phoenixvoice

 
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  • in reply to: Debt Rattle August 4 2022 #112823
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Regarding the wooden statue…
    I am amazed and impressed by the detail — I had no idea that there were artisans 4500 years ago capable of this skill — accurate portrayal in physical media.
    As a child and teen I was inducted into the “cult of progress” by both public education and religious training. I believed that humans were gaining in abilities and philosophy over time. The older I get the more I learn that “there is no new thing under the sun” — humans are humans, now, a few generations back, and millennia ago. All that has changed are details of technology.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle August 1 2022 #112611
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Dr D:
    “Corporations” shouldn’t really exist. Back in 1789, to incorporate you needed an act of congress who would ask “Why should we do this? What are you going to provide for and serve the people of Maryland in return?” Because they lived under the East India and Hudson Bay companies who had standing armies like today’s companies do.

    I agree. I have long pondered the problems of our economic system, and noticed that many fundamental problems find their source in corporate bodies. I have argued this with my spouse, who has argued in knee-jerk fashion that the right to own/run a business includes the right to incorporate. (He and I usually see eye to eye…but we took our own paths to get there, so there is variation in the details.) And I emphatically disagreed with him — because corporations are created by permission of the state. I’ve owned a tiny corporation in part or in whole for nearly 20 years…and every year I must pay a small fee and file an “annual report” with the state or face administrative dissolution.

    A corporation is a privilege, not a right. As a privilege, the permissions granted have varied over the decades. The state has the ability to revoke the privilege. Personally, I’m curious about what might happen if corporations had to either dissolve or convert to “workers coop” type entities, including ESOPs, self-management (i.e. Holacracy, etc.). Large sole proprietorships and partnerships would still be viable business forms, but, oh, yeah, they lack the liability shield for owners…..

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 21 2022 #111876
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    I don’t like concocting “conspiracy theories” when I have little evidence that they exist. Very often, the triangle fractal from the other day is a better explanation for seemingly coordinated events than some all-encompassing, all-powerful, top-down conspiracy.

    However…thought experiments can be useful tools for discovering data and evidence that might be otherwise overlooked.

    So…

    IF we posit that “cloud seeding” is a known technology, in use for decades, but mostly out of the public’s awareness….
    And IF the WEFfers are planning to use Climate Change (TM) to scare the masses into giving control to the WEFfers….
    It isn’t a very far leap to suppose that THEN there is a conspiracy to seed clouds to drop the bulk of their rain before it reaches the Colorado and Rhine river basins, causing drought.

    Now…
    This is NOT a certainty. And it would be wise to find out if there is any evidence that this mal-intentioned seeding is occurring, because droughts come and go, and the low water on these river basins could well be entirely due to natural processes and natural cycles — or even unintended consequences of human actions — humans usually don’t fully comprehend the outcomes of their actions, especially when they act in concert.

    However…
    This IS a possibility, in that the technology exists to bring it about.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 19 2022 #111752
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    This is from link shared by oroboros:
    “ University of Kansas Associate Professor Jennifer Raff argued in a paper, “Origin: A Genetic History of the Americas,” that there are “no neat divisions between physically or genetically ‘male’ or ‘female’ individuals.””

    In the vast majority of humans there ARE “neat divisions,” both physically and genetically between males and females. There is a tiny minority where these physical and/or genetic traits are mixed. Why are we trying to pay homage to the preferred pronouns of deceased people? Especially long deceased about whom we know nothing – except maybe their physical/genetic traits, including gender and “race”? Isn’t it equivalently disrespectful to avoid gendering after death someone who in life was clearly male or female? Or to avoid information about physical appearance that corresponds to the concept of “race.”

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 17 2022 #111692
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    I believe that “psychosis” should generally be appended to “mass formation” because otherwise it is not clear from the words “mass” and “formation” alone what is being discussed. “Mass formation” by itself sounds like a conglomeration of clouds.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 17 2022 #111689
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    “ . Even in Texas, which could be considered the world’s 10th-largest economy by GDP, the independent energy grid is so fragile that power companies are remotely turning down people’s home thermostats to save on energy supply.”

    The author must be mistaken…right now the power companies in Texas would be turning thermostats UP, not DOWN to save on energy….

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 15 2022 #111594
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    @ Dr D
    “ We don’t provide free services UNLESS you are poor. In which case you get all the care you want. It’s only if you’re productive that you can’t get care.”
    I take exception with that comment. People who are in poverty are very often very productive — they just don’t receive much monetary compensation for all of their productivity.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 15 2022 #111593
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    I remember back when I was Mormon that I always felt a little uneasy about the religion’s emphasis on obedience as a virtue. Thanks to Red for mentioning the Eichmann quote. It goes a long ways towards explaining my unease with the concept of obedience.

    I think I’m better of with: “To thine own self be true.” (Thank you Shakespeare.)

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 15 2022 #111592
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    US Constitution racist/sexist…
    I think that it is a glass half-full or half empty proposition.
    To those who see everything through the lens of racism and sexism, the fact that slaves were counted as 3/5 of a person and that women did not vote…sure, the document contains some racism/sexism. For that matter, it would be difficult to find documents and/or practices from the late 18th century that are not “racist” nor “sexist” based on current standards (especially if the new “woke” standards are the yardstick.)
    However, the US Constitution was grounded in the principles of the Enlightenment, and it could be easily argued that emancipation and women’s suffrage eventually came about because of the cultural seeds sown by the Enlightenment, and that the US Constitution was a remarkable document because it allowed for the possibility of such changes to be wrought when the country was ready for them. (Most late 18th century folks were not ready.)

    The answers of the survey have little relation to the US Constitution, but provide insight into the thought patterns of the respondents.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 15 2022 #111590
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    I think that the “normalized materials “ graph needs more background information.

    For solar PV, it is including concrete…um…is that concrete for installations that are embedded in concrete? For the plant that made the PV? Rooftop Solar seldom involves concrete.

    Hydro…over how many years is the electrical generation being counted?

    Natural gas…is it counting only the materials for the nat gas plant, or also counting all of the resources/materials used to extract, store, and transport the nat gas?

    And so forth.

    There is value in creating something that passively generates electricity/energy year after year with few inputs and/or little maintenance after it is built. This value goes beyond monetary costs or resources used. (Note: electric cars do not passively generate electricity/energy…no, not even with energy recapture from braking.)

    When I had solar panels put on my roof, I was better off financially than I have now been for the past decade. When I ran the figures before getting the PV system, I determined that economically, it would be a wash for me — I would not save any significant money on my power bill, neither would it cost more — and I might save a little bit of money. I had been excited about solar PV since my teens, and I moved forward, making a down payment of a few thousand dollars to offset my monthly lease amount.

    Right now, I calculate my solar panels as saving me about $5/month in energy costs. However, another $25/month was paid 12 years ago, so that is $30 I don’t have to spend today. Considering the events of the last decade, the money paid down was a wise investment.

    There are some places/situations where bringing in fuel is not feasible or not desired. That is where electricity generated from non-fuel sources has great value.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 14 2022 #111540
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Regarding Arizona,
    In the Phoenix Metro Area there used to be a great deal of agriculture – it relied on water from the Colorado River and the Salt & Verde Rivers and a couple of long, large canals. I live close to one of the canals. I bike and walk alongside it and sometimes throw some bread to the ducks — mostly mallards and another breed I’m not sure of the name, plus a few escaped muscovies and some crosses. I live north of the canal. South of the canal the homes mostly still have the option of cheap canal water for yard irrigation. The yards tend to be very green. The irrigation was put in place for farms…but there are few of those left in the metro area. I have a sister in Mesa, AZ who lives in a house with the irrigation option, and uses it.

    My parents now live in Mesa as well. Their gardens are thriving…my mother perfected “lasagne gardening” years ago, and creates her own compost. Due to stresses in my life, it is only in the past 12 months that I’ve been able to pay much attention to my gardens…all of the new areas I am amending with compost and soil from the hen yard. I plan to start amending the old gardens with the same in the fall…..

