D Benton Smith
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• You can only be truly free when you don’t believe in God and realize this is the only life you have
This particular precept is just too over the top (or under the sub-basement?) It’s like saying, “You’re only free when you’re sitting on Death Row after losing your last true friend in the world.”
I can easily see how that might make you a little depressed, but how does being totally fucked make you ‘free’?
• Theists believe they are always being watched and ultimately rewarded or punished by God; It is impossible for theists to have integrity; They can never act from innate goodness
I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that people who express resentment about the idea of being watched and/or punished by God have guilty consciences. God isn’t going to see anything that isn’t there to see, (it’s not like he’s going to frame you up or anything) and the only punishments meted out are those dictated by the imminently fair and just laws of cause and effect. Do stuff, get consequences. That’s just common sense whether you believe in God or not. Rejecting belief in God is not going to eliminate consequences. Those are decided by cause and effect (look it up in a science book).
As for claiming the exclusive monopoly on “innate” goodness, I must point out that innate goodness is the ONLY motivation for ALL action. Even the most depraved monster is trying to do what they believe (by their own twisted, perverse and inverted standards) to be the “right” thing to do under the present circumstances as they see them. Incidentally, by the time they are that far gone the definition of “right” has become “right for ME, exclusively, and screw everybody else.”
The problem arises when the perpetrator can no longer accurately assess what is ACTUALLY the right thing. In other words, they can’t really tell the difference between what is good, true, and beneficial from that which is bad, false and destructive. For example, they might think that there is no immaterial spiritual intelligence as the foundation of reality, and consequently (with great self assurance) do things that deliberately interfere with others accessing that crucially important truth, or prevent them from acting on it (You MUST NOT save the life of your Covid patient with Ivermectin, or we’ll fire you and strip your license to practice medicine.)
This inversion can become so pronounced that it’s believer can, literally, believe that doing the WRONG thing is the right thing to do. A Satanist, for example, wantonly takes the life of an innocent creature and makes a gift of that stolen life to his master. The worse the crime, supposedly, the greater is the value of the “gift”. Doing this to children is nearing the penultimate value of such “gifts”, but there are worse. War, mass murder and Democides, for examples.
• Theists believe that the next life is more important than this one and discount this life and don’t put in the work needed to make the world a better place; Without God man is forced to confront the issues of ethics and morality and make the hard choices; With God men outsource their morality which gives them license to commit atrocities.
To those who believe (for whatever reason) that people who sincerely believe in God don’t put in the work to make the world a better place I suggest a simple experiment.
List out a dozen or so of the most renowned people who bettered the world by means of their own hard and frequently unpaid work. This means the deliberate helping of others, and remember that I’m talking about good WORKS, not Great Fortunes. Now review the list and note how many of those beloved people believed in God and how many were atheist.
As to the other point, of how those without God are forced to confront the issues of ethics and morality so as to enable making the hard choices, I have a question. Without belief in the existence of Good how in the Hell are they going to be able to even know what ethics and morality ARE? No wonder they find the work so hard.
• Religion has led and continues to lead to the repression and death of countless people; Religious societies are unerringly repressive and regressive; State sponsored religion is a disaster
This item doesn’t belong on the list of reasons in favor of Atheism, because (at the risk of seeming repetitious) God is not Religion, and Religion is not God.
If religions have misbehaved (and I do not doubt it) then take up that complaint with the Religionists, not with the Theists.
I sure didn’t mean to. How did I do it?
• The universe has a trillion galaxies, each with 100 billion stars; The notion that one consciousness comprehends all of this and personally cares about the potentially trillion trillion souls in the galaxy is ridiculous
“Logic” is the word and procedure for how we attempt to achieve accuracy by mirroring the Universe, meaning that in attempting logic we attempt to match what the Universe is doing. If an idea or allegation of fact matches the Universe then it is logical, and if it is contradicted or disproved by the Universe then it would be considered to be illogical.
“1+1=2” and “life proliferates” are both considered to be logical statements. Paper money is as good as gold, and Males are female, are illogical.
The notion that the sheer magnitude of a trillion dillion Kazillion bits of stuff automatically PRECLUDES the existence of a caring awareness and sense of ownership of the existence of every single bit of it is simply illogical. The universe is there. Every time or anyone else sees a piece of it they are aware that they’re seeing it and that is a bit of the the universe. Disbelieving THAT is the ridiculous notion, because the disbelief is DISPROVED, personally, each and every time one sees or touch ANY of it. Dig as shallow or as deeply as you wish, when you encounter ANYTHING (large or small) why gosh and golly, there it is! Every piece of it. And you know it.
That we are less aware than God is not proof that God is less aware than us. Now THAT would be ridiculous.
• The claim that all things have a cause and the cause of the universe must be God is logically inconsistent because it does not explain what caused God.
To prove the existence of God it is not necessary to explain what caused God. Indeed, any such “explanation” would be false, on it’s face, because the statement itself presumes with no evidence that PRIME CAUSE can or should be “caused” by anything other than itself.
There is either something or nothing. Since it’s self-evident that there IS “something” then the possibility of “nothing” is absolutely impossible.
The “something”, for this reason, could only have been caused by itself, is preceded by no other cause, and is therefor God.
• Religions are benevolent organization that encourage people to be selfless givers
I think the adults in the room know from the historical record that religious organizations are not always benevolent (understatement), but on the other let’s not forget that God and Religion are NOT the same thing. I am quite certain that giving and selflessness (of the WILLING variety) are good things (in balance) and fully approved by God, and that selfish malice is not so good and generally disapproved by Him. But I don’t think we can go so far as to say that any of us know enough to proclaim with Godlike authority, that we, personally or in groups, know exactly what the balance should be. Thus we should seek God’s advice, frequently, and pay great attention to what comes back to our consciousness as an answer.
Religions have, for the most part and at the very least, kept these crucially important matters in full view of our attention so that we don’t get too wrapped up in the game of conquering other life forms for fun and profit.
• Religion has been instrumental in human progress
Hold on a minute, right there. Let’s not conflate two things that are so VERY different from each other. “religion” is a human thing. It’s trappings and dogma and practices are HUMAN manifestations even if they are of divine origin. It is by no stretch of the imagination or by fart of a lazy brain to consider religion to be on equal footing with GOD, Creator of the Universe. That would be equivalent to saying that Winky Dink is comparable to the cosmos because they’re both stars.
Religion’s instrumentality in human “progress” is highly “discussable”, mainly because not everyone sees all of it as progress. Personally I would be a lot more comfortable just stipulating that Religion has, indeed, been extremely influential in human affairs.
• Science can explain physical cause and effect but can’t explain where the physical laws came from and is unable to give meaning to our lives
In point of fact, science does NOT explain physical cause and effect, because science does not explain what either of the two things MEAN at their most fundamental level. Ultimately, all physical laws are “explained” by science as an interaction of “forces”, but science offers NO explanation of what “force” is, other than in terms which depend upon the word force itself.
That line of question and answer is en endless loop of hopelessly circular “reasoning”. Science does not explain physical cause and effect because it cannot adequately DEFINE either one. It cannot truly define what “cause” is and it cannot truly define what “effect” is, thus it cannot “explain” anything at all! It can ONLY describe what inexplicable “things” DO under various circumstances.
I can’t fairly refer to that sort of scientific advisory or “How To” manual as any kind of explanation about what it IS in the first place.
TAE Summary (assisted by the good graces and sensible discernment of our astute host) once again lays out a feast for the soul (or for the materialistic brain replete with inexplicable consciousness, as the case may be.) It is truly amazing how TAE-S manages to so fairly and dispassionately represent the views of both sides of such a passionate “discussion”. I also think that it is an excellent idea to peel this specialized topic away from the other topics at this juncture so that it doesn’t “hog the trough” from all those other important subjects of interest, and drive away people who come to TAE to talk about a wide range of other timely and important things as well.
In any case he presents a full 7 course spread of meat & potatoes (plus dessert) with something for everyone. None of that nutritionless calorie-free “Theology Lite” for him, brothers and sisters (or other genders, as the case may be), or any of the rest of us either (because theoretically, there could be incorporeal entities in attendance as well, or even God Himself.) No problem. All are welcome.
I expect to spend the better part of the rest of this day taking up almost every point TAE Summary raises on both sides, so for the sake of brevity (and I use that word with full-blown appreciation of the irony in my case) I’m not going to try to take it all on in one go. By the time I posted such a tome everyone else will have gone home for the day.
Instead I’ll try to work through the menu one bite at a time, by placing Mr Summary’s text first, in those big fancy block-quote marks, and my comments and responses in plain text paragraphs following.
Napkins in place ? Knives and forks at the ready? (especially knives)
Alright then. Let’s get started.
First off, and regardless of the fact that this first item is not first in the sequence that TAE Summary wrote, there is the matter of what exactly is meant by the word Universe, and I quote,
Given an infinity of universes one like ours had to exist and we are in it
Saying “Multiple” Universes is self contradictory. The concept of universe must either encompass the entirety of what is, or we need another (more all encompassing) word for the thing. There could not possibly be multiple universes because in that case none of them (being just one out of many) could then be the WHOLE Universe. The prefix “uni-” means ONE, the entire works, the whole enchilada. i.e. EVERYthing.
In my opinion, the existing word, “universe” works fine just as it stands. It means the aggregate of absolutely everything that does or could exist under any circumstances whatsoever. Thus it has to be COMPLETE, and there can be ONLY one of them. That’s why we call it uni-verse.
I understand what is MEANT to be meant by the ersatz term “multi-verse”. I just don’t buy into it because it is self-contradicting nonsense on its face. Those buggers stole our word ! Shame on them! Let ’em go find their OWN word. This One’s taken.
If some folks with too much time on their hands want to think that there are “multiple iterations” of our presently perceived (by us) cosmic reality then I say let them go for it. I welcome their engagement in such a pointless process (maybe it will keep Sam Harris and crew off the streets and out of trouble) but if they want to do that then they’re just going to have to come up with some other label because the word UNIVERSE is not up for grabs. It means EVERYTHING, and that’s that.
A standard practice in organized crime is the practice of keeping two sets of accounting books. One set with falsified numbers for public review and legal encounters with the authorities, and a second (secret and hidden) set of books containing the REAL numbers and documents necessary to
operate the criminal enterprise profitably.I think it highly likely (actionably certain, actually) that the current Cabalistic enemy has at least THREE sets of books and records.
The THIRD set would be necessary for tracking and COORDINATING the complex and continually evolving and adaptive relationship between the first two sets of books, records and task assignments.
This hypothetical third set of accounts and other documentation would thus be a sort of Rosetta Stone which would expose the CONNECTIONS between the faked records, the accurate records, and the actions taken to keep those two “stories” working smoothly together in a fashion that was both a pack of lies and yet completely “legal” in the ostensible sense of the word. It would also reveal and document not only who was doing what, but also WHY they were doing it and what the larger and clearly ILLEGAL evil objectives were.
As such, this postulated “Third Set of Books” would be the most sensitive and thus the most carefully hidden and guarded . . . but it would still have to be in some sort of physically tangible form because otherwise it would be impossible to run such a large, complex, and regimented globe spanning operation that has to be frequently and swiftly communicated between conspirators. I would compare such a program to “Above-Top-Secret War Plans”, because at some point even the most secret of top secrets have to be known and shared with an extensive group of people in order to keep such an enormous lock step operation all on the same page. Without writing the details down somewhere the plan would drift and generate inner conflicts between top players.
Finding such written plans, and recognizing them for what they were, might well be a nearly impossible task, but still, it would be lovely to find them. Lovely enough that it is worth a try to suss them out and lay hands on.
The technology to do so is not as esoteric as one might think. Basically, all that such a task would require is MASSIVE cross-filing (to establish “fat files” on highly linked individuals) combined with a bit of AI to figure out the character and personal relationships between those individuals, and finally a speculative analysis of HOW those particular individuals like them would have to write and keep the written materials safe for extended periods of time. Very difficult and labor-intensive, but not that different (in kind) from what all of us are doing on an inadequately tiny scale already, in our personal efforts to figure out “who dunnit”. Monumentally difficult, but not impossible. Some of the work has been done already (albeit in hurried, harried and slap-dash fashion.)
I can’t help but wonder if any White Hats are working on such a project.
@V.Arnold
I share the dismay. The violence may be necessary to forestall defeat, but it will not bring victory. The people harmed are PEOPLE, who we will need to live with when this war is over.
Ah Ha! So THAT’s how to invoke the big close-quote character. Thank you.
In the real/perfect world, It’s easier to see/detect/recognize/realize/critical thinking/ truth if there is no Manipulation”
Man, you can sure say that again! And if there are tickets to such a place please sign me up.
Meanwhile I think we’re stuck with hiking there the hard way, one step at a time, by learning and practicing (as best we can mange with study and practice) how to de-manipulate this marketplace of manipulation one pack of lies at a time, replacing lies with truths every place we find them them and every chance we get.Some videos are best served with no introduction, other than to say that this 13 minute 25 second piece of straight-up factual history is entertaining, uplifting, and spot-on-the-mark relevant to our recent conversations.
link: https://youtu.be/_M89HC9er74Belief is a weird and wonderful thing. We all do it, because we have to. There’s no alternative other than believing something else, and then Bam! there you are believing. In other words, we MUST believe certain things in order to even exist.
You must, for example, believe that there’s going to be solid ground under your feet before you can take a step in any direction. If you don’t BELIEVE that there is, then you won’t stake that step. Blindfold some poor sucker, stand him on the edge of the Grand Canyon, and invite him to take a nice long step in the direction of his choice. Do ya think he’ll do it?
If a biologist did not believe what his eyes showed him, would there be any point in his peering into the microscope? How about walking through a doorway? Could you do it if you could not believe the door was there?
So, yeah. We believe stuff. The only other option would be the total paralysis brought about by total indecision.
If you’re not quite sure what it is that you believe then there is an easy way to TEST for its existence. The test consists of observing activity. The TEST of belief is ACTION. Examination of what was actually done will instantly reveal what was actually believed at the time that it was.
A lot of people however (most or all of them, I reckon) say that they believe or disbelieve (same action, opposite polarity) in all sorts of various but certain things, all the time, when in fact they don’t REALLY believe any of those things at all. And the opposite is equally true. For a variety of reasons people FREQUENTLY pretend (by word and deed) to DISBELIEVE things that they know damned well are perfectly true. Yup, they do it all the time, as automatically as breathing.
For this reason, when dealing with humans it is highly advisable to be constantly alert to the possibility that they are LYING. People lie A LOT, both to themselves and to others. And that is PRECISELY what is doing them in. I don’t mean to be harsh, but that’s just the fact Jack. The world is awash in lies, and all of those lies have two things in common. They’re all untrue and they will all fail.
Each and every lie shares those two characteristics with all other lies: It is contrary to what is true (and thereby contrary to how the world causally works,) and will therefore fail when put into practice. Always. Not “some of the time” fail. ALWAYS fail.
I’m sure can see the problem here. There is a very distinct and highly destructive SINCERITY problem at the bottom of all this failure. There is a enormous FUBAR going on when it comes to what people say they believe, in comparison to what they demonstrate they believe. In short, there is a whole lot of lyin’ going on. Too much.
The sincerity of beliefs is revealed in actions. Period. Actions don’t merely speak louder than words. They’re the only voice in the room. Words can at best only represent actions abstractly. That statement is very, very, very, very, VERY true. It is true for me, for thee, and for everybody else, too. No escape hatch for anybody. Of course communicating is, in itself, a type of action, and a crucially important action at that. The action of speaking truth, and likewise the speaking of lies, makes a world of difference in the production of results.
Which brings us around to the subject of VALIDITY, which is to say is the believed fact a TRUE fact? Distinguishing the truthfulness of a fact (or belief in it) is also straightforward. Veracity is automatically tested by the most impartial, implacable and dependable of all possible judges: results. You get what you get and no matter what anybody SAYS about it, it’s still what you got.
The VALIDITY of belief is revealed by effect. In other words, when a belief is acted upon, does it produce the expected, desired and predictable result that the operator believed it would. ….. or not? A valid action produces a valid result. Always. This factual statement about fact is ALSO very very (etc) true.
Of course, and as we all know and experience on a regular basis, there are a LOT of people stumbling around in a disabled mental state of NOT KNOWING what the Hell they believe. They think and they act exactly as if they did not know or believe anything about what was true and what wasn’t.
Nowhere is this more apparent and consequential than in the matter of the existence of a spiritual (non material) Aware and Interactively Purposeful Creator of Reality.
It’s kinda the most important thing that that there is, because you ARE consciously aware, buddy, and so that question IS being answered…… by he individual…… at all times and it simply CAN NOT be avoided. You and I ARE answering, as we speak, and whether we deliberately want to or not. That revelation of personal belief (one way or the other) is literally unavoidable (although many people try mightily to do so.)
Belief (or disbelief) in the reality of an omnipotent creator of the world is a test that is determined solely and only by ACTION. Does one BEHAVE and DO in a manner that is consistent with actually knowing and believing in the existence of an omnipotent spiritual Creator? Yes or no?
No need to answer. Your actions have already done so for you. They constantly give mute testimony to what you ACTUALLY believed at the time of that you acted. No excuse or exculpatory explanation possible can roll back the clock or change the now immutable fact that the deed is done.
In other words, we can ONLY move forward, and we MUST move forward, and we DO only move forward, BUT (that being the case) it would probably be a good idea, in future, to stick to the truth and avoid lies (including one’s own, both known and side-stepped).
All actions produce results (we call them consequences when the stupid action turns out badly), which can be observed in either case.
Action based on truth produces the expected, desired and predicted result, whereas actions based on lies don’t. They produce failure instead, in fact that’s one of the main ways that we determine whether something is true or false in the first place. We see (or not) and believe (or not) whether it works (or not.)
Now obviously (and it does seem like a complete no-brainer to me) the sensible course of action would be to at least make an earnest effort to proceed in the direction of true stuff rather than false stuff.
If you do that, if you insist upon truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth then you are at least giving yourself a fighting chance at being right often enough to do get the right things right (enough) to succeed and survive to acceptable standards. And you will also discover, sooner or later, that such a path, the way to truth, is also the pathway to God. It can be quite an astonishingly pleasant realization when that realization dawns.
Humans have been trying to fix things with real bombs for hundreds of years (maybe longer) and it worked for shit. The Baddies just got more powerful, and worse, and so did their actions against us.
Then someone came up with the idea of trying to fix things with truth. Nothing too fancy. Just plain old, unadulterated factual information, shared with each other. Surprisingly, this bright new idea seems to be working even better than hoped for. The baddies are now running scared and in their rising panic are making bigger and ever more flamboyantly obvious mistakes which only serve to make more people more aware (and pissed off) of how bad the baddies have been. Our side’s ranks increase by the millions per day, and the Bad Guys lose ground and power at a commensurate rate.
@Celticbiker exhorts us to go back to the first method. Now why in the Hell would someone want us to switch from a winning strategy back to a losing one? Beats me. Maybe we should ask him (or his handlers).While we were engrossed in debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin the following news item managed to be semi-released to a roar of deafening silence. https://youtu.be/FnvwOjlpFmU .
The source is Michael Yon, who has a world renowned record for zero-bullshit accuracy. Essentially, for the past couple of years the US Govt has been operating underage prison camps, populated by THOUSANDS of parent-separated children, from which children are delivered in groups of 5 to 10 to wealthy households in elite neighborhoods throughout the United States.
These commercial sex & slavery operations are an open secret where they’re located in re-purposed Walmarts in financially strapped (and economically desperate) communities where so many stores were closed and virtually abandoned due to lockdown induced unemployment and local recession.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for these human trafficking hell-holes to not be anything less than fully known and understood by ALL levels of “law enforcement” , utilities services, commercial supply and government agency from the local level all the way up to the Governor’s Office in every single place where this is going on.
THOUSANDS of children, people. It’s operating NOW. This is light years beyond shameful.
@MichaelReid
How about the position:
we do not know if there is “God”
Since we do not know
How about the position:
We will not invent ideas about “God”That position would be completely reasonable to take if one did, indeed, not know. But there are some (maybe even most) have come to know that there is “God”. Getting to that position is not necessarily fast or easy (understatement) but once you DO know, well, you cannot very easily un-know it. It is more certain than literally everything (and anything) else that could possibly supplant it.
Admittedly, a lot of people have invented a lot of ideas, about what God might imaginably be. such invention and speculation is worlds apart from discovering what God is.The only way that I could parse this out is with a sort of “line item” approach. Below is the complete word-for-word rendition of the last comment that you addressed to me. Your words are enclosed by brackets and quote marks, like this : [“ your words “] . My replies to what you wrote in each bracketed section are written below the relevant section, before moving on to the next, in turn, until I’ve covered the whole thing. Let’s get started.
[“How can you be wrong about a belief?”]
When a belief is discordant from what actually “is” (in other words, different from truth) then one can say either that the belief is wrong or that the person believing it is “wrong”. The difference is virtually “the same difference”, as the old idiom goes, which is to say that it means nearly the same thing either way. The point is that accordance with truth = right, and discordance from truth = wrong.
An interesting corollary to this point is that the veracity of an asserted or “believed” fact is independent of how many people “believe” it. Everyone or no one believing in something has absolutely no bearing on whether it is true or not.
[“It is a belief because there is no scientific proof ……”]
All so-called “scientific proof” rests absolutely and intractably on the foundation of belief. A humorously funny way of saying that is, “Everybody has to believe in something, and I believe that I’m looking at proof.” Like Max Planck (and many others) have said, there is simply no getting around it. There has to be awareness BEFORE there can be awareness of evidence.
By the way, that also happens to be a “First Principles” axiom of scientific thought and procedure, and is therefore itself strong evidence of the primordial existence an aware God. If you cannot (or “will” not) grasp or accept such a fundamentally self-evident fact then there very little no point in attempting to understand the scientific method, and no point at all in arguing with me.
[“…… it is all made up and in your head.”]
Why, thank you, but I’m afraid that I am FAR too stupid to make up that much stuff, or fit it into my head.
[“You are now accusing me “]
Since you didn’t finish the phrase or state what it was you thought I was accusing you of then there is no way I can either admit or deny it definitively. Let me try a different approach. If it was a true accusation then I admit it, and if it was a false accusation then I deny it. How’s that?
[“The tiniest minority who are the MOST wrong about it
which I assume includes me, ………..”]You assume incorrectly. I do NOT consider you to be anywhere even close to that tiniest minority of evil God haters. I currently place you in the category of loudly assertive self identifying “atheists” who place the blame for their cognitive failures and lack of understanding mostly or only upon others.
[“ ………… of insisting upon being GIVEN total control over the lives, thoughts and very existence of those people who are the most right. Absolute lie.”]
I don’t think that you actually believe that I’m a liar. I do think that the angry aggressive language is being used as a means to avoid the discomforting thought that I am making some very good points which you can not satisfactorily disprove or dismiss (because they are true.)
[“What is wrong with you religious zealots,………..”]
I’m not at all religious. Although I find a tremendous amount to admire and agree with in most religions, and understand quite extensively both their vital importance AND and their many failings. I’m also not a zealot, and am perfectly willing to stop talking to you about these things whenever you call a stop.
[“………….you are accusing me of exactly what you are doing, like the Democrats accusing Trump.”]
I still can’t figure out just what it is that you think I’m accusing you of. If you want me to stop doing something then first you’ve got to tell me what it is. Spell out what it is so that I know what to cease and desist.
And what does Trump have to do with any of this? Discussion of Trump is just too far into the weeds for me in this conversation, and I’m not interested.[“You have no tolerance, all you are showing me is that your ego cannot cope with a different viewpoint, a different belief, you have to have everybody else thinking your way or they are the enemy.”]
I’m tolerant enough to continue talking to you in a civilized tone. I don’t view you as an enemy. You have the right to be wrong, just as I have the right to say so, and why it is so. I simply don’t get how you equate my disagreement with your erroneous idea somehow (and thereby) equates with me thinking that “everybody” has to see things my way. I am simply telling you true things. That’s it and that’s all.
[“You mentioned in an earlier post that you thought we were “allies”, as if we were conspiring against some enemy. But now I understand, we are no longer allies, I am the enemy, because I do not believe what you believe about the existence of and communication with your God.”]
I thought then, and I still think now, that we are allies in a fight against a common enemy.
[“We are now enemies because you have no tolerance,……..”]
We are not enemies, but I’m willing to tolerate your thinking so.
[“you have no humility in your thoughts,”]
Man, oh man, Aspnaz, if you could see inside my mind for even a moment you would instantly know how monumentally untrue and unfair that charge is.
[“……….you are the authoritarian.”]
I am not.
[“You do not have the grace to recognize others as your equal, as people with their own rights to their own beliefs.”]
You are my equal, at the very least, and have every right to your own beliefs. You also have the right to revise your beliefs and have new ones which are in closer alignment with the world as it actually is, and thereby survive more successfully.
A 19 year old drunken sailor stumbled around the streets of Athens one afternoon a long time ago, accosting complete strangers with the earnest and heartfelt question, “Is there a God?” I got many smiles, a few alarmed disengagements, and no answers.
So I asked myself, Is there a God? What’s with all of this “world” that I’m surrounded by ? (What even IS it ?). In other words, here I am. I find myself in a “here” and I’m desperate to know what in the Hell is going ON around here?”
I gathered every scrap of observation that I could lay my hands on, and thought about it really hard for many years and the answer I came up with was yes there is God, assuredly so, and anyone can connect with him.
Whoa! Is that TRUE? Well, it sure seems to me to be true. I’ve re-thunk and tested it every which way that I could think of and I keep coming up with same answer. Yes, there is a God. In fact, ultimately, that’s ALL that there is.
But, on the other hand, I’m just an ignorant dummy (maybe even crazy) so there’s the possibility that I’m really wrong about that. I better go find out what other people think.
It turns out that upon CLOSE inspection the overwhelming majority of EVERYBODY knows (or at least acknowledges as fact or probable fact), that there is a God who they could (if they chose) directly interact with in one way or another (prayer being the most common). This vast majority includes all of the greatest minds and heroes of human history going back as far as history goes. [note: The degree to which these people manifest their beliefs through their actions, however, varies quite a bit.]
There were and are, of course, people who just outright disagree, usually because they didn’t get something that they wanted or were betrayed by some liar. These folks assert that there is no God, and therefore they’re free to do anything and everything that they want to even when they know that God would say no to the thing that they want to do.
The minority that assert this viewpoint actively (atheists) is pretty small, but there is minority among them that is even smaller that that. There is a tiny collection of those who are absolutely dedicated to the proposition that not only is there no God, but that there is no immaterial spirit any other kind either, of any kind whatsoever. Indeed, they think this so strongly that they PUNISH (do bad things to) all of those who know or behave in a manner which demonstrates earnest BELIEF in the existence of God.
Do you see how nutty it’s starting to get about this REALLY important question? The tiniest minority who are the MOST wrong about it are insisting upon being GIVEN total control over the lives, thoughts and very existence of those people who are the most right. And , furthermore, upon whom the tiny minority depends for literally EVERYTHING because those puny few in the smallest minority can do literally NOTHING for themselves.
Very few people, therefore, agree with the position that there is no God or non-material spirit. It takes dangerously high levels of pride and ego to take a FIRM position on the NON existence of the only thing that truly DOES exist. That’s why Hard Core true-to-the-end atheists are very very rare indeed. Just check out the mindsets in your nearest foxhole or natural disaster.
So, yeah, the number of people who take a firm stand against God is a very small MINORITY, but among that minority rank one will find virtually all of human history’s most catastrophic failures and worst human monsters (along with a whole bunch of nameless suckers and mean idiots). In recent memory the Marxist Bolsheviks springs to mind. They took it so far as to make the earnest demonstration of sincere belief in God punishable, not only in a thousand different off-the-books ways, but even illegal by statutory law in some cases.
Like now.
So is there a God or isn’t there? Examine the facts, make your decision, and then start acting that way. Choose wisely, because your answer determines your fate.
Every time I think that I’ve reached max cynicism something like the following news item shocks me. Secret Concentration camps imprisoning thousands of children, no parents, under aggressive security, transported in groups of 5 to 10 kids, air transported and delivered to upscale homes in affluent areas around the country. Like some kind of Depraved Amazon Prime. All secret. Ongoing for YEARS. Run by the US Government. link: https://youtu.be/FnvwOjlpFmU
I’ll grant you this, you’re persistent.
Awright, let’s first take up the logical fallacy that’s glaring into my face: The Straw Man (always a favorite.)
First you sort of gradually worked up to the presumptive conclusion that I harbor a human-centric viewpoint of the Universe. I don’t know quite how you got to that place, but once you built that particular straw man and identified me as being him, you then proceeded to kick the stuffings out of the straw man. Nice try, if no one notices that I am not he, and that I do NOT envision a human-centric paradigm of the Universe.
I presently have a God-centric conception because although there is obviously a God I have no idea
why God made humans other than the OBVIOUS one. He must have WANTED to create humans because here we are. And he must love us a LOT because look at the work invested and the horrible pain he experiences just to keep the project going despite all of the problems. Maybe one day he’ll explain it to me in greater detail but until then I have to stick with the notion I have now : A GOD-centric paradigm, with lots and lots of of irrepressible living things in the mix, for no other reason that he wanted to.I strongly suspect that the cosmos is chock-a-block with life of all sorts, filling dimensions beyond my ken, but that’s just a scientific wild assed guess.
Perhaps coincidentally, my understanding from the historical record is that Planck thought of God in those general terms as well. An intelligence demonstrably capable of creating the Universe should have no problem listening talking, and replying to any and all individual parts of it, which would of course would include people, to the extent that those people are willing to listen, talk and reply to him in return.
The catch seems to be that we have the free will to not do so, if we so inadvisably choose to attempt life without help and guidance from the only entity capable of doing it successfully.
I speak to and listen to God as much as I am able. I know that it’s God because he’s immeasurably smarter and nicer than I am. I suspect he’s had a hand in my continuing to talk to you despite the repeated ridicule, invalidation and snarky smoke you keep throwing at me. From that I assume that he sees some value in helping your sorry ass. God only knows why, but like I said, he’s a lot smarter and nicer than me.
One day people will work out why the brain needs to believe that it is in contact with the creator, then they will know why you think the way you do. Until that time; enjoy.
The magnitude of the unsupported assumption at the absolute foundation of your premise (as expressed above) is just marvelous to behold. Think of Wile E Coyote suspended by nothing, out there in mid air, and then looking down.
I’m not trying to make fun of you, I’m telling you that you are FUNDAMENTALLY mistaken on the key point.
Your whole argument teeters on the PRESUMPTION, completely (as in one HUNDRED percent) devoid of even the flimsiest evidence that conscious awareness arises from some sleight-of-hand arrangement of MATERIAL in a brain. It just ain’t so, despite the fact that your heavily propaganda driven education taught you otherwise.
No less of an intellectual and scientific giant than Max Planck was quite unambiguous about that point, and since the day he said it NO ONE has presented evidence to the contrary. Planck said, “I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”
He also concluded that consciousness could not possibly arise FROM matter because, ““As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clearheaded science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about the atoms this much: There is no matter as such! All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. . . . We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.”
I’m no Max Planck, but I have come to the same conclusion ( CONCLUSION FROM EVIDENCE, Aspnaz, not from acceptance of some second-hand “religious faith”)
So who’s gone cuckoo? Two guys who spent their lifetimes in earnest work using the scientific method, or one guy who still believes the bullshit fed to him by bored grammar school biology class teachers and Popular Psychology magazine?
I cannot take the steps for you that you must take. I can describe the steps, and I am willing to do so, but it remains for you to take the steps and consequently know what they reveal. Probably the first step is to understand that the things I write here on TAE (and elsewhere in less “edited for public consumption” format) are honest, well intended, and as understandably accurate as I can make them. If I do an INADEQUATE job of it, well that flaw is on me. But ascribing bad intentions, deliberate deceit or falsehoods where none exist, well that’s on you.
To say it in the simplest and most personally verifiable terms, the world that you are consciously aware of, and which follows the laws of physics as best we know them (which isn’t very good, by the way), does not derive from materiality arranged in such a way as to produce awareness. It is, IN FACT, the other way around. The world (if I might save time and effort by quoting myself) is the purposefully designed and created product of a singularly supreme intelligence who is both aware and willing to communicate with you in terms that you are able to understand and accept.
I’m not JC or anyone even remotely close to it, but I daresay that I am somewhat more aware than you are at present. That’s due to having spent more than 70 years DILIGENTLY working to discover what the hell was all around me and what the fuck was going on in this apparently crazy world. You are significantly smarter than me (IQ wise) and so should be able to arrive at the same understanding in far less time IF you don’t let your brains, prejudices and egoic feelings become too much of a barrier.
I think one of the reasons you take so many pot shots at me is that it rankles you to see a lesser intellect achieve a higher level of overall comprehension of what is actually going on. Don’t let that bother you, man, I had half a century head start and am just barely beginning to wrap my wits around it even now.
The recent bullshit and distractions by @citizenx, @celticbiker, and @aspnaz provide an unexpectedly fortunate illustration of the historic taxonomy of the Cabal. And by the way, as I have said before, it’s a lot of fun for me (and soothing to my soul) to say simple (but ugly) stuff using complex (but pretty) words.
But this is an important point and so I’ll re-state the straight facts in simple terms. As the Cabal loses ground and position it will sacrifice it’s layers of minions one layer at a time, both as a distractive tactic (i.e. throwing ostensible allies to the wolves ) and as a means of providing defensive rear-guard cover for their retreat.
The fact that the Jewish hierarchy is now being openly sacrificed on the altar of public opinion is a strong sign of just such an accelerating retreat, to heretofore unassailled defensive positions. In other words, the Jews are being force marched out into open battle to decimated, as cover, so that their master can scuttle further back under a rock somewhere in the confusion
After the “Jewish” defeat (and they are NOT actually Abrahamic Semites, by the way) will come the much more deeply hidden and entrenched Dynastic Royal “blood lines” defeat, and after them perhaps an off-world “alien” or two.
Only THEN will we arrive at the REAL battleground, which as many of you know is the almost entirely non-corporeal ( but ultra “real”) war in the more advanced and dangerous spiritual realm, that has been raging well beyond homo sapiens’ consciousness for quite some time.
Meanwhile, well meaning (for the most part) jerks like aspnaz are just going to have to play catch up. There is too much urgency and too little time to waste on their short-span yammering. They’ll eventually understand, once they face and overcome the spiritual “cowardice” which they so bombastically project upon others.
To mangle a line from Bobby Frost, The world is many layers deep, and miles to go before we sleep.
DBS is simply a coward, he says he knows there is a cabal, he says the Jews are certainly in there and near the front, but he knows it’s not the Jews …. he does not tell us how he knows it is not the Jews, he just knows because in polite society everybody knows that the Jews are the victims. Cowards live in polite society and DBS is slap bang in the middle of polite society, I am amazed he didn’t take the Covid shot.”
Up ’til now I held a fairly high opinion of your opinion, but not any more. Your line of reasoning isn’t just not a line, it’s not even reasoning. How stupid of you to employ such overtly flawed thinking to insult an ally with faulty “reasoning” for no discernable reason except masturbating your own ego.
Ah, well, that sort of thing does happen when trying to converse with modern children such as yourself who have been educated since their over indulgent youth to believe that history began on the day they were born.
Just for the record (and do try to remember this in your foreshortened version of human events), the basis for my knowing that the source of the Cabal is not the “Jooze!” is that historical lineage of the problem predates that unfortunate tribe of sheep diddlers by at LEAST 8 thousand years.
In any case, you and I are not going to argue about this truly minor point. In fact, we’re not going to argue about anything at all until you grow up and apologize. Kindly take your premature opinion, wrap it up in the gauntlet you’re trying to goad me with, and deposit in the expected body cavity to keep your brain and @citizenx company.
The small, manipulative, old, dog who you’re “sitting” appears to be fully trained and apprenticed and now requires just one more qualifying standard to be met before promotion to higher office . Is the pathologically dependent selfish little darling EVIL? If so then it looks like doggie dearest is ready for appointment to the highest levels of national government.
But if just a another spoiled old sweetie pie then there are still plenty of openings in the Gen Pop, Seniors Division.
Alright, then. Following my own advice I shall try to not further derange someone who I will probably (though it is at the moment hard to imagine why) want to talk to in the future. Ta ta for now, Bub.
@thomasjjkenny
Yeah, it does, and that discernment can often be a tough one to call. Details and accuracy help.
Vaya con Dios, @phoenixvoice . You are the champion making truth prevail, so win.
Lest we forget the humanity of those fighting on the other side: https://www.rt.com/russia/581056-russian-conscript-fighting-ukraine/
Maybe the reason the government (and DOJ in particular at present) keeps doing the same flamboyantly obvious self-incriminating things in full public view, with television coverage, over and over and over again ceaselessly, is the off chance that some catatonic comatose deaf-mute SOMEWHERE has not yet received the message that the government and all of its servants are CORRUPT beyond all possibility of redemption, and are committing random acts of wanton murder on the smallest and largest scale, as we speak.
The time to correct that situation is upon us. Compliant participation in evil (of any and every kind, both large AND small), or steadfast refusal to comply with evil rules and directives, are the sole valid declaration of allegiance.
We passed the point of no return quite a while back. Serve the truth or be accomplice to Evil. There is no middle ground.
I’m directing this reply to @citizenx because he just took a completely unprovoked personal shot at me last evening, but I probably shouldn’t single him out because it’s advice that many of us emotional types could also chew on thoughtfully.
Anger is an emotion that is on its way to somewhere else.
Basically anger is just a big blustering threat designed to make the weaker of the combatants to come to his senses and re-think the situation before attacking a stronger foe. The primal forces that rage stirs up can be useful when well managed, but hot blood is usually NOT well managed because anger has that built-in flaw. It is so ferociously volatile and generalized that it tends to strike out at anything that moves. Try de-fusing a domestic dispute if you don’t believe me. Good way to get your ass kicked by BOTH of the warring parties. In other words, anger is easily misdirected onto WRONG targets, which is a fact well known and frequently used by our enemy.
So you (and me, and others from time to time) got angry. That’s fine. There’s plenty to be angry about. But to do any good with that anger it needs to be AIMED at the correct target, which I’m fairly sure is NOT me at the moment.
Celtic biker was mis-directing his anger when he threatened a fellow commentator with a punch in the face, and you are wrong-targeting me in calling me a fucking coward who needs to grow a pair. Right anger, wrong target.
I aim to please around this joint. You aim too, please.
Regarding your vicious belligerence toward other commenters here. Don’t you think it’s time to tone it down?
I know that from time to time (and more often recently) we are all stunned and dismayed by the sheer number and magnitude of the crises that assail us.
But I remind myself that the REASON we’re seeing so many of these horrifying things all at once just now and in such staggering volume is simply that THESE THINGS (AND EVEN WORSE) HAVE ALWAYS EXISTED, BUT WITH THE IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE NOW BEING THAT WE CAN FINALLY SEE THEM AND SHARE THEM BY TELLING OTHERS ABOUT WHAT WE SEE, INSTEAD OF BEING BLIND OF THE FACTS AND REMAINING SILENT.
What has changed is that “back in the day”, you would never have been told or allowed to know or share that such mind shattering evil even existed as a conscious intention, much less be the real and actual, fully operational world-wide standard operating procedure for an entire class of Rulers whose only PRODUCT, for hundreds (if not thousands) of years has been NOTHING other than dead human beings. In other words, DEAD PEOPLE is their product. That’s what they make for a living, and these Rulers (and inheriting descendants) have been RULING the world for perhaps thousands of years.
The historical villains of past generations from Caligula and Genghis Khan, to Hitler or Klaus Schwab, were NOT the result of organic development through some complex natural process like evolution or psychology. Them and all other mass killers were nurtured to full blossom and fruit by a so-called “civilization” that was fucking PREDICATED upon crime, slavery, lethal force and wholesale killing, PURPOSEFULLY, and then RUN by a generationally ongoing collaboration of Dynastic rulers numbering in the scores, not millions, of individuals. There could (I suppose) be aliens or devils behind them, but regardless of that needless speculation it still remains true that there is simply no way possible (literally NOT mathematically possible) for it to have been any other way than planned, adjusted and coordinated as the ages rolled forward, based on obvious publicly available facts. Just read the damn history books in any town Library.
These far scattered facts have been aggregated, analyzed and known to an extremely tiny fringe of monumentally courageous people for many many years. The lights of their lamps were never fully extinguished. But it is only NOW that such things can be (and ARE) beginning to be BROADLY shared and discussed. Always before, such dark truths were being censored, lied about, hidden, suppressed and “murdered away” so ruthlessly, thoroughly and effectively that the vast VAST majority of victims simply could not and did not have even the slightest inkling that those tangible realities even existed.
That near total darkness and muffled silence is over with. The subject matter IS out in the open. FULL public visibility is well under way, and speeding up fast.
These heretofore unknowing people now DO know (or at least they are STARTING to become aware of) facts that they did not previously know or even suspect.
Not only does this measurable phenomenon PROVE that we are winning. It proves that the Grand Finale is VERY very close at hand……… because expansion of shared knowledge is an EXPONENTIAL function. Word of mouth is a chain reaction whose RATE of speeding up speeds up and then speeds up faster that that.
No matter how good you are at math, and no matter how fast your synapses snap, the entire last HALF of the progressive expansion takes place in a fraction of time so short that it is impossible to calculate. A femtosecond is far too lengthy to measure the briefness.
For all practical purposes the last HALF of the expansion will be instantaneous, but believe you me, the spreading of the message gets fast enough for all practical purposes long long LONG before that.
In fact, I’m going to go way out on a limb right now and declare that we are already IN that stage, the stage which just precedes that final instant. Shared knowledge about previous secrets and ignorances is expanding faster than anyone can keep up with already. It is spreading even faster as we speak and spreading faster than that by tomorrow. You get the idea.
Elected officials and other nationally recognized figures are presently conversing in plain English, in the US Congress fer cryin’ out loud, about Alien UFO’s and Satanic child sacrifice! How over the top does this unprecedented display need to get ? I really do not think that it’s going to require the Pope eating a child on public television before practically EVERYBODY simply knows that these previously ultra-hidden topics are now just common conversation on public platforms around the world.
I believe (based on evidence and calculation) that we are now officially into the EXPLOSION phase of disclosures of unsuspected secrets about unguessably hidden (and totally evil) activities. Don’t even bother to think about strapping in. It’s way too late for that.
Just aim for Truth and go toward the Good and I think that we’ll all be relatively okay.
If Lockheed-Martin has indeed spent 1.7 TRILLION dollars on the F-35 then that would mean that a single project of a single department of a single commercial company has consumed more money than the amount spent by entire INDUSTRIES which have served mankind since records were kept. And I’m not talking about puny little boutique industries either. I’m comparing the expenditure on that one stupidly useless airplane to all of the money every spent within known history on things like wheel making, fire making, gardening and the domestication of animals.
1.7 TRILLION is an almost incomprehensibly enormous amount of money. It’s enough to stuff a C-note into the pocket of every human being who has ever lived.
No wonder they’re organizing crime toward it’s penultimate goal of TOTAL government. They think that by TAKING everything that they will consequently GET everything. Idiots! I must assume that they have overlooked the fact that end result of taking everything is that there is nothing left, and therefore no way to get any more (because anyone even remotely capable of making more has already been taken and no longer exists).
@DrD From later yesterday,
“All the people in all religions all disagree with their own religion’s belief on something, or most things.”
Ahh! So I’m not the only one using advanced fuzzy logic to zero in on stuff that’s above my pay grade, by sifting through the observations and answers of other people who are in more or less the same deficient condition. The craziest thing about it is that the method seems to work pretty well, depending largely upon how many “semi-certain maybes” you can keep spinning up there in the noggin at the same time.
It’s a lot like what we’re running into with the Cabal thing. Does a truly organized card carrying Cabal exist ? (most now agree that it does), but if it does then who is at the bottom of it all? @Celticbiker says it’s the Jooze (who undeniably do play a leading role) but there’s also a whole gaggle of others who swear it’s some other nefarious source like Free Masons, CIA, little green men or the Devil himself.
I sure dunno……. but I’m closing in on it. It all depends on if I can just get a couple more plates spinning before my whole cognitive contraption collapses on-stage like a grade B fill-in act on the Ed Sullivan Show.
