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TOPIC: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5752

It's time we do away with the notion behind the incessant flow of stories and warnings about upcoming hyperinflation in the US. It can't and therefore won't happen, at least not for years into the future. It would be a lot more constructive - and necessary - to focus on the reality we see before us than on such a purely mythological tale. Because that's all it is. Bubbles, and yes, that includes credit bubbles, have their own internal dynamics: they MUST pop when they reach critical mass.

Trying to prevent the pop, or even increase that mass, is futile. And even though that may be more about physics than about finance, why it is so hard to understand is beyond me. The deleveraging, a.k.a. debt deflation, has hardly begun, and it for now remains largely hidden behind a veil of QEs. That doesn't negate the fact that ultimately QE is powerless to stop it, even as it sure manages to fool a lot of people into thinking it can.

But don't take my word for it. You could start with - even - the IMF saying European banks will need to sell $4.5 trillion in assets through 2013. And then try to explain how that could possibly link to hyperinflation. For now: never mind.

Puru Saxena wrote a good piece on the topic recently, here are a few excerpts:


The Age of Deleveraging

The world’s major economies are struggling and their private-sector is deleveraging (paying off debt). If history is any guide, this deflationary process is likely to continue for several years.

You will recall that heading into the global financial crisis, corporations and households in the developed world were leveraged to the hilt. During the pre-crisis era, debt was considered a birth right and for decades, the private-sector leveraged its balance-sheet. Unfortunately, when the US housing market peaked and Lehman went bust, asset values plummeted but the liabilities remain unchanged. Thus, for the first time in their lives, people in the developed world experienced the wrath of excessive leverage.

Today, the private-sector in the West is struggling and for the vast majority of households, their liabilities now exceed their assets. Furthermore, incomes have also declined (or vanished), thereby making the debt servicing even more difficult. Consequently, in order to avoid bankruptcy, the private-sector in the developed world is now trying its best to reduce its debt overhang. Instead of getting excited by near-zero interest rates and taking on even more debt, it is now doing the unthinkable and paying off its liabilities.

Figure 1 shows that despite the Federal Reserve’s carrot of almost free credit, the private-sector in the US is deleveraging. As you can see, since the bursting of the housing bubble, America’s companies and households have been accumulating large surpluses. Make no mistake, it is this deleveraging which is responsible for the sluggish economic activity in much of the developed world. Furthermore, this urge to repay debt is the real reason why monetary policy in the West has become ineffective.


 


Figure 1: America’s private-sector is not playing Mr. Bernanke’s game. Source: Nomura

If you review data, you will note that in addition to the US, most nations in Western Europe are also deleveraging and this explains why the continent’s economy is on its knees.

The truth is that such periods of deleveraging continue for several years and when the private-sector decides to repay debt, interest rates remain subdued and monetary policy becomes ineffective. Remember, during a normal business cycle, monetary easing succeeds in igniting another wave of leverage. However, when the private-sector is already leveraged to the hilt and it is dealing with negative equity, low interest rates fail to kick start another credit binge.

As much as Mr. Bernanke would like to ignore this reality, it is clear to us that this is where the developed world stands today. Furthermore, this ongoing deleveraging is the primary reason why the Federal Reserve’s stimulus has failed to increase America’s money supply or unleash high inflation. Figure 2 shows that over the past 4 years, the US monetary base has grown exponentially, yet this has not translated into money supply or loan growth.


 


Figure 2: Liquidity injections have failed to increase US money supply. Source: Nomura

At this stage, it is difficult to forecast when the ongoing deleveraging will end. However, we suspect that the private-sector may continue to pay off debt for at least another 4-5 years. In our view, unless the US housing market improves and real-estate prices rise significantly, American households will not be lured by record-low borrowing costs. Furthermore, given the fact that tens of millions of baby boomers are approaching retirement age, we believe that the ongoing deleveraging will not end anytime soon. Due to this rare aversion to debt, interest rates in the West will probably remain low for several years. [..]


Once you realize just how enormous that gap is (see that last graph) between the monetary base vs the money supply, and the seemingly smaller gap between monetary base vs loans and leases, maybe then you see a light a-shinin'. Maybe you never thought about things that way before, or maybe you never saw it in a graph, and you needed to see that. It surely carries a very large argument against hyperinflation.

Puru Saxena thinks there are positive signs in US housing numbers, that there's a bottom, and he's certainly not the only one; that's one train everyone seems to be eager to jump on.

I’m sorry, but I think the recent alleged US housing recovery is a proverbial soap bubble. In the article below, Tyler Durden at ZH calls it a "subsidized bounce". He also says: "two concurrent housing bubbles can not happen", and he may well be right, but if he is, it means that perhaps what we see is a bubble within a bubble, a mother and child bubble, instead of two concurrent ones. Durden brings interesting numbers and developments to the forefront. It would be good if more people digest them, and only then decide whether this is a recovery or not.

US households are not merely deleveraging, and taken as a whole you could perhaps make a point that they're not at all. They go one step beyond deleveraging: they're simply and plainly defaulting.


US Households Are Not "Deleveraging" - They Are Simply Defaulting In Bulk

Lately there has been an amusing and very spurious, not to mention wrong, argument among both the "serious media" and the various tabloids, that US households have delevered to the tune of $1 trillion, primarily as a result of mortgage debt reductions (not to be confused with total consumer debt which month after month hits new record highs, primarily due to soaring student and GM auto loans). The implication here is that unlike in year past, US households are finally doing the responsible thing and are actively deleveraging of their own free will.

This couldn't be further from the truth, and to put baseless rumors of this nature to rest once and for all, below we have compiled a simple chart using the NY Fed's own data, showing the total change in mortgage debt, and what portion of it is due to discharges (aka defaults) of 1st and 2nd lien debt. In a nutshell: based on NYFed calculations, there has been $800 billion in mortgage debt deleveraging since the end of 2007. This has been due to $1.2 trillion in discharges (the amount is greater than the total first lien mortgages, due to the increasing use of HELOCs and 2nd lien mortgages before the housing bubble popped).

In other words, instead of actual responsible behavior of paying down debt, the primary if not only reason there has been any "deleveraging" at all at the US household level, is because of excess debt which became insurmountable, not because it was being paid down, the result of which is that more and more Americans are simply handing their keys in to the bank and walking away, and also explains why the US banking system is now practicing Foreclosure Stuffing, as defined first here, as the banks know too well, if all the housing inventory which is currently in the default pipeline were unleashed, it would rip off any floor below the US housing "recovery" which is not a recovery at all, but merely a subsidized bounce, as millions of units are held on the banks' books in hopes that what limited inventory there is gets bid up so high the second housing bubble can be inflated before the first one has even fully burst.


 


Naturally, two concurrent housing bubbles can not happen, Bernanke's fondest wishes to the contrary notwithstanding, especially since as shown above, US households do not delever unless they actually file for bankruptcy, and in the process destroy their credit rating for years, making them ineligible for future debt for at least five years.

It is thus safe to say that all the other increasingly poorer US households [..] are merely adding on more and more debt in hopes of going out in a bankrupt blaze of glory just like everyone else: from their neighbors, to all "developed world" governments. And why not: after all this behavior is being endorsed by the Fed with both hands and feet.


The following graph from TD Securities ( through Sam Ro at BI ) makes a good case for the "subsidized bounce" definition Durden applies to the present US housing market. It's no secret there's a huge shadow inventory overhanging US housing, and now it comes out that those great new home numbers are not what everybody would like to think they are.


Many more houses are built than sold. And get shoved on top of the pile that's already there, both the shadow inventory and the out of the closet one. Which begs the question: how long does a home stay in the "new" category? Does it take 1 year of staying empty for it to move to "existing"? 2 years, 3 years? 5? For one thing, builders and developers certainly have a huge incentive to continue to advertise it as new.

A graph from the same source:


 


How this constitutes a recovery I just can't fathom. I think that is just something people would like so much to see that they actually see it. Moreover, there remains the issue that it's very hard for most to comprehend what debt deflation is, what its dynamics are, and what consequences it has.

We have lived through the by far biggest credit bubble in history. It should be clear to everyone that this bubble has not fully - been - deflated yet (and if it's not, good luck). Until it has, economic recovery and housing recovery are pipedreams. And so is hyperinflation, though that may be more of a pipe nightmare. There is no way QE, or money printing, or whatever you name it, can cause hyperinflation against the tide of a deflating bubble. Once a bubble has fully burst, it is a possibility. But only then. And only if and when a country has become unable to borrow in international debt markets. Greece perhaps soon, but for the US it's years away, if ever.

Darrel Whitten at iStockAnalyst has more:


QE Not Preventing Slowest Growth Since 2009 Recession

QE Ad Infinitum: Why QE is Not Reviving Growth

In a speech in November of 2002, Fed chairman Ben Bernanke made the now infamous statement, "the U.S. government has a technology, called the printing press, that allows it to produce as many U.S. dollars as it wishes essentially at no cost," thus earning the nickname "Helicopter Ben". Then, he was "confident that the Fed would take whatever means necessary to prevent significant deflation", while admitting that "the effectiveness of anti-deflation policy would be significantly enhanced by cooperation between the monetary AND fiscal authorities."

Five years after the 2008 financial crisis, Helicopter Ben undoubtedly has a greater appreciation for the issues the BoJ faced in the 1990s. The US 10-year treasury bond (as well as global bond) yields have been in a secular decline since 1980 and hit new historical lows after the crisis. What the bond market has been telling us even before the QE era is that bond investors expect even lower sustainable growth as well as ongoing disinflation/deflation, something that Helicopter Ben has been unable to eradicate despite unprecedented Fed balance sheet deployment.

A Broken Monetary Transfer Mechanism

Effective monetary policy is dependent on the function of what central bankers call the Monetary Transmission Mechanism, where "central bank policy-induced changes in the nominal money stock or the short-term nominal interest rate impact real economy variables such as aggregate output and employment, through the effects this monetary policy has on interest rates, exchange rates, equity and real estate prices, bank lending, and corporate balance sheets."

Yet two monetary indicators, i.e., the money multiplier and the velocity of money clearly demonstrate that the plumbing of this monetary transmission mechanism is dysfunctional. In reality, the modern economy is driven by demand-determined credit, where money supply (M1, M2, M3) is just an arbitrary reflection of the credit circuit. As long as expectations in the real economy are not affected, increases in Fed-supplied money will simply be a swap of one zero-interest asset for another, no matter how much the monetary base increases. Thus the volume of credit is the real variable, not the size of QE or the monetary base.

Prior to 2001, the Bank of Japan repeatedly argued against quantitative easing, arguing that it would be ineffective in that the excess liquidity would simply be held by banks as excess reserves. They were forced into adopting QE between 2001 and 2006 through the greater expedient of ensuring the stability of the Japanese banking system. Japan's QE did function to stabilize the banking system, but did not have any visible favorable impact on the real economy in terms of demand for credit. Despite a massive increase in bank reserves at the BoJ and a corresponding increase in base money, lending in the Japanese banking system did not increase because: a) Japanese banks were using the excess liquidity to repair their balance sheets and b) because both the banks and their corporate clients were trying to de-lever their balance sheets.

Further, instead of creating inflation, Japan experienced deflation, and these deflationary pressures continue today amidst tepid economic growth. This process of debt de-leveraging morphing into tepid long-term, deflationary growth with rapidly rising government debt is now referred to as "Japanification".

Two Measures of Monetary Policy Effectiveness

(1) The Money Multiplier. The money multiplier is a measure of the maximum amount of commercial bank money (money in the economy) that can be created by a given unit of central bank money, i.e., the total amount of loans that commercial banks extend/create. Theoretically, it is the reciprocal of the reserve ratio, or the amount of total funds the banks are required to keep on hand to provide for possible deposit withdrawals.

Since September 2008, the quantity of reserves in the U.S. banking system has grown dramatically. Prior to the onset of the financial crisis, required reserves were about $40 billion and excess reserves were roughly $1.5 billion. Following the collapse of Lehman Brothers, excess reserves exploded, climbing to $1.6 trillion, or over 10X "normal" levels. While required reserves also over this period, this change was dwarfed by the large and unprecedented rise in excess reserves. In other words, because the monetary transfer mechanism plumbing is stopped-up, monetary stimulus merely results in a huge build-up of bank reserves held at the central bank.


 


If banks lend out close to the maximum allowed by their reserves, then the amount of commercial bank money equals the amount of central bank money provided times the money multiplier. However, if banks lend less than the maximum allowable according to their reserve ratio, they accumulate "excess" reserves, meaning the amount of commercial bank money being created is less than the central bank money being created. As is shown in the following FRED chart, the money multiplier collapsed during the 2008 financial crisis, plunging from from 1.5 to less than 0.8.

Further, there has been a consistent decline in the money multiplier from the mid-1980s prior to its collapse in 2008, which is similar to what happened in Japan. In Japan, this long-term decline in the money multiplier was attributable to a) deflationary expectations, and b) a rise in the ratio of cash in the non-financial sector. The gradual downtrend of the multiplier since 1980 has been a one-way street, reflecting a 20+ year dis-inflationary trend in the U.S. that turned into outright deflation in 2008.


 


(2) The Velocity of Money. The velocity of money is a measurement of the amount of economic activity associated with a given money supply, i.e., total Gross Domestic Product (GDP) divided by the Money Supply. This measurement also shows a marked slowdown in the amount of activity in the U.S. economy for the given amount of M2 money supply, i.e., increasingly more money is chasing the same level of output. During times of high inflation and prosperity, the velocity of money is high as the money supply is recycled from savings to loans to capital investment and consumption.

During periods of recession, the velocity of money falls as people and companies start saving and conserving. The FRED chart below also shows that the velocity of money in the U.S. has been consistently declining since before the IT bubble burst in January 2000—i.e., all the liquidity pumped into the system by the Fed from Y2K scare onward has basically been chasing its tail, leaving banks and corporates with more and more excess, unused cash that was not being re-cycled into the real economy.


 


Monetary Base Explosion Not Offsetting Collapsing Money Multiplier and Velocity

The wonkish explanation is BmV = PY, (where B = the monetary base, m = the money multiplier, V = velocity of money), PY is nominal GDP. In other words, the massive amounts of central bank monetary stimulus provided by the Fed and other central banks since the 2008 financial crisis have merely worked to offset the deflationary/recessionary impact of a collapsing money multiplier and velocity of money, but have not had a significant, lasting impact on nominal GDP or unemployment.

The only verifiable beneficial impact of QE, as in the case of Japan over a decade ago and the U.S. today is the stabilization of the banking system. But it is clear from the above measures and overall economic activity that monetary policy actions have been far less effective, and may even have been detrimental in terms of deflationary pressures by encouraging excess bank reserves. Until the money multiplier and velocity of money begin to re-expand, there will be no sustainable growth of credit, jobs, consumption, housing; i.e., real economic activity. By the same token, the speed of the recovery is dependent upon how rapidly the private sector cleanses their balance sheets of toxic assets.


QE falls into a black hole. And it leads into an - if possible even larger - black hole. Ben Bernanke and Mario Draghi have neither the power nor the tools to stop deleveraging and debt deflation. That's just a myth they, and many with them who stand to benefit from that myth, like you to continue believing. It makes it all that much easier for them.

That surge in excess bank reserves (see the second graph above) comes from QE. It is your money, everyone's money. And it does nothing to "heal" the economy you live in and depend on for your survival; it just takes away more of it all the time. That is the one thing Ben and Mario have power over: they can give money away that you will have to pay for down the line. They can lend it out to banks knowing that it will never be repaid, and not care one inch. Knowing meanwhile that you won't either, because you don't look at what's down the line, you look at today, and today everything looks fine. Except for that graph, perhaps, but hey, how many people are there who understand what it says?

One thing Ben and Mario can not do, however, is create hyperinflation. They can't even truly create any type of real inflation (which is money/credit supply x velocity vs goods and services), for that matter. They're stuck as much as you yourself are in the dynamics of this bursting bubble.

At The Automatic Earth, Nicole - Stoneleigh - Foss and I have been saying for years that deleveraging and debt deflation are an inevitable consequence of what went before and an equally inevitable precursor of anything that may come after. And I have often said that the deleveraging will be so severe that what may come after is only moderately interesting, since you won't hardly recognize your world once deflation has run its course. Apparently this is hard to understand, the hyperinflation myth just won't die. What can I say? Time to get serious.


 

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Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5753

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"And I have often said that the deleveraging will be so severe that what may come after is only moderately interesting, since you won't hardly recognize your world once deflation has run its course."

I'd expand that to: you will hardly recognize yourself once deflation has started in its earnest, let alone run its course.
Hold no debt. I mean it.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5754

Feeling tense? There there, let out those tears. Feeling better? Good, Let me offer a you an oily rub along with a nip and tuck.

This recovery will be long and slow. I know you're still sore, but rest assured that you're getting better.

It's really up to the media.
You don't change the subject during August vacations (see 2008).
And you don't change the subject during the run-up to a re-election.

The power of mass media to guide public behavior has been stunning.
Sumner R. works the lights, Rupert M. plays the music, and Barry D. paints your toenails. Now then, who's ready for a bit of blackjack?
Last Edit: 8 months ago by Viscount St. Albans.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5755

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ZH now has a nostalgic article "How I Caused the 1987 Crash" by Bruce Krasting. Back in 1987 I was not really paying much attention, and it did not have an immediate effect on my life.

What might serve as a bottom for the current crash? One would think that there would be some level ... I'm trying to picture a broken money system and unable to bring it into focus.
Last Edit: 8 months ago by DIYer. Reason: clarification

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5756

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Thanks Ilargi,

This is fine work on your part, yet again...

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5757

Puru Saxena and Tyler Durden? My preference is for John Williams, his numbers say hyperinflation is inevitable, and he is correct IMHO.

Clouding the issue of unabashed fiat creation with economic mumbo jumbo only serves to muddy the waters.

The path chosen by the Fed and its cohorts in Europe is inflation and currency debasement on a grand scale, standing in their way used to be called "Fighting City Hall" back in the good old days when being wealthy meant having the mortgage on your Ten thousand dollar home paid off.
Last Edit: 8 months ago by Golden Oxen. Reason: typo

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5758

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The people near me don't care about the massive debt bubble. That is because they can still buy whatever they want with a credit card or cash. They don't think it necessary to prepare for anything or read informative articles. Only when this massive bubble bursts, and people will not be able to get what they want, then maybe they will figure it out.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5759

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"Clouding the issue of unabashed fiat creation with economic mumbo jumbo only serves to muddy the waters. "

Labeling this article and the quotes in it 'mumbo jumbo' is not conducive to a good discussion. If you have to resort to that, you've already lost most of the argument right there.

The velocity of money, which is at its lowest point since 1959 at the very least, is a decisive indicator. As is the - closely connected - huge gap between the monetary base and the money supply.

How one would arrive at (hyper-)inflation in view of these indicators is, to put it mildly, not obvious.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5760

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I understand the deflation and inflation, as you have so often explained.

The deleveraging, a.k.a. ]b\debt deflation, has hardly begun,[/b] and it for now remains largely hidden behind a veil of QEs. That doesn't negate the fact that ultimately QE is powerless to stop it, even as it sure manages to fool a lot of people into thinking it can.

What I see, going forward, is a continuation of the momentous battle between the 01.0%. Those who have cash and access to the printing press against those who are forced to sell or must take a haircut and/or relinquish their claim on an asset.

the IMF saying European banks will need to sell $4.5 trillion in assets through 2013.


Those entities that could not pay their interest on their loans or pay out a dividend are the dominoes that caused the crash when they were asked to return the capital to the lenders. ( Letting the market decide the winners and the losers. ie. Lehman bros.)
Letting the market decide the winners and the losers would end the financial system.
Sooooo ...
The ponzi financial system is now kept growing and stabilized by having the gov.printing press substituting and replacing the cash flow that would normally be generated by the printing press of the banks. (lending money that they don’t have so that they could get a cash flow from assets.)

Having an asset, such as a house that has been abandoned, rotting and not generating a cash flow is perfect for a bank that is receiving a substitute cash flow from the gov. printing press. This keeps everyone who happens to be relying of that cash flow continuing with their life style as if nothing has changed. Checks for pensions, dividends, U.I., S.S., keep right on coming just like they have been for the last 30 years.

The problem has now moved to include the governments. If a government cannot print money to continue replacing the cash flow of the banks then their only options is to reduce the cash flow to their own population, austerity, (Services and Checks for pensions, dividends, U.I., S.S. and health care).

That is the one thing Ben and Mario have power over: they can give money away that you will have to pay for down the line. They can lend it out to banks knowing that it will never be repaid, and not care one inch. Knowing meanwhile that you won't either, because you don't look at what's down the line, you look at today, and today everything looks fine. Except for that graph, perhaps, but hey, how many people are there who understand what it says?


Saving the big banks means saving the financial system which means saving the ability of government to continue giving Services and Checks for pensions, dividends, U.I., S.S. and health care.

At The Automatic Earth, Nicole - Stoneleigh - Foss and I have been saying for years that deleveraging and debt deflation are an inevitable consequence of what went before and an equally inevitable precursor of anything that may come after. And I have often said that the deleveraging will be so severe that what may come after is only moderately interesting, since you won't hardly recognize your world once deflation has run its course.


As long as governments can keep printing to keep the cash flow going, deleveraging will continue at a slow pace.

Players, in the 1.0%, in the game can make the system destroy itself by buying gold and waiting for a profit due to hyperinflation.
There will have to be many more Greece before hyperinflation hits the USA.
Meanwhile, I’ll cut my own hair and only get a haircut for special occasions.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5761

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@jal
I haven't laughed so hard in a while. It got really confusing towards the end, with Greece and hyperinflation in the US, but it was epic. Good one! I wish I has some karma to give you.
Stabilizing Ponzi...my jaws hurt.
Hold no debt. I mean it.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jal

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5762

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Laughter is better than gold.

Did I earn an haircut?

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5765

I enjoy this article and all your others, well thought out. However, what I fail to understand if all this end game has been planned, either if it ends up as a deflationary spiral or not, which country benefits the most or will use this to their own self-interest. It seems to me that to increase the velocity of money and releasing large amount of credit to the private sector, something political must happen first. No one seems to be addressing this as on the books there are new technolgies ready to come to the market ( ie. the latest is a cardboard bike for $20). Is this the end game and the only window of opportunity for the US to control China before China becomes self-sufficient with a large middle-class?

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5766

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I have it on good authority (My Republican co-workers and Sean Hannity) that this is all the fault of the Community Reinvestment Act.
If the Democrats just hadn't twisted the arms of the bankers to make all those sketchy loans, we'd all be rich by now.
And probably have pockets full of gold coins.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5767

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If the IMF is saying that European banks will need to sell $4.5 trillion in assets through 2013, I don't really need to know any more. I mean, that is around $10,000 per person in Europe.

Where is the money coming from Golden Oxen? Selling gold? Or is this also "economic mumbo jumbo"

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5768

The terror of the crowd.



The first 30 seconds is all you need.


The charisma has not yet arrived. But the train has left the station.
www.nytimes.com/2012/10/21/world/europe/amid-the-echoes-of-an-economic-crash-the-sounds-of-greek-society-being-torn.html?hp&_r=0
Last Edit: 8 months ago by Viscount St. Albans.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5769

Golden Oxen -

I have to say I liked many of those charts Ilargi posted, and the linkage with Japan makes sense to me since the situation is post Gold Standard and thus directly relevant. QE has an effect certainly, its just not the one many people imagine it is. Slowing money velocity - interesting stuff, worth watching. One cause of hyperinflation is rapidly increasing money velocity, and we're seeing the opposite here.

Likewise, its totally clear to me that homeowners and small business are reducing their overall debt, for the first time - well ever, at least according to my Fed data. Reducing debt, in our money system, is deflationary whether accomplished via default or by paying it down. And they've been doing this since Q2 2008. And if you even bothered to glance at the data series, you'd see just how unprecedented this is.

The recent housing price bounce is (most likely) due to the massive reduction in interest rates; most homebuyers with mortgages buy with an eye only on monthly payments. As interest rates drop, payments decline, and they can get more home for the same payment. Mark Hanson calculated that over the past 12 months purchasing power went up by about 15%. All else being equal, that should have raised prices by that same amount. It didn't. But the really amusing bit is, overall mortgage balances dropped over that same period. Deleveraging continued - a quite solid indicator for the deflationary trend! Rates at 3.5% didn't bring buyers out of the woodwork. Do we imagine rates at 2.5% will magically do this?

Simply asserting Ilargi's evidence is "mumbo jumbo" says to me that either you don't understand the case being made, or that you don't have a valid counter-argument.

Since you believe so strongly in Williams, why not find and post some compelling case (the stuff you call mumbo jumbo) that he has produced to explain the hyperinflation that is just waiting to burst forth - specifically how gobs of new money will be created without an influx of willing borrowers. Which do not seem to exist, and haven't since 2008. Or why money velocity will suddenly increase. Which it hasn't.

Certainly, trends can change, but we need to first have a clear understanding of the trend currently in place, and evidence (data series) that help to show us where we are and what the direction has been are quite valuable to furthering that understanding.

We can keep an eye on velocity and if that situation changes, then we might have to revisit. I really like having numbers that we can watch to see the evolution of thesis.

Sometimes I think that people with "faith" in an outcome feel no need to actually prove their case (or show their work). "Whatever it is you're saying, why, it has to be wrong, because its import runs counter to my article of faith." That might work among co-religionists or members of the choir, but it doesn't play so well among people who prefer cases to be proven based on facts and evidence.
Last Edit: 8 months ago by davefairtex.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5770

First time poster here but really enjoy the articles Ilgari.

I'm a deflationist at heart but have come to believe this unnatural inflation will be the rule by hook or by crook.

My two cents on housing (my wife in a top agent in our market and we know many realtors in other Western markets). Seems the big change in housing hasn't neccessarily been lower rates (though that can't hurt) but the Fed's actions of last April to allow banks/Fan/Fred (etc.) to hold REO and rent it for 5yrs and up to 10yrs if needed. Seems this move coincides with the slowdown of distressed sales and subsequent low to now ultra low inventories. Buyers are getting "buyers fever" again...not quite like '06 but still multi bids over asking.

I'm antithetical to this ongoing market manipulation...but I don't know of any impending reason for the distressed-less inventory to continue...and thus a continued squeeze up in prices. Call it baby bubble or echo-bubble but I fear the Fed may have won this housing round (for how long I don't know) but if housing (at the margin) can be turned, our stagflation could be turned to inflation nearly everywhere but wages (the mothers milk of true growth).
I actually believe if the Fed has turned housing that this RE bubble will stand alongside bubbles in equities, bonds...this bubble coupled with nations inability to slow deficits or face the music is the underpinnings of hyperinflationary tendencies. Not saying it will happen but that the environment of deleveraging (austerity, paying down debt, etc.) is being "debunked" by Spain, Greece, etc. on international level and by Fed on national level (QE infinity is an infinite put on leverage).
Glad to know why I'm wrong...serious.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5771

Hambone -

Not being in the RE industry I must rely on what others say. Most of my data comes from Mark Hanson.

The foreclosure pipeline requires some large number of months to completely execute; varies by state but its anywhere from 6 months to years. There was a foreclosure moratorium put in place last year (due to the wholesale fraud in foreclosure documentation finally being acknowledged), and I'm guessing that's a big chunk of what is causing the dry-up in distressed property today.

I'd guess allowing the banks to keep REO around and rent it out contributes to this as well. Of course it also allows the banks to avoid recognizing losses too, which is always helpful if you are particularly focused on bank welfare.

For me, real estate will be "turned around" once interest rates return back to a more normal 6.5%, when the US government stops borrowing 10% of GDP every year, when the Fed stops monetizing the debt, and when Fannie & Freddie are no longer 90% of the mortgage market. Prior to this happening, what we're seeing is just the result of stimulus and not sustainable.

I think that in some areas where rents exceed payments by a good margin, RE might be a decent buy. But - I'm cautious. What happens when rates go back to 6.5%? A 30% drop in home prices? How much fun would that be if you've put 20% down?

Do we imagine the Fed will be able to keep rates at 3.5% in perpetuity?

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5772

Members, I was referring to my prior stated beliefs that hyperinflation was a currency confidence event that had nothing to do with the strength or weakness of the economies involved at the time of the Hyperinflation.
May I reference Argentina, China, Germany,Mexico, Zimbabwe, and countless others. Their economic situation was hardly a healthy growing one at the time of the upheaval.

Excuse me for my poor choice of words. I consider the authors at TAE to be the best and hold them in the highest regards.

My views on inflation have been instilled in me, a senior citizen, by over 60 years of relentless inflation and my current trips to the grocery store and gas station since the great credit contraction started have done little to change my view of it's continuance.

My deepest apologies to all I have offended with My Mumbo Jumbo remark, it was intended differently but I can see it was a poor choice of words. Regards GO

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5773

  • tall tom
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Nice graphics. Too bad it is wrong.

Inflation Deflation phenomenoa are RELATIVE. As with all phenomenoa which is relative there is no PRRFERRED Frame of Reference.

Imagine two concentric bubbles with you...the observer...standing on the surface of the inner one. Defate the bubble that you are standing on. The exterior bubble appears to be inflating.

Now...instead of defating your bubble you inflate it. The exterior bubble appears to be deflating. In both examples the exterior bubble size was held constant.

So yes you can experience a hyperinflation during a massive deleveraging. It matters upon perspective.

Until you can understand this you will have little clue as to what is about to overwhelm you.

Tall Tom
I Cor 13

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5774

Sometimes the belief that something "can't" happen is the impetus for something that "shouldn't" happen actually happening.

The belief that housing couldn't go down nationally set the stage for "unimaginable" losses on positions that had no margin of error factored in. It is precisely that no margin was factored (AAA) that caused such leverage and therefor allowed the boat to become so grossly listing to one side.

The reserve currency and treasuries has likewise been abused precisely because it is "impossible" for a currency crisis to happen. It is precisely this paradigm that sets the stage for the gross abuse of this privelege and allows the conditionality for what "can't" happen to do just that.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5775

  • pipefit
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It is USA deflation that is the myth. We don't need theory to tell us what deflation looks like in the modern, post Breton Woods, pure fiat era, since we have a real world example, Japan. So what does a 'real' deflation look like?

For starters, the currency of the deflating country STRENGTENS, by 100%, over its main rival over the 6 year period from the point of bubble collapse. Then it meanders sideways for at least another 17 years, with any loss in buying power quickly regained.

The primary stock market index puts in wave after wave of new lows, and after 23 years finds itself still over 75% down from the top. Similar real estate behavior.

That is not even close to what we have in the USA. Whether you call the top of the bubble as being March 2000, or some time in 2007 or 2008, it doesn't matter, our indicators are much closer to the 'hyper inflation' set up, not deflation.

Is it possible we could get the deflation outcome? Certainly. But very unlikely. The USA is slowly losing World Reserve Currency status, and this is inflationary.

We're running a GAAP deficit of $5 trillion at the federal govt. level. Within two or three years it will be well over $7 trillion, approaching 50% of GDP!!! I think John Williams is rushing it a bit with his 2013 call for hyper inflation. I would say 2014 or 2015.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5776

  • SteveB
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tall tom wrote:
Until you can understand this you will have little clue as to what is about to overwhelm you.


tall tom, I can understand imaginary bubbles, but not how they relate to reality. Could you put your example into more real context? In particular, what would correspond in reality to the bubble your hypothetical observer is standing on?

TIA

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5777

  • jal
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Here is a fix.

It matters upon perspective.

It matters only if you can finish the month with some money left in your pocket after having obtained the necessities of life.

You should get your prospective from the "entitled" poor, not the "entitled" rich.

Does anyone remember the price of a "Shave and a Haircut"?

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 8 months ago #5778

  • pipefit
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jal wrote:
Here is a fix.

It matters only if you can finish the month with some money left in your pocket after having obtained the necessities of life.


What on Earth are you talking about, Jal? In both deflationary (e.g. USA 1933) and hyper inflationary (Germany 1923) outcomes, people have nothing left over after obtaining necessities of life. In fact, in both outcomes a lot of folks starve to death, since they don't get enough to eat.

When economies are distorted by government or quasi govt. actions, capital gets misallocated and the economy experiences booms and busts that more extreme than if the economy were allowed to self correct without govt. interference.

Once the asset bubble reaches a certain size, deflation OR hyper inflation is inevitable. (read Ludwick von Mises) The one you get depends on the government response. In the present case, we are headed full steam for hyper inflation. Of course there could be a fascist or communist coup, and the new leaders may opt for deflation. It is naive to think a democratically elected regime would do so, though.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5779

  • Jack
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Hyperinflation is happening in Syria and not in Canada or USA.
Here your 1 dollar can still buy a head of cabbage.
If it was Hyperinflation than your 1 dollar would have the value of 1 cent.
Nobody uses the word Hyperinflation to describe our current environment.
It is either deflation or inflation.
Last Edit: 7 months, 4 weeks ago by Jack.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5780

  • pipefit
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You're missing the point, Jack. When you have an asset bubble the size of the NasDAQ tech wreck, or the USA housing bubble, you are going to get a devastating deflation OR hyper inflation. It just depends on the govt. policy response. The fact that they have been able to kick the can down the road this far shows you the power of having the world's reserve currency. But this only delays the inevitable.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5781

  • Jack
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Hi pipefit!
The kicking of the can down the road can go on for several years.
Maybe 4-5 years or more,nobody knows exactly how long it can last.
Japan has been doing it for over a decade.
It will eventually end but in the mean time the dollar still has the same value.

Also the laws of economics does not seem to be applying to this system because we are dealing with master swindler's.

They have manipulated all commodities and most currencies.
Last Edit: 7 months, 4 weeks ago by Jack.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5782

  • ilargi
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Pipefit,

I think you're too focused on the US alone. And the US is so dependent on and addicted to international debt markets that hyperinflation is not possible for that reason alone. That's also why what Japan goes through is not a good example, not in the way you bring it up. There'll be no long slug for America, like Japan's had over the past 20 years. Japan has been able to sell its products and debt into a thriving world economy (thriving on debt, but still), and cushion its deflationary fall that way.

For the US, that's - obviously - not in the cards. But what the US can still do is sell its debt, and with ease (look at those yields!). The bond markets, however, will keep a very tight watch on that; too much and rates will skyrocket. As for why that hasn't happened yet - a question many people will ask -, look at the graph depicting the gap between monetary base and money supply in my article.

(Hyper) inflation requires both 1) a strong and rapid increase in the money supply and 2) a strong and rapid increase in the velocity of money. Neither of these requirements are in the cards in the US today. Not at all. Something would have to trigger both, and there's nothing out there that looks like a candidate.

In my view, this line from Puru Saxena says a lot: "As long as expectations in the real economy are not affected, increases in Fed-supplied money will simply be a swap of one zero-interest asset for another". The whole financial world is gasping for breath, not about to jump up and go all ADHD on us. The opposite is happening. Less and less money is in motion. Injecting more credit is not about to change that overnight, there's far too much inertia.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5783

  • pipefit
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ilargi,

If you look at worldwide debt as one big block, it is obviously still growing wildly, with USA federal (GAAP) debt increasing $5 trillion/yr alone. We know this debt will not get paid in today's dollars.

I see three possible outcomes. The one you seem to be arguing is that bits and pieces get defaulted upon, one by one, in a positive feedback loop of economic contraction. Perhaps social security might be defaulted upon by increasing to the retirement age to absurd levels (85 years old?), as one example.

The textbook hyper inflation argument would be that the nanny state would bail just about everybody out, certainly itself and all the big players. They are already at this stage in Europe, and I agree with you that it isn't proceeding very well.

The most likely outcome, I think, is some sort of debt jubilee. I don't know the exact form(s) it could take, or even what would trigger the end game. I think it would be in conjunction with a one world currency being imposed on the planet by whoever it is that is in charge. It is quite apparent that no one is leaving the Euro, that is one clue we have to work with.

This would not be a text book hyper inflation, but close enough. You wake up one Sunday morning, and the news is that your paper money must be exchanged for the new currency, and bank accounts are frozen until they are converted. In effect, if you are a creditor, you get 10% of what you had, and if you are a debtor, most (if not all) of your debt is forgiven. If you are a saver, you get to keep 10% of your buying power.

The advantage of this 'solution' to the folks in charge is that it solves the problem of unpayable debt in a manner that enhances their power greatly. The other two solutions will lead to anarchy.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5784

  • william
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So I am not sure you are addressing what I have seen most as the reason for hyperinflation. Several nations have indicated they intend to refuse trade in American currency adjusting who is the world currency of trade.

China has not been vague about this, they have been very direct. We will not trade in US dollars and have a 10 transition period. As a planned economy and not democratically elected. This is not a threat but a statement intended for preparation. After this they enacted the Pacific Trade Pac, placing a special trade agreement between China, Russia, and India primary with others in the peripheral. There is no intent in the future to trade with anything less than a pegged currency of this group. Indicated was the fact trade of manufactured goods will not be a point of interest for China in this period.

Knowing communist countries long term plan carefully. Knowing communist countries care through a plan relentlessly despite harm caused to people to reach a goal. Knowing the trade pac carefully takes care of the needs of the core and doesn't need the US.

Knowing the American currency will not be the pegged international trade dollar, knowing all the current trade dollars will then be dumped back into the American economy, knowing this is not just the sentiments of the Pacific Trade Pac but also has been spoken of by the EU and also OPEC. Knowing this threat would this cause hyperinflation?

Not possible? Why should any country accept worthless currency in trade? Why shouldn't the economies of real physical production, containing most of the world's population, be the new pegged world currency?

Why should a minority half way across the world be the trade currency?

When the US is not the world trade currency do you expect hyper inflation?

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5785

@ reply pipefit, I certainly am in sympathy with your point of the new currency for the old, but holders of dollars will never accept an instant 90% drop in their saved wealth to save the debtors, preposterous

Prefer sticking to the time tested workable solution of constant never ending inflation. Five years of a very workable 10% inflation rate will do wonders in the screwing of the saver and will make debtors smart again. The increased revenue to the tax man via the inflation will make his Social security bills and others manageable.

Of course bonds would crack open sooner or later in that scenario, but another round of drunken orgies in the stock market, commodity markets, and of course the real estate crowd will mute it's effect and we can continue in our paper world of make believe for a while longer.

If Ilargi is correct, and we get a deflationary bust instead, then the question arises of how long are 7 billion people going to stand in a soup line, and how do you get out of that problem, everyone starting their own garden?

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5786

"Recession. It's baked in the cake and the oven timer is about to ring."

market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=213029

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5787

  • stoneleigh
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Pipefit,

Japan is not a good example of how deflation typically plays out. As Ilargi points out, they were an exporting powerhouse exporting into the biggest consumption boom the world has ever seen. They also had a very large pile of money to burn through building their four lane highways from nowhere to nowhere, since they were the world's largest creditor when their bubble burst in 1989. This is clearly not our situation.

No one will be exporting their way out of a global economic depression. In contrast, exporters are going to feel the pain big time as their markets dry up. We can expect trade wars and protectionism to abound. Take note Germany, Scandinavia, Australia, New Zealand etc etc.

We have had the inflation, only instead of a currency hyperinflation, we experienced a 30 year credit hyper-expansion. Either one amounts to an expansion of money plus credit compared to available goods and services, and is therefore inflation. Credit is equivalent to money on the way up, but not on the way down. Credit loses 'moneyness' and credit infstruments are massively devalued in a great deleveraging. This is deflation by definition and it is already underway. Debt monetization is nothing in comparison with the scale of the excess claims to underlying real wealth that stand to be eliminated.

I agree that the currency of a deflating nation strengthens. This is exactly why we have been writing about the value of the US dollar increasing, which it has done. The bottom came in a long time ago, and despite the set backs that are an integral part of a fractal market, the trend is up, and will be for some time. That's not to say it will be for the long term - far from it in fact - but for now that is the case. We have made it clear that cash is a short term bet (of the order of a few years), and that the longer term strategy is to move into hard goods at the point when one can reasonably afford to do so with no debt.

Some could do so now, while others would have to wait for prices to fall, as they inevitably do in a deflation, but not immediately. Price movements follow changes in the money supply. We have been in a counter-trend reflation since 2009, and prices have risen as a result. They may continue to do so for a while after the reflation is clearly over, but then the trend will reverse. Prices will fall, but purchasing power will fall faster, meaning that prices will rise in real terms for most people. Those who have preserved capital as liquidity will find their purchasing power enormously increased, but most other will lose purchasing power because they will have nop access to credit, highly unfavourable employment cirumstances, rising property taxes and very little actual money.

The fiat currency regime will eventually descend into chaos as beggar they neighbour devaluations become the norm, but not everyone can devalue at will or at once. The market will decide relative values for the next while. Money will go from where the fear is to where the fear is not. It will be leaving the European periphery, and increasingly the entire eurozone, and flooding into currencies like the USD, the Swiss franc, the Swedish krona, and temporarily the British pound. It doesn't matter if the US is downgraded. Market participants will ignore the ratings agencies and vote with their feet on a kneejerk flight to safety.

You say that the US indicators are much closer to the hyperinflation set up than to deflation. I would disagree of course, for reasons Ilargi has explained (plummeting velocity of money for instance). I would also point out that the conditions you describe simply reflect the top of the rally. People extrapolate the trend of the last three years forward, but fail to anticipate trend changes. We are in one. Many markets have topped already (gold, silver, commodities, oil etc), and the rolling top of the last year or so is about to claim the American stock market as well.

The rollover in the markets will drag the real economy down with it, with a time lag, since the time constant for changes in the real economy is much longer than for the financial world where value is virtual. We are headed into the teeth of the Greatest Depression, or at least the most significant one since the fourteenth century.

Hyperinflation is simply not on the cards any time soon. The depression will proceed for many years before that becomes a serious risk, unless you live in the European periphery that is, where currency reissue is a very real risk in the relatively short term. In those currencies, loss of faith in New Drachmas, New Pesetas or New Lira is very likely, and the countries will be cut off from international debt financing, with hyperinflationary results. That is not the situation in the US at all, and won't be for quite a long time. Eventually, when international debt financing is dead and buried, then printing will be a risk and a loss of faith in the erstwhile reserve currency could be expected.

In the meantime, debts defaults are going to skyrocket, each one doing its bit to destroy the value of credit instruments, and substract from the effective money supply. This is already underway, and the great asset grab has begun as a result. Witness the asset stripping of Greece for instance.

In Europe, endless bailouts of sovereigns and the well-connected are doing nothing to increase the money supply or the velocity of money. In contrast, the ineffectuality of governments is doing nothing more than feeding the cycle of fear by demonstrating their ineffectuality time after time. They are trying to over come contraction, but are fighting an irresistable headwind. It is not going to work. Europe is already in contraction, and as fear will be increasingly in the ascendancy, that will only get worse.

Government obligations will be shed right, left and centre (by governments of the right, left and centre) because they will have no choice. Yes, this will lead to anarchic unrest, and yes this will be met with a heavy-handed repressive response. Social polarization is very much on the cards - governments vs people, haves vs have-nots, natives vs immigrants, employers vs workers, unionized vs non-unionized, Us vs Them in general terms. This will not be pretty, to say the least. Just because it is a bad thing does not mean that it cannot happen, or that government, by their actions, can make any difference to the outcome.

Bailouts are never for the little guy. The creditors hold the political power and write the rules. They will not allow debtors off the hook. Instead of repayment in money, they will take people's freedom instead, making debt slavery much more real than it is today. Debts will not be forgiven, but sold on to more aggressive debt collectors. This is already happening in the US, where debt collection is becoming increasingly unconscionable. Debts will only be effectively forgiven when people have nothing useful to repay, not even their labour. By then the middle classes will probably be living in latter day Hoovervilles, like the Villas Miserias populated by the formerly middle class Argentines.

Savers will have all the buying power, IF they have managed to get their savings away from dependence on the solvency of middle men. Otherwise they will likely disappear in a giant black hole of credit destruction, as yet more excess claims to underlying real wealth.
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Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5788

  • pipefit
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Stoneleigh,

I actually agree with most of your points, and I think that a deflation of the type you discuss is a possibility. I think, in the fairly near future, say within six months, we should have a lot more clear cut idea where this is going. For example, by February or March we will be near the end of the annual favorable period for gold. Obviously, last year's gold performance supported your argument. Two years in a row would give it a lot more credence. By February we should know how the 'fiscal cliff' will be managed as well.

As the USA economy contracts, the GAAP (and cash) deficit will continue to increase wildly. The two things supporting the USA dollar as world reserve currency are USA consumer consumption and the USA military presence worldwide. So military spending cannot be cut. But with imports dropping, the consumer side of the equasion will weaken. So we will be in the awkward situation of having to maintain military spending for a smaller and smaller role for the international dollar. The consequence, then, with fewer trade dollars to recycle, the QE-x process will be an increasingly bigger part of US Treasury sales.

We are really in new territory with our GAAP deficit at $5 trillion, or over 30% of GDP per year, and rising rapidly. There is a limit out there, and it is approaching rapidly. I think this is what forces the end game. Again, we have to wait and see what the policy response is. It could be deflationary of inflationary. In terms of social security, it has been a mixture: cutting social security taxes-inflationary, and lowballing COLA increases-deflationary.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5789

You are saying hyperinflation or even high inflation isn't on the horizon and deflation and a strong dollar is. Does that mean all the US and European folks buying gold will be burned?

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5790

@ Stoneleigh.
Can you define Reflation?

We have been in a counter-trend reflation since 2009, and prices have risen as a result. They may continue to do so for a while after the reflation is clearly over


I know what deflation is.
I know what inflation is.
No idea what reflation is.
Last Edit: 7 months, 4 weeks ago by Viscount St. Albans.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5791

  • stoneleigh
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sonoran84,

Yes, many people buying gold are going to get burned. The spot price will fall a long way, but most people won't get the spot price anyway. They'll be desperate enough to sell their gold for a loaf of bread and half a dozen eggs at some point. Too many people buying gold are not taking care of more important things first, like holding to debt, holding liquidity (cash) and having some control over the essential of their own existence. Gold is an insurance policy to buy after you've done all that, and even then it's no panacea. You can expect to have to sit on it for many years without having to rely on the value it represents, and it will not be safe to buy and sell it, perhaps for the rest of your life. Owning that concentrated a source of value has its price.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5792

  • stoneleigh
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Viscount St Albans,

Reflation is a temporary return to an inflationary mode within a larger deflationary trend - a rally in other words. No market ever moves in one direction. Confidence, and therefore liquidity, ebbs and flows.

Deflation does not mean the money supply is contracting all the time until it reaches bottom. It looks more like a jagged lightning bolt, with strong down period interrupted by weaker up periods to a recovery high, but not a new high. Deflation plays out as five steps down and three steps up (at all degrees of trend simultaneously). In other words, the pattern is fractal. The larger trend is down when rallies lead to lower highs and lower lows over a long period of time.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5793

Then by that definition....

We've been experiencing inflation (i.e. "inflationary mode") since 2009?
What's the difference between inflation and an "inflationary mode" ? This language sounds dangerously close to cookie inflation.

I thought it was an either or proposition. Deflation or inflation. You don't do both at the same time. The rise in stock and commodity markets was due to temporary return to suspension of disbelief.....not an actual change in the dynamics of credit creation.

The central banks were pissing into the wind of a larger hurricane force trend.....etc.
Last Edit: 7 months, 4 weeks ago by Viscount St. Albans.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5794

  • stoneleigh
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Viscount St Albans,

It is a tug of war of two forces. Attempts to re-inflate the money supply are fighting a headwind in terms of the fall in the value of credit instruments and the disappearance of virtual value from the bubble years. Deflation is winning (ie the net effect is deflationary), but the extent to which it is winning varies. During the last three years there have been herculean efforts to keep the credit ponzi expanding, and it has made a difference, albeit at great cost. What little has been achieved has been a pyrrhic victory, as it has set us up for a greater fall in the coming years. The reflationary ammunition has been used up, and the headwind is about to get much stronger, so the net deflation is going to get much faster and more powerful.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5795

  • JZ
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Yes, reflation is inflation by another name. It is not, however, hyperinflation.

On another note, there is a remote possibility for some form of debt forgiveness. If that were to happen on a large enough scale then consumer balance sheets could be repaired enough to rejigger an inflationary bias going forward. I like Michael Hudson's prescriptive ideas to get us back on a health track by taxing land rents. I know it's a long shot but were it to happen then I believe this deflationary event could be stopped in its tracks for good. Might be a long shot, but it does allow for another outcome out there that isn't Apocalyptic.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5796

  • Variable81
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@JZ (and Stoneleigh, should you care to comment),

Is "debt forgiveness" (i.e. debt jubilee) really a solution?

I know Steve Keen has proposed it, and I figure he knows his stuff pretty well. But I guess I still fail to understand what the difference between "debt forgiveness" and debt destruction thorough default is.

Debts are assets to creditors. If you, the debtor, owe me $100,000 and I, the creditor, "forgive" that amount... isn't the effect still deflationary? $100,000 of wealth would have just evaporated out of the economy...

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5797

@ JZ
Mortgage Debt forgiveness is very much on track.....
Ireland just proposed easing of bankruptcy laws and forcing banks to lower mortgage principal on overburdened households.....
I expect mortgage principal forgiveness is in the cards in the US as well

Of course, it's all a bit circular, because your debts are my assets, so the Irish State Bad Bank will absorb the losses on Irish Mortgage reductions (just as FHA will absorb the losses in the US). So Irish folks will have lower mortgage principal payments but lose pensions etc. as the Irish Bad Bank sinks deeper into the peat bog. Same in US.
Last Edit: 7 months, 4 weeks ago by Viscount St. Albans.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5798

  • stoneleigh
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Variable81,

Exactly. Either way the effective money supply will shrink, meaning either way is deflationary.

Steve Keen does not use the same definition of deflation that we do, which leads to confusion periodically. He uses the price definition.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5799

  • JZ
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Many in the MMT crowd do not see an insurmountable problem here. At the very least they do not see the government debt overload as anything resembling household balance sheet dilemmas. You could have targeted debt forgiveness along with aggressive and consumer targeted stimulus filling in where consumers can't, and thus a slow reflation that repair aggregate consumer balance sheets could conceivably stop the deflationary forces in their tracks, while still leaving stock markets buoyed. Bad banks could be wound down, replaced for a time by government charted banks that have the public good at heart. Doesn't mean it will happen this way but it COULD play out like this, and if it did, while not being a perfect panacea, it could buy us a considerable amount of time.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5800

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@JZ,

Forgive me if I misunderstand, but what you're proposing still sounds like deflation, albeit "strategically" and over a longer period of time.

From what I've seen/read, most bubbles pop and crash down (though in a "lightening bolt" fashion as Stoneleigh pointed out) faster than the time it took for them to build up. If you could somehow drag deflation out to be the inverse of the inflationary growth we've seen to the system since the early 1980's then perhaps it wouldn't be so painful - but the net effect would still be deflationary.

In other words, we really can't do much more inflating until we do a whole lot of deflating...

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5801

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Variable81,, debt destruction and debt forgiveness are very different. Forgiveness repairs the balance sheets of consumers and would act as a driver for demand going forward. Debt destruction is the other side of the coin and affects creditors not debtors. That part of the equation, as Michael Hudson and MMT'ers point out, is a palliative that can work, albeit imperfectly. Still, it's preferable to allowing creditors cart blanch over debtors.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5802

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Debt destruction has to happen one way or the other. It can happen where debtors are freed from their obligations or it can happen that wreckless creditors take losses from lack of due diligence and the government steps in to stop the bleeding. That can much more easily happen in the USA than in Europe monetary union.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5803

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I meant that another way outside of debtors getting a clean bill of health would be what's been happening since 2007, where creditors have been bailed out and debtors remain on the hook. That way is sure to fail us all. The former will, however, put us on the road to some form of recovery. I'm not sure if a middle ground approach will work, however. It will buy us time though.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5804

  • Variable81
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@JZ,

So "debt destruction" is when I default and do not pay back my loans, but "debt forgiveness" or jubilee would be as Keen proposed - QE for the masses - whereby the Central Banks would print money and give it to me to pay off my debts, thus repairing my balance sheet?

The only problem I see with that is that it is a form of stealth default. If the Central Bank increases the effective money supply simply so we can pay off our debts, it would result in price inflation as more dollars (instead of electronic credit) would then be chasing the same amount of "stuff".

For your consideration I found a 2011 NY Times article by Martin Hutchinson and Robert Cyran that speaks to the numerous issues that a debt jubilee could raise:

The Downside to a Debt Jubilee

Good ends do not justify bad means. That philosophical observation applies to proposals for a big American debt jubilee that are now doing the rounds. The basic idea is to slash consumer debt, which is an admirable aim for an overleveraged nation. Household debt is still 90 percent of gross domestic product, down only modestly from the 2008 peak of 100 percent. But even bank-haters should recognize that this cure might be worse than the disease.

To start, writing off debts would not necessarily increase economic growth. Every liability is also an asset, so while a dollar that is no longer required for debt repayment might add some cents to consumer spending, it is also a dollar cut out of a bank’s capital or of an investor’s net worth — subtracting from resources and confidence.

And write-offs big enough to change consumer behavior would probably be big enough to destabilize banks. The Federal Reserve or the government would need to help, presumably by injecting newly printed money as capital. Such government control is usually inefficient, and abundant printing of money increases the risk of uncontrolled inflation, which has its own way of making people feel poorer.

The issue of moral hazard also cannot be ignored. Much of the excess debt was incurred through irresponsible mortgage refinancing, which peaked in 2006 at $322 billion, representing 2.4 percent of G.D.P. The reckless use of houses as A.T.M.’s was a major factor in decapitalizing and destabilizing the American economy. Forgiving such debts will teach the wrong lesson: borrow in haste, repent never.

Finally, investors would rightly see a jubilee as an attack on property rights. That runs the risk of throwing markets into disarray and discouraging foreign investors from buying assets in the United States. Risk premiums on both debt and equity capital would increase.

There are better ways to deleverage. Higher inflation does the job more naturally, without invidious choices about whose debt got reduced. But inflation also discourages savers, weakening capital formation. The best way to get debts under control is the hard slog of paying some back and writing the rest off.
Sound money, including interest rates above inflation, would help by preserving existing capital and promoting savings. After all, capital creation, not its destruction through debt forgiveness, is what makes capitalism work.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5805

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I think the Times article grossly understates the problems facing the consumer going forward in this deflationary spiral. This paragraph of theirs is plain wrong:

"And write-offs big enough to change consumer behavior would probably be big enough to destabilize banks. The Federal Reserve or the government would need to help, presumably by injecting newly printed money as capital. Such government control is usually inefficient, and abundant printing of money increases the risk of uncontrolled inflation, which has its own way of making people feel poorer.

That's neoliberal nonsense. Destabilizing banks would not be the end of the world as Hudson and others have pointed out. Uncontrolled inflation is the least of our problems too. And uncontrolled inflation is not a necessary result of debt forgiveness. "Usually inefficient" is no argument when being faced with the biggest debt deflation in our time.

Also the moral hazard argument can be handled with strict regulation going forward. So, yes, we'd get slower growth under this umbrella, but we'd also move forward instead of backwards which is preferable to what lay ahead if we do nothing. Furthermore, do these authors feel the same way about the moral hazard attending bank bailouts?

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5806

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Variable81,

There is already target debt forgiveness. Increasing the depth and breadth of the forgiveness to help more debtors is a good and just move. Repairing mortgage debt alone would go a long way to getting consumers back on their feet. The losers would be the big money banks along with taxpayers vis a vis Freddie and Fannie. The banks can go in receivership. No biggie. The government can write off the its loss with the stroke on a keyboard. The healing can begin.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5808

pipefit -

You've made a number of interesting points, but one I'd like to take issue with is your reference to a rising GAAP annual deficit.

Unlike a cash deficit, a GAAP deficit requires no bond auction to cover, and the government pays no interest rates on said deficit. Additionally, the GAAP deficit adds zero dollars to the economy of the moment, also unlike the cash deficit.

It reminds me of the Social Security Trust Fund. There's no "there" there. Its completely notional. It represents a sum total of a future problem (or in the case of the Trust Fund, the sum total of future required additional borrowing by the Treasury from the very real bond market).

As such, if it doesn't represent real dollars spent into the economy today, how can it possibly be inflationary, much less hyper-inflationary? Unlike deficit-spent dollars which definitely CAN be price-inflationary, especially in favorite sectors such as defense, education, and healthcare.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 4 weeks ago #5818

  • Variable81
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@JZ

Sorry, but I'm still not seeing the difference beween 'debt destruction' (default) and 'debt forgiveness' (QE for the masses) save for one would be inherently deflationary while the other would be inherently inflationary.

Perhaps you can explain what you mean by "uncontrolled inflation is not necessarily a result of debt forgiveness"? The way I see it if a Central Bank prints large sums of money to "forgive" debt of we the little people and prop up asset prices (our houses), they've just inflated the amount of money in circulation by handing it over to the creditors who would then use it buy other goods and drive up those asset/good prices (result still equals price inflation).

As far as moral hazard re: bank bailouts, I can't say I agree with bailing out banks - but I think it is a bit hypocritcal to criticize bank bailouts only to turn around and suggest a bailout for the masses who borrowed more than they could afford, driving up asset prices and creating debt bubbles.*

I recognize some (most?) may disagree and point to the human suffering that could be alleviated by granting bailouts to the people, but to me that reeks of a sort of tyranny of the majority who made unwise financial decisions punishing those of us in the minority who did not (I have no debt, but had to work hard and sacrifice much to get to that level of financial security).

To give a personal example, I have many friends who have started their families and purchased homes, some even going as far as purchasing rental properties in addition to their primary residences as they view themselves to be saavy investors. Most of these friends are highly leveraged and will be wiped out should anything even remotely resembling a 2007/2008 scenario come along again.

These are friends I care about very much and have known for most of my life. But do I believe they should have some sort of debt forgiveness to save them from financial calamity? No. Do I believe they should be financially wiped out? Absolutely.**

This speaks to the concept of the moral hazard of any sort of bailout - if you provide it, you only encourage people to continue to go further into debt by making them believe society will protect them should they fall on hard times.

I've played the Cassandra and tried to warn them a million times of the dangers of leverage, cheap credit and asset bubbles but it simply does not seem to stick for most of them... and I have no right, let alone the power, to force them to act in a different manner.

I suppose it comes down to that you can warn a person not to touch something that is hot, but the only way for them to learn is to let them burn themselves. Unfortunately in this case, "burning themselves" may amount to collapsing our financial system and perhaps parts of society along with it...




* This actually makes me think I should take a look back at ancient debt jubilees and see who was actually getting bailed out back then - was it just personal debt jubilees, or were organizations/enterprises of the ancient world forgiven as well? A further thought - ancient Rome tried debt jubilees and still saw debt destruction & collapse in the end; if we've already done jubilee through bank bailouts, bankruptcy laws, etc. then perhaps debt destruction & collapse is inevitable?

** I would draw the line at the concept of "debtor's prison" or those in debt being rolled into military service, whether friend or foe... Stoneleigh often speaks of it and the concept of it frightens me deeply.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 3 weeks ago #5832

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Variable81,

I'm not dogmatic regarding possible solutions. I pretty much agree with what's been laid out by stoneleigh and Ilargi. There has been no hyperinflation, and I see no mechanism whereby we'll see anything resembling it in the future.I don't, however, shy away from exploring any action which could mitigate the pain for the masses going forward. As such I don't much care about the highly questionable moral arguments lobbed about in respect to debt forgiveness of some kind, especially when said debt was encouraged by the very government supposedly charged to look out for our best interests. The fraudulent lack of oversight by regulators alone, which allowed said bubble to grow kind of eliminates any moral component regarding consumer debt accumulation, especially in housing. Bill Black calls what happened a criminogenic lack of oversight at the highest levels of government. He understands that mortgage forgiveness would benefit many unscrupulous speculators, but that would pale in comparison to the many folks who have been collaterally damaged through little fault of their own. This form of jubilee would be only one part in a larger conversation on our living arrangement going forward. I believe structural changes are a must going forward too. I like Michael Hudson's ideas here, which essentially emasculates the extractive forces behind the FIRE economy. At any rate, the problem facing us is clear as day. For me, at least, it's time to move on to practical and realistic solutions to the mess we find ourselves in. Punishing the victim isn't one of them.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 3 weeks ago #5844

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First of all, if this post is crap, just delete it, I don't know everything, heck most times I figure I don't know anything anymore, I just tell it like I see it.

Forget debt forgiveness, they'll just pile it right back on, haha, likely at lower rates. I'd rather see government buy the homes since they already are anyways, and provide to the low income which we have plenty of. Fire the CCC back up to maintain all this government housing instead of contracting everything out at low bid which turns out to be junk. Create a health care system run by the government to compete with the private, are you poor?, then you get the government version.

Many things are causing the problems we have. Take feminism, although a beautiful thing, can we afford to give the power of independence to 50% of the worlds population, then let government pay for her food/housing/children when she only wants to screw bad boys who run off and never wanted to support a family in the first place - guess so. And, at that, he can't get a decent middle class job anyways, it went to a cheap labor country. Lol, makes my life easier, since I now need a girl the same as a fish needs a bicycle too!, and lol2, on even NPR they discuss domestic violence, mostly the guys fault, lol3, no, this is how she likes it, and she can dish it out just as bad, sorry feminist societies won't admit this, until she finally breaks you. Any intimacy or love left? pffffhhh!, I finally gave up and joined the "me" society myself. I guess ,lol4, many girls I know have practically multiple sexual partners at any time, whereas I'm like what the heck is sex?, I forgot! Certainly these creatures need some free health care, especially reproductive, and now, they got it.

Mild inflation combined with collusion and monopolistic tendencies.

I'm in IT, I make about 50k/year, my friend started in nursing about the same time I started in IT, I now make about 60k/year, she makes 100k/year plus doing the same work / same time period of employment.

Taxes for sure!::
Rent for one is only a few thousand more than the property taxes alone on a house, I can't afford wife/kids but my government can, I also can't afford the housing to house them, and the food to feed them, I guess I could work until I was dead, and get a million dollar life insurance policy for them, but why worry about that, that's what she wants, I'm not worried about my gene pool going extinct anytime soon, but she is, and that's alright with me.

Piles of money = money base. You can pile money up, the more of it you got sitting in piles, the less velocity and taxes it can conjure up, I understand corporate's are piling cash as well.

The rumors are true - Real Estate = banking cartel = interest payments = property taxes = maintenance = two income trap = money for nothing for the money pile growers. I had some RE, now that I got rid of it, I have this pile of money growing larger by the day, to be honest, I don't see it as having much value at all, I can buy all this materialistic crap, but it only pleases me temporarily.

The question regarding why is QE not reviving growth?, well the government is giving money to the banks, and they hook up the investors who buy homes and wrap these up into some kind of differentiated investment portfolio, juicing the RE market.

Interest rates!, they have been going down for 30 years, they won't shoot up unless inflation shoots up, that will be dependent on energy which we depend more on for food than ever before in history. This is the part of the equation that is the most important. The only places I see people actually working for a living is where inflation is rampant, and the energy comes from a workers back.
Last Edit: 7 months, 3 weeks ago by everything.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 3 weeks ago #5845

  • killben
Variable81,

I agree totally with your post!
I am convinced that while allowing TBