquifer below Libya, or the Runner who can GTFO of Dodge FAST when NATO drops the Death from Above on his little town?
Da Goobermints all over the world will be doing what they can to restrict mobility and keep you TRAPPED inside their borders as a Taxpayer, or keep you OUT as another mouth to feed inside their borders. However, the world remains a big place, and all borders remain porous. I was recently down on the Mexican Border, and I can tell you for sure anybody who really wants to can move either way across that border. The Canadian Border is even more porous. You just don’t want to be using the Public conduits for such movement.
You cannot “own” or hold that much, and that which you do try to hold onto in many cases will just slow you down. Whatever occurs here, you are going to have to make a go of it AS YOU GO. A couple of months of buffer is about the best you can hope for here. You WILL have to line up on one side or the other, either as a Fascist Apparatchik or as a Soldier of the Resistance. NOBODY will sit on the fence and make it through the Zero Point.
Travel lite, stay mobile, keep your wits about you. In the end, all you really ever have is your physical skills and that which you hold in your head to help you survive. This is all you EVER really “own”.
ashvin post=1615 wrote: If not, and words written about the nature of our global system (IMO) and decentralized preparations/initiatives actually will make a difference for the lives of other people, then I don’t want to regret missing that opportunity for the rest of my life.
I second this initiative.
RE
el gallinazo post=1608 wrote: How much time do you think that this blog and others like it have?
I think TAE and most of the other Blogs chronicling the Collapse actually have quite a bit of time here. They are all very marginal in impact. Even the best read posts on TAE get only a few thousand page hits, and that is WORLDWIDE. If/when you get an audience in the Millions, then you might have something to worry about.
The Blogosphere as a whole gets a bigger readership, but when taken as a whole its a cacophany of many ideas that basically turn into Babel and so in aggregate does not move the zeitgeist in any particular direction. In essence here, you only really have something to worry about when large numbers of people start to PAY ATTENTION to you. About the only Financial Blog with THAT much power I think is Zero Hedge, but ZH is its own microcosm of Babble.
The population as a whole is still driven in Group Think by the MSM. As long as this continues to work for TPTB to push around gross general opinion, fire up the hoi polloi for War and so forth, the chit chat that goes on here in the Blogosphere is just a bit of White Noise in the background. Its not making any real impact as of yet. This may change and one should not give up here, but as of right now everything Stoneleigh, Ilargi, Ashvin, and in fact even Tyler Durden is writing is just piss into a Hurricane. Long way to go before such things present any threat to TPTB.
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el gallinazo post=1610 wrote:
BTW
We are seeing a lot of blank posts that seem to be connected with a bug related to images and youtube links. I learned this morning that if a youtube link does not post in one line, then it will blank out the entire post. Original youtube links are always short enough to post in one line. It is the embedded links that are usually too long. The easiest work around is to take the title of the embedded link and paste it into youtube. This will kick out the original upload which can then be pasted into one’s post.
Interesting work-around, however I simply have given up on including Pics or Vids here. I’ll put them up on DD instead. All OUR software is working just FINE! Even our Avatars work! 😛
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Glennda post=1594 wrote: I agree that the institution of private property is a kind of theft from the commons. One of the big issues in the Occupy movement is whether “crimes against property” are violent, or should that only be reserved for “crimes against people”.
In a Property Ownership Society, crimes against Property are synonymous with crimes against the Person, since the Person depends on his Ownership of the property to survive.
For instance, if you are a Farmer and somebody steals your growing corn, this is a crime against your person since you as farmer need that corn to survive.
“Commons” such as they might exist anymore have all been gobbled up by the property ownership system. Hell, Nation States claim ownership over Oil fields dozens of miles off their shores all the time. Who “owns” the Fishing rights around the Falklands/Maldives? Argentinians or Brits?
I live in Alaska right next door to one of the biggest “commons” in North America, Denali National Park. Can I go Hunt in Denali unrestricted? Hardly.
The course of History really has been one of taking all the commons and locking them up under one form of Private Ownership or another. Its all nonsense and will soon be shown to be such. Nobody can own the Earth. Its an artifice just as debt is an artifice. You have to buy into the obligation for it to have meaning. Once you no longer buy into it, the whole concept evaporates.
RE
Glennda post=1590 wrote:
RE said.
“Overall, the Constitution is a Document designed to protect Private Property rights and enforce the dichotomy between the Haves and the Have Nots. There is a REASON only Property Owners had voting franchise rights under the Constitution you know.”This was exactly what went wrong with ancient Athens before Solon devised a cancelation of debts and the return of Athenians who had to sell themselves and family to slavery. They later instituted a lottery for serving on their Council of 500. It seems to be the first instance of a populist democracy at work. While it did not work all that well, it may well have been head and shoulders above letting the landed well-born and rich merchants literally enslave debtors.
I think the Greeks made many attempts at instituting Popular Democracy, but the Greeks like all other cultures of the Old World both West and East were already infected by the Evil of Money. The very fact Greeks had to “cancel” Debts meant that they accepted the idea that Debts existed and were enforceable to begin with.
All the terminology in your post speaks to the idea of Ownership of the Earth. “Landed Well-Born” people? What is that? It means that because your father or his father grabbed a piece of Land, when you are born you are More Equal than others not so “well born”. Soon as you accept the idea of being “well born”, you accept inequity and you create the classes of Haves and Have Nots.
Hunter-Gatherers of course never latched onto such concepts, because they moved around all the time and “owning” a piece of land wasn’t part of the paradigm. Thus no Money either. Money is just a proxy for ownership of resource really.
There is NEVER Democracy where there is Ownership. the two concepts are mutually exclusive. Ownership dichotomizes a population into Haves and Have Nots. ALWAYS. It cannot be countenanced anymore if Homo Sapiens is to survive. The concept has to be expunged completely before we can engineer a Better Tomorrow.
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el gallinazo post=1588 wrote: RE
“Marginal command of the English language.” Jeez, you are a tough task master.
Indeed 🙂 I am fortunate that English IS my First Language and besides that I’m gifted with a 5 star Vocabulary to boot 🙂 Fortunate for me besides that is English happens to have historically gained hegenomy in much the same manner that the Dollar did, so I am beneficiary of being on the top end of the most commonly used language on the Internet for this kind of argument. I’ll cut slack for ESL speakers who are clear thinkers, but for Dimwits like Zapata? I’ll carve him up like Thanksgiving Turkey. LOL. I’ll do it with NATIVE speakers of English also, just ESL dimwits are sitting ducks for thsi kind of attack. 🙂
But enough of this character. I would like to bring the thread back to the clash between the Constitutionalist in the USA and Sauron’s minions out of Basle and the BIS.
Well, I got some bones to pick with you on Ron Paul style Constitutionalism, but I don’t think I will do it here. Overall, the Constitution is a Document designed to protect Private Property rights and enforce the dichotomy between the Haves and the Have Nots. There is a REASON only Property Owners had voting franchise rights under the Constitution you know.
RE
Possibility exists that our NSA Friends are specifically employing ESL types as a means to make the Trolling seem more “real”. However, based on my experience on NUMEROUS boards where I have run itno what are clearly Goobermint trolls, they habitually reference material you cannot find in normal channels. Zapata does not strike me as a paid Troll at the moment. Just a clueless dimwit with a marginal command of the English Language.
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pipefit wrote: If Ben Bernanke said tomorrow that he would write a check for $100 trillion, to pay off the national debt, plus fund all the unfunded liabilities of social security, medicare, etc., the average person would think, “yeah, good idea, write that check, why the heck not.”
If he could in fact do that, it might not be such a bad idea, but he cannot do that, at least not under the rules of double-entry bookkeeping Da Fed works under. If HB created $100T in FRNS, he would simulataneously create another $100T Liability on the Balance sheet of Da Fed. There is no way for him to create $100T in notes without creating such a Liability. HB cannot pay off any old debt, all he can do is Roll It Over into new debt.
The debt cannot be paid off through the issuance of new debt, its impossible. Creation of non-debt money is not within the purview of Da Fed to do, only Treasury could do that, and then only in Theory really. To Naked Print $100T is simply an elimantion of the value structure of interest through the system. It would destroy the value of the currency done in those kind of numbers. Its not a choice Helicopter Ben really has here at the moment.
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El Gallinazo wrote: Smacks of Cass Sunstein’s cynical stable. Maybe the NSA troll bunch out in Anaheim
Unlikely on both counts. Zapata’s prose is ESL. He’s not a native speaker of English. I’m guessing some SA country, otherwise he is Eurotrash.
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el gallinazo post=1580 wrote: RE
I have to admire your patience and fortitude with dealing with this new Viva Zapata character.
EG! You’re ALIVE! I was worried the Mexico Quake took you out. LOL.
Far as Zapata goes, the Patience and Fortitude are the result of playing NICE in the effort to further Plug DD. Trust me, if I was not making my best efforts at presenting logical arguments in the effort to get more readers on DD, I’d go BALLISTIC on this sort of drivel.
TAE however has been quite kind to me so far in allowing me to Plug DD, so I am not going to Napalm the Living Shit out of anyone here. I will most certainly do that on DD though if any such characters have the balls to show up there 🙂
Wonder why I have been BANNED from so many Blogs? LOL.
RE
ashvin post=1578 wrote:
RE – You’re right, it’s nothing new, but it’s much more deeply ingrained and just as under-emphasized as it ever was.
Agreed, which is why we need a wholesale overhaul of the legal system and should scrap English Common Law for the Law of the Inquisition. Let’s face it here, the legal system as it exists is a wholesale failure insofar as dispensing Justice is concerned. We don’t need Perp Walks and Fines for Banksters, it does nothing to fix the problem. What we need is Torture and an excruciatingly Slow Trip into the Great Beyond. You know, something that would make Lloyd Blankfein really think twice before he empties the Pensions of 10,000 Widows and cuts the SNAP Card allowance of 10,000 Orphans.
I go on Record as being in favor of only LEGAL means of Retribution for Crimes Against Humanity. I just think we need an Upgrade of the Legal System here to account for some exceedingly EVIL VERMIN scurrying about our society at the moment. Public Executions of Banksters would be a good start here.
Fun. A topic with all Blank Posts. This is getting old.
Anyhow, this is nothing new. Did Al Capone go to jail for any of the inumerable murders he was responsible for? Hell No. He went to Jail for Tax Evasion. That only because he wasn’t an insider on the system. In his immortal words, “Capitalism is the Legitimate Racket of the Ruling Class”.
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viva zapata post=1568 wrote: So doomsteaddiner, you believe it would have been better for those that benefit from the green revolution to starve?
You’re not framing the question correctly. In all likelihood, most of the current 7B on the planet would never have been born to begin with, so those who were never born would not starve.
Of the remaining people, then its a question of how the food gets distributed out and when the food runs out. Under the current scenario created by the Green Revolution of massive population overshoot, what you are likely to get is a Fast Crash of a biological population similar to the population crash of the deer on St. Matthew’s Island. You have now virtually guaranteed mass starvation on the order of billions of people, whereas had societies been encouraged to live off of only what their territory would support, many fewer would have been born and many fewer would have ended up starving to death.
Ideally, had we begun building a world on sustainable principles 50 or better yet 100 years ago, ideally nobody would have starved anywhere and all people today would be living in relative comfort. As it is, a relatively small percentage of the world lives in great comfort while the vast majority of people barely eke out subsistence lives eating food shipped in from far away they no longer can afford. You have thus guaranteed that billions will now starve to death. Idiots.
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bluebird post=1558 wrote: The Shakers were quite innovative during the 1800s. My sisters and I toured an ongoing restoration of Pleasant Hill, in Kentucky. From what we were told, their demise came with industrialization.
There is a fairly powerful Propaganda Theme which is often repeated when you get into discussions of Communal Systems, which is that they “never” succeed and that pretty much all such systems have ended in Failure.
The historical record in fact tends to bely this idea, since just about all splinter groups that came off of one society and founded another one somewhere else were Communal or Tribal in nature.
My personal favorite example that I often use is the Polynesian Sailing culture from the period of approximately 300AD to 1000AD which populated most of the inhabitable Pacific Islands through this period. This includes most notably the Samoas, New Zealand, the Marquesa Islands, Rapa Nui (Easter Island) and of course the last stop, the Big Island of Hawaii.
Each of these Islands was initially populated by no more than 3 or 4 catamaran rigged sailing canoes with around 10-20 people on board, though later migrations brought more people once they were found. The ability of those Stone Age Navigators to relaibly traverse the Pacific Ocean remains one of the greatest migratory feats of Hom Sapiens in the historical record. At its pinnacle when Cook arrived in Hawaii, the Plynesian Culture covered a greater expanse of the surface of the earth than all of China and North America combined. Obviously at a much lower density since most of the area was water, but all these Islanders were able to communicate and had basically the same culture and language, though it changed over time.
I certainly cannot predict how groups of people might hold together under the kind of spin down we see approaching here. However, I do know for ceetain that NOBODY is going to survive alone. You MUST have a group of people to have any chance of survival anywhere under any circumstances at all.
You may try to join up with an already formed group, but the longer it has been in existence the more fixed are the internal structures of such groups, which generally do not favor the newby at all. Either way though, you really must JOIN with a group for Mutual Protection and defense as well as to have enough different skills around to make the whole unit a going concern. I think it is imperative that people who have been brainwashed into believing that communal systems cannot work need to grasp that this really is how ALL primitive peoples functioned, and without such values of sharing and concern for each other you will go the way of the Dinosaur.
viva zapata post=1562 wrote: Dear Ashvin:
Ha-ha. I exult in the discomfiture of those that react with rage when their biases are exposed. Thanks for playing.
Ashvin wasn’t playing, I was.
You’re going to have a hard time convincing anyone here that GMO crops which produce higher yields per acre are a good thing. Far as feeding 100Ms people with this pig feed, I don’t suppose it ever occured to you that supplying this food practically for free for the last 50 years is the reason the planetary population of Homo Sapiens is in such a vast state of Overshoot to begin with? Now that the energy doesn’t come cheap, neither does the food, so the 6B or so you bred up with your Monsanto GMO seeds and Round Up are just SOL. Gee sorry, the model doesn’t work. Ooops.
Geopolitics according to Zapata:
“The Military-Industrial-Complex: Bringing Peace, Joy and Happiness to the Little People of the World since 1776”
LOL.
viva zapata post=1560 wrote: Ashvin
Ever heard of the green revolution? Know where it came from?
As a matter of fact I do. The Green Revolution is the result of mnufacturers of Ammonium Nitrate used to produce Bombs in WWII turning their production facilities toward the fertilizer market. The result of said revolution has been to destroy the economics of subsistence farmers all across the globe and make them dependent on the industrialized food apparatus that uses these fertilizers to produce cheap monoculture crops on mechanized ag land.
Tell me Zapate, are you simply trolling or are you really as stupid as your posting makes you appear to be?
Ashvin wrote: I guess great blogs think alike!?
Convergent thinking.
I remember back in around 2009 the first time I read one of Stoneleigh’s deflationary credit collapse diatribes. “Holy Shit! Somebody ELSE sees this! How about that?!?!” LOL.
RE
How about the Mormons? They did pretty good.
I think the main thing involved with creating a successul Tribe is having closely shared values and expectations. Also, adversity and the inability to return to some other way of life is important also. I believe many of the Communes of the Back to the Land movement of the 1970s failed simply because it was possile to return to the dominant culture and in fact easier to do that.
This go round, if you can’t make a go of it with your chosen tribal group, you won’t have the choice of going back to something else. Your only choice will be moving on to the Great Beyond.
Surly recently wrote an article about Morris Berman over on DD, “Donner Party America: They Eat Each Other”.
If you’re not familiar with the work of Morris Berman, you might wish to become so immediately. Berman is a cultural historian and social critic, former academic, and author of many books, including a trilogy observing the decline of America.
The Donner Party story and analogy, drawn from the interview below, seemss particularly apt. The observation of the native expedition party, that “they eat each other” reminds me of the observation that the United States has a “wetiko,” or cannibal culture, that Thom Hartmann made in his book, ”The Last Days of Ancient Sunlight.” In that book, Hartman made the point that we needed a new set of stories around which to organize our culture. Berman however, is having none of that. In his view it is far too late. And that is, of course, the view that motivates many on this board. Interesting how these lines tend to converge at some as yet undefined but seemingly-just-over-the-horizon vanishing point.
I first encountered Berman in his book, “Dark Ages America” several years ago. Some of the themes therein are continued in his new book, “Why America Failed,” which is the subject of this interview below with author Nomi Prins.
Berman’s argument is that the seeds of America’s decline were sown from the very beginning. That the culture of hustling, materialism, and the pursuit of personal gain without regard for its effects on other people have been the powerful forces that have motivated Americans from the very beginning ever since the Pilgrims landed in America. We seem to have this idealized view of the founders, and their unselfish beliefs that motivated the creation of our sacred founding documents. The truth is, the fix was in from the very beginning, they created a commercial republic from the start with an eye to preserving property. Wasn’t long before naked self interest had replaced the common good as the primary social good in the colonies.
Read the rest at:
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/03/11/donner-party-america-they-eat-each-other/
RE
Part 2 now up on DD
Why is it that Sovereign Nations don’t issue their own non-Debt based money, instead of becoming a part of the massive International Banking system based on debt? This is another one of those very tough questions to answer which I believe has its roots back at the very beginning of International banking in the Medici Era (at least for a Modern Era analysis). The goal here in Part II of this series is to make a plausible hypothesis for why this has not ben a viable solution over these centuries, if not all the millenia of the Money Game…
Read more at
https://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/03/22/theory-of-everything-part-ii/RE
Jack post=1499 wrote:
It is a shame that the name of God is being dragged into this pictureDisagreed. God is CEO. He should be held accountable.
RE
Very true, the sooner you begin to develop connections inside a smaller community, the better off you will be.
As far as not having sufficient funds to buy a place, an alternative is to get together a group of people to buy together. My friends and I from my old Yahoo group have discussed scenarios like this, keeping the share prices down to $3-5000.
Also, if you choose land that is adjacent to large commons like National Parks, you essentially get a lot of land to do wild food collection on that you don’t pay for. After TSHTF, there won’t be Park Rangers in those places.
Living remote and off the grid entirely however is a very difficult propostition overall, and definitely requires a good size Tribe to suceed. I wouldn’t try it with any less than 10 adults and as many dependents.
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Golden Oxen post=1487 wrote: Could a strong magnetic patriotic leader arise and save us in this, “who can raise the most money to win,” political system we are in?
Eat enough Sushi from Fuk-U-shima, we could get some REALLY magnetic leaders!
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Reverse Engineer post=1486 wrote: [quote=el gallinazo post=1484]As to the break down of the Stasi state through complexity and energy resources, as you know, I am rather sure that they are not facing an energy shortage in the least. Even if you accept the peak fossil fuel paradigm, they are decades away. (I am not writing that we are not running out of cheap fossil fuels, but rather that TPTSB have developed other sources of energy. But I don’t wish to get into that here and now, other than that they are having quite a bit of trouble with their whack-a-mole strategy of suppressing it from “leaking” out.) And complexity breakdown is usually a function of energy shortage.
Not that I don’t think that there will be a huge breakdown of international trade in the near future, precipitated by financial as opposed to energy reasons. But this will simply impoverish us farm animals, and not cripple the coercive state. That is what the presidential executive order of this weekend is all about
I know you have this opinion, however as of yet I haven’t read anything of yours to justify it. I’m sure you’ll present it in due time, but you’ll have to make a pretty good case to convince me of any more than a marginal probability.
As to the extent of your nihilism, I put it in the same category as other folks I’ve read who figure we are all boiling frogs and the Stazi State is inevitaly going to turn whatever is left of the population into Eloi Slaves of Morlock Masters. I don’t buy the meme.
Pulled this back from the ether by quoting myself 🙂 Took out the pic of Yvette Mimieux 🙁
You guys got a maor glitch in your database.
RE