    Gardening in Phoenix is possible, but there are challenges:
    1. Short growing seasons: essentially, 2 short hot seasons and 2 short cold seasons; hot seasons divided by an intensely hot summer and cool seasons divided by a winter that is just cool enough to kill tender warm weather plants.
    2. Water! It can be challenging to provide enough water.
    3. Intense summer sun and heat. I tried pineapple sage this spring. It was doing wonderfully. For the last 10 days it has been over 110 degrees, and despite watering daily, the plant is literally drying up under the sun. Many edibles that require “full sun” elsewhere require “partial shade” in a Phoenix summer.

    Water is the biggest challenge. There is very little rainwater collection nor gray water use.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 12 2022 #111408
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    UK ambulance problems…
    …Will someone explain to me why the folks don’t just take their ailing family members in their own vehicles or in a taxi to the nearest hospital?

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 12 2022 #111406
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Kunstler’s solar fiasco

    Most of the time, “backwards compatibility” and being able to slip something new into a system that is older is ideal. Hence, if we have to bid the incandescent light goodbye, it is nice to simply slip LED bulbs into incandescent fixtures. However, if we are going to step down in our use of electricity, the facts of the matter is that most of the electrical items in our homes run off of direct current and not alternating current, and the AC has to be changed to DC for each item. Think: computer, laptop, smartphone, television, aquarium pump, all of those LED bulbs, exercise bicycle, etc. Many items could be powered either way — an electric drill is AC, while a cordless drill is DC, and DC refrigerators can be purchased.

    Much of the fragility in K’s complex solar system is due to the requirement to convert the DC power off of the solar panels to AC for the home…which is then largely converted back to DC!

    Someday, spouse and I are going to rebuild the 16’ 1973 camping trailer. It will include solar PV. I plan to wire it primarily for DC 12 volt and 5 volt, with a small inverter for rare moments when AC is needed, and perhaps a lead as well for laptop charging. Someday, we plan to build an off-grid home, also with solar PV. That, as well, I plan to wire for DC voltages with a few AC outlets. I don’t personally have the know how, but it is my understanding that stepping down DC to specific voltages is not wildly difficult. Imagine — LEDs that actually last a long time (unlike these crappy LED bulbs), and not needing to keep replacing device chargers and power supplies!

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 10 2022 #111302
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    @ germ
    Epoch paywall is annoying. Do you have the name of the doctor interviewed in vid?

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 10 2022 #111301
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    @ RIM
    EPIC browser has same problem as others when it reloads with the comments section in the viewable scope rather than the top of the page. I am wondering if perhaps Epic browser loads page in a different order than more common browsers? Specifically, perhaps in a certain order the ad gets stuck before the rest of the page loads? Might try disabling ads, see if that fixes it, if so, then focus on ad module. (I am sure the ads bring in important revenue.)

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 10 2022 #111297
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    @ Willem
    Hear, hear. I, too, noticed the author’s nearly sublimated opinion on the topic.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 10 2022 #111295
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    @ RIM
    Yes. Noticed the problems loading TAE today. The picture loaded, and nothing afterwards loaded – even the ad on the bottom only halfway loaded. Then the page would go white and attempt to load again, getting to the same point. I’m connecting from an iPad, saw the problem on both Firefox and Safari. I switched to the Epic browser, and then the day’s page loaded correctly.
    Hope the information helps! When troubleshooting, you never know which piece of information is going to lead to the solution.
    🙂

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 9 2022 #111232
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    “Sharply higher prices for scarce items, limit their use to the most efficient uses of the items and encourages the use of substitute items.“

    Well, sure, but this is a rosy over-simplification.
    If scarce items do not have ready, low-cost substitutes, then those at the bottom of the economic heap simply don’t get what they need.
    Too often, prices get bid up when items are not actually scarce. Or big players (not just government) create artificial scarcities.
    Food has been generally low cost for decades because of federal government subsidies.
    The only reason I and my children have healthcare is due to a government program. Otherwise, I’d likely end up “doctoring” the people just like I play veterinarian with the pets….
    Capitalism is plagued with boom/bust cycles. A few have figured out how to use these cycles to increase their wealth…at the expense of most folks who routinely see their efforts washed away by the busts.
    There are areas of the economy where the “free market” system works very well…and there are also areas with gross mismatches and systemic problems.

    ~~~

    Mega-vac
    Very cool. Does it work as well with the weird white “blood clots” in the vaxxed?

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 5 2022 #111031
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    “this feels directed by a non-human intelligence“

    Because totalitarianism is not organized along lines that humans generally use, so it seems foreign to us.

    So, for example, politicians who break the campaign promises to voters but keep promises to major donors — this is a part of the current and last hundred years (more?) of the current US political system. We may decry this, we may complain loudly of corruption — but it “makes sense.” Pushing a deadly vaccination, starting a war with nuclear Russia, cutting fossil fuel supplies, allowing the food systems to fall apart, etc., is not just corrupt — it is illogical from a typical point of view: it is lacking in common sense.

    Totalitarianism is based on an idea, on ideology, excluding reality and personal experience. All logic proceeds from the idea. In Nazi-ism it was a race idea, Hitler was going to create a master race, and all was bent towards the aim. For Stalin, it was class-based — he was creating a classless society that was superior to the rest of the world, that would eventually supplant the rest of the world. There is no room for life experience or “the real world” to interfere with the ideology.

    Totalitarian systems are perpetually in motion.

    Arendt says that, in the long run, totalitarianism cannot endure (unlike most other political forms) because reality cannot be submerged forever. That, and with every new birth a new person is born, with new ideas, and the children are not natively part of the totalitarian system. The best way to avoid a totalitarian system from taking hold is to not let go of freedom and liberty. Of course, totalitarianism is so massively destructive that it can cause enormous strife and devastation over the course of years and decades.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 5 2022 #111021
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Hot water rationing

    How is hot water rationed without rationing natural gas in general? Or, is all cooking on electric ranges and nat gas only used for hot water heating? What about electric water heaters — do folks not have those in Hamburg? Are they just going to make the price for natural gas sky high after a set point? (That was what was done in So. Cal. during a drought in my teens. The assumption was that all households have four people in them. We were 6, and my mom had a vegetable and fruit garden. She had us stop up the tub when we showered and then used a pump to reuse the water in the wash cycle of the washing machine.)

    If the gas hot water heaters are “smart” the people aren’t stupid — one could always take a bath and heat water on the stove…which is less efficient.

    (If nat. gas disappears where I am, I plan to build myself a solar batch hot water heater. Just need a non-leaky old water heater, some old glass windows, wood for a box, some pipe and fittings…I have a sunny patio located just outside of the current hot water heater’s location.)

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 4 2022 #110948
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Decentralization of laws is helpful — multistate and international corporations don’t much like it — patchwork laws are a headache for them…but we citizens can navigate it pretty well. I also suspect that a patchwork of laws makes it more difficult for the WEF folks to take over. However, the totalitarian types will create new bureaucracies that coexist with current structures, and the new structures will be imbued with more immediate authority than the older structures.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 4 2022 #110946
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    @ oxymoron. @ John Day “ Must there be a human Fuhrer?”
    The “supreme leader” in a classical totalitarian movement is more than an idea or figurehead. The individual is an active part of the phenomenon, the “embodiment” of the ideals of the movement, and the final authority on all issues. All allegiance is directly to the supreme leader. For this reason, there are no logical, nested lines of hierarchy, such as we tend to see in corporate, government, education, or military systems. Lines of authority are constantly in flux in totalitarian systems as they align and realign. If what we are currently experiencing has no “supreme leader” then we are not dealing with classical totalitarianism, but rather something else that shares many major characteristics.

    It may be that the leader is currently hidden, or that what is going on currently is nascent, not fully formed, and such a leader has yet to emerge. Or, it may be something different than what has gone on before.

    @ Neal
    Yes. There were 2 examples of classic totalitarian systems: Hitler’s Nazi Germany and Stalin’s USSR. Both were dissected, compared, contrasted by Arendt.

    @ Redneck
    Valid point about Bandera. Antisemitism was very very prevalent throughout Europe prior to WWII. Arendt saw it as the culmination of a historical thread: Jews were not integrated with the nations where they live and some Jews and Jewish families had helped the European aristocracy for centuries. By 1900, Jews become an easy scapegoat for problems in Europe, including Russia, and this lead to tragedy, especially under the two totalitarian regimes.

    “ Communism and Bolshevism was a Jewish inspired phenomenon , Karl Marx was a Jew , Jews were involved in the starving to death of six million Ukranians , the event known as the Holodomor .”

    The idea that there was/is a “Jewish conspiracy” is a few hundred years old, and — according to Arendt — is/was false. (Of course, Arendt is Jewish.) Jews have been involved in a great many things; so have white humans of European descent (Crusades, etc.,) but we don’t generally expand this to a “white conspiracy” either (although the true believers of critical race theory do propose this idea. And how does it make us white folks feel? Personally, I feel indignant for have nothing to do with the creation of “white supremacy” — I am just trying to support myself and my kids.)

    Crowd energy may explain some events in a totalitarian system, but doesn’t explain the entirety. Mass formation due to propaganda does a better job of explaining the behavior of the “party members” and “sympathizers.” One of the odder aspects of totalitarian systems is that a little bit of terror and a lot of propaganda are used to get the totalitarian system in power. Once in power, that is when “the gloves come off” and the terror ramps up.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 3 2022 #110883
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    I think that the vaxed dying from the vax finally makes a modicum of sense. I have tried to figure this out for over a year — why seemingly kill off and injure those who are supporting the movement, supporting those who have given us covid and steered the pandemic and its response?

    The only idea I could come up with was that the crafters of the pandemic and the spike protein injections didn’t have a problem with the injections being deadly, but didn’t realize just how deadly they were, and overplayed their hand. However, taking into consideration Arendt’s analysis, I think that is not correct.

    Arendt states that the internal logic of totalitarianism is so different from normal modes of human governing that it defies “common sense.” She says that this is why the countries dealing with Nazi Germany as it began conquering neighboring nations tended to make so many blunders.

    Under conditions of total terror not even fear can any longer serve as an advisor of how to behave, because terror chooses its victims without reference to individual actions or thoughts, exclusively in accordance with the objective necessity of the natural or historical process. [She has just spent the last few paragraphs talking about how totalitarianism follows a “natural” or “historical” process.] Under totalitarian conditions, fear probably is more widespread than ever before; but fear has lost its practical usefulness when actions guided by it can no longer help to avoid the dangers man fears. The same is true for sympathy or support of the regime; for total terror not only selects it victims according to objective standards; it chooses its executioners with as complete a disregard as possible for the candidate’s convictions and sympathies.

    For sympathizers of the WEF, they are under the spell, and living inside the fiction created by the lackeys of the WEF. They live in terror. The anti-covid inoculations create a situation where anyone could suddenly become the next victim of health issues — disability or death. Because the anti-covid inoculations are initiatory and loyalty tests, even people who generally have social and political status have taken the shots. The loyal are not “rewarded.” The loyal are simply a part of the movement, and will become either its next victims or its next executioners, in a process that is not dependent upon their own convictions or actions.

    That is why the family with the young children going for the kids’ anti-covid inoculations completely ignores the activists trying to save the children. The family is part of the movement, part of the secret society, part of the cult. The family is going to participate in all of the necessary rituals, hate all of the designated people, support all of the designated causes.

    I don’t know how this is happening with no visible “supreme leader” at the center, actively creating the weave. This is both similar and different to what has gone on before.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 3 2022 #110876
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Dr D:
    “Washington State Governor Makes Covid Vaccines a Permanent Requirement (JTN)”

    Ideological loyalty test.

    Bingo.
    Totalitarian systems are akin to secret societies and have initiation rites. Covid vaccination is an initiation rite and endless boosters are loyalty tests.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 3 2022 #110875
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    I expect to finish the last 20 pages of Hannah Arendt’s Origins of Totalitarianism today. The last two days spent mostly traveling gave me time to read.

    I highly recommend the book. Fair warning — Arendt’s writing is pointed and highly organized, but is also full of sentences with many commentary clauses. I sometimes found myself skipping clauses while re-reading a sentence to keep the sentence meaning clear. I found that when people around me started talking to me while I was reading that I either couldn’t follow what the person said or couldn’t follow what I was reading — the writing is “thick” enough that I could not multitask and retain understanding. The edition I have contains 480 pages — it is not a light read. For brevity, the first two sections can be skipped, for while they are relevant, and provide a rich historical setting and background of the two major totalitarian regimes (Hitler, Stalin,) of the 20th century, it is the third section, on totalitarianism specifically, that is most directly relevant to what we are currently experiencing.

    However, what we currently have *is not* totalitarianism as defined by Arendt. There is one MAJOR difference: lack of a “supreme leader.” This major difference is not irrelevant — it is highly relevant if we are to understand what is going on and how to combat it. I realized that this is why Sheldon Wolin called our current system “inverted totalitarianism” in Democracy, Inc.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 2 2022 #110824
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Redneck:
    “ How do you legislate away the idea that men get pregnant and lactate?”

    Well, men cannot become pregnant, but they *can* lactate. Occasionally, baby males are born with a tiny bit of milk in their mammary glands, a response to the mother’s hormones stimulating her mammary glands in preparation for birth. There is a drug that can kick-start lactation in both sexes – I don’t remember the name, read about it around 15 years ago.
    And, if a man puts a suckling babe to his tits for a long enough period of time, lactation will eventually be stimulated. (However, that would seem to me to be a rather painful process for the man and frustrating process for the suckling child!)

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 1 2022 #110749
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    @ Willem
    Regarding rationing in Europe, and how long till it spreads to US — it is already here somewhat. The grocery store in Vail, CO is limiting purchases of feminine sanitary products to two packages per customer. It isn’t government mandated…yet.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 1 2022 #110747
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    @ antidote
    I have the utmost respect for the unborn. From the moment I knew I was carrying new life within me, I knew that I carried a sacred responsibility within me. It was up to me to see the babes safely into the world. I sought out quality prenatal care to assist me with both of my “high risk” pregnancies.
    I also see motherhood/parenthood as a sacred responsibility.

    But I cannot dictate to other women how to view pregnancy nor what to do about it. Life has taught me some very cruel lessons about how difficult it is to raise children, especially when one parent decides not to fulfill his parental obligations fully. I have lived on the edge for the last 10 years because of this.

    Antidote:
    “So when does this little *thing* which is connected to it’s mother via an umbilical cord, floating in an amniotic sack and carried in the womb of its mother become separate and an “independent being’ ? And start to have RIGHTS of it’s own?? “

    Children do not have much in the way of “rights of their own.” Children’s parents are their legal advocates, making decisions about vaccines, medical procedures, schools, religious training, etc. Children do not have full rights of their own until age 18. I do not propose that a fetus has no rights; it is my view that the woman who houses the fetus is the one who is responsible for safeguarding the rights of the fetus. If you do not want us to live in a world where women choose elective abortions then create a world where it is not necessary.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 1 2022 #110745
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    As a post script…
    As I drive home to Arizona, I realize that due to the recent Supreme Court ruling I *do* lose a degree of bodily autonomy the moment I become pregnant as long as I am located physically within the state of Arizona.

    Abortion in AZ is now controlled by a law that predates Arizona statehood by 11 years, and goes back to 1901. The law predates women’s suffrage. Abortion is only legal if the woman’s life is threatened by the pregnancy. Any provider who aids with abortion — including prescribing chemicals, “the morning after pill,” etc. — can be sentenced 2-5 years in prison. There are no exceptions for rape or incest — now, in Arizona, raped women must carry the pregnancy and may not take “the morning after pill” to avoid implantation of the embryo.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle July 1 2022 #110738
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Dr D
    “ No fathers then. Glad to hear it”

    You sound like a communist — community and collective interests prevail over the individual!

    You are confounding the point. Gestating women have the unborn housed within their bodies. Gestating women retain bodily autonomy, they do not become the chattel of the father, nor the chattel of the government, nor the chattel of the community. Men and non-gestating women have bodily autonomy (unless they are incapacitated/unable to exercise autonomy.)

    Fathers, families, and communities are obligated to support both gestating women, children, and adults who are raising children: this is a separate issue from the bodily autonomy that all mentally capable adults retain at all times. (Obviously, a vegetative adult or Joe Biden should not be making this decision. Children should have varying degrees of bodily autonomy as well, although the specifics are worked out between the children and their parents/caretakers.)

    I *LOATHE* elective abortion, but the idea that I could become pregnant and lose bodily autonomy is both horrifying and unethical. It is as horrifying as being jabbed with an anti-Covid shot “for the good of the community” against my will. I don’t need the government nor my community telling me what to do in a given situation should I become pregnant — I am fully capable and competent to seek out appropriate advisors and make my own decisions, based upon my own life situation and my own moral compass.

    I respect the right of all women to make these decisions for themselves and the unborn that may be within them. I recognize that I may disagree with the decisions that other women make regarding the unborn. I have two elderly friends that have had “tut-tutting” conversations about me because I did not “support my community” and get a Covid jab.

    Dr D:
    It is only by granting gestating women bodily autonomy that you recognize that they are independent beings, with capable minds and hearts, just as your own heart and mind are capable. Once this is done, then you may offer your support so that they have the confidence that they will be supported in whatever way they need in order to give birth and then raise or adopt out the child. It sounds to me like you are terrified that some women will not act in the way you feel is correct, and so you desire using “the long arm of the law” to bring their behavior in line with your views of right and wrong.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle June 29 2022 #110662
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    @ Veracious poet
    It seems to me that since God has new human life gestating in the woman, that God has left it up to the woman to be in charge of the unborn. God could have chosen the egg method.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle June 25 2022 #110361
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Anyone here follow The Orville?
    Seth McFarlane often uses the shows he creates to comment on what is going on in the world.
    In S3, E4 we see how the Krill (who are compared to the “religious right”) punish parents who choose to abort their child. A simulation is created of the child that would have been, and they are forced to interact with the simulated child. In the same episode, we discover that Captain Mercer’s dalliance with an undercover Krill woman in season 2 has produced a child. The mother did not abort the child, instead giving birth and turning her over to caretakers, and ensuring the half-human girl never meets the public because the child could be catastrophic for the mother’s political career.

    I don’t believe that government should insert itself between a woman and her unborn child.
    I also believe that Roe v. Wade was inappropriate because according to the Constitution, what is not covered by the Constitution should be left to the states. I have no problem with laws differing from state to state, and I recognize that I may not agree with laws that a state may enact.

    It is very important that nations and states be governed by law, and not merely by what any group or individual within the country feels very strongly about. Process matters, not just results. In most cases and situations, the ends do not justify the means…and the ends ultimately follow the means.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle June 19 2022 #109994
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    “ The federal Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), for example, is examining this technology for U.S. military to protect against the West Africa lassa fever, a virus spread by rats to humans. This project, it should be noted, does not require the consent of our military service men and women”

    But does, however, violate the Nuremberg Code.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle June 17 2022 #109880
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    @ John Day
    Banana trees look very happy! (And Jenny does, too!)

    in reply to: Debt Rattle June 17 2022 #109879
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Family support centers firebombed….

    In my view, both the abortion clinics and the family support centers should exist. Too often it seems that people get upset thinking that the evil abortion clinic is convincing pregnant women to abort while the family support centers are bullying the women into keeping an unwanted pregnancy.

    Hogwash. Let the women choose. If we all know the views of both places, a woman’s feet can take her to the location of her choice.

    When pregnant with twins I ended up needing prenatal care…but my self-pay, high-deductible medical insurance didn’t cover pregnancy. (This was pre-Obamacare days.) In order to show the government that I was pregnant, making me eligible for Medicaid during the pregnancy, I went to a family support center, which gave me certification of a positive pregnancy test.

    Firebombing either type of clinic is really not appropriate. People get so worked up over trying to control women and human reproduction.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle June 16 2022 #109814
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Dr D shared from ecosophia:
    “ Americans will have to produce most of their own goods and services again. To say that we’re very poorly prepared to do this is to understate things considerably”

    True, we are poorly prepared. But we have also squashed much of our brilliance for a couple generations by preferring low-paid foreign engineers and bought up patents to prevent the inventions from being made. I think about my 16 year old son, designing machines with Minecraft…inventing machines and building machines he learns about, and then refining, improving, and expanding their functions. He taught himself to do this. I believe that some day he will do this “in the real world.” We can have a resurgence out of this train wreck — but the US does not need to be a dominant world power, does not need an empire. We can get back to the ideals that knitted the nation together.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle June 16 2022 #109813
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Assange
    “Mini stroke”
    He is young enough that even under great stress is stroke is not probable. It was probably more directly from the mRNA injections.
    *sigh*
    The person who was supposed to be the featured act after the hourlong open mic last night had to cancel due to hospitalization due to complications from a “mini stroke.” That individual was past retirement age, so likely no one but me attributed the vax as probable cause.
    And a singing student that started several weeks ago has now missed the last two lessons due to not feeling well directly after a booster…and after a week was admitted to the hospital. I didn’t know her well enough to have ever broached the subject of the mRNA injections.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle June 14 2022 #109696
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    @ John Day
    I am getting tomatoes from my plants started 6-7 months ago. (Although, they are now stopping to set fruit due to triple digits, and I have to pick them half ripe now because the birds and ants are thirsty…)
    I started them by seed under grow lights in front of a south facing window in Nov/Dec in seed starter potting soil in egg cartons. I transplanted to 4” pots. I left them under light for about 2 days, so I could be sure they were doing well after transplant. Then I moved them outside in trays — that way, I could bring them in if the overnight temps dropped below 45 degrees — and take them back in the morning. I had lots of multiples due to using lots of old seeds – at about 2” high I separated them into their own pots. Last frost is usually by Feb 15 in Phoenix, but I planted a few out before then — there may be no late frost, and they’ll get a head start. I like putting them in the ground when they are at least 4” high. I grew too many this year and gave about 20 away to my mother and sister.

    It is very important here to get the tomatoes well-established before the triple digit heat. Now…I just try to keep them alive until September…it will get easier once the monsoon season starts.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle June 14 2022 #109693
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    @ Raul
    Well, my son is now 16 and by age 9 he was incensed that his peers called him “a girl” for his silver boots, and he told me bout it, insisting that HE WAS A BOY. Occasionally, over the years there were conversations where if he felt otherwise he could have brought it up. Meanwhile, his sister came out as “queer” and has several gender non-conforming friends. We attended a church with LGBTQ+ folks, and I had a friend who was mom to friends of my kids transition to be a man and parent of their children. So…if he wanted to say something, he certainly could…but he has not.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle June 14 2022 #109655
    phoenixvoice
    Participant

    Yesterday I was reminded of how profound the differences can be between little boys and little girls. I have a piano student, a girl just turned 6. There is a finger puppet game I play with her to teach her finger numbers for piano. She chose 2 flower puppets. Multiple times throughout the song she found opportunities for the flower puppets to kiss each other. I smiled, remembering the girly things my own daughter did at that age…and how my boys didn’t do those things…although one of my boys at that age loved to dress-up in dresses, and persisted in wearing a gold jacket and silver boots for quite a while. I remember how perplexed I was at the time by my son’s behavior, but decided against tying gender to it. Instead, I called him “a rockstar” by way of explanation. He eventually quit wearing shiny and sparkly clothes, (although I suspect that he still secretly likes the color pink.) He always also had many behavioral traits that are typically considered male. I’ve never observed him deviating from seeing himself as a boy, although I raised him in an environment that did not condemn trans people. I do believe that if I had suggested to him that his “girly” behavior might mean that he was *really* a girl, that it would have been psychologically damaging for him. Children look to parents as guideposts as they make sense out of life. One of the things I’ve learned through parenthood is that, yes, children need choices, but they need developmentally appropriate choices. For the vast majority of children, gender doesn’t fall into the category of a developmentally appropriate choice. Gender is an expression of their genetic makeup. It is wise to accept one’s body as it is, acknowledging that most changes we might do — lose or gain weight, deliberately build muscle, a tattoo or piercing, makeup and hair removal or styling — are cosmetic.

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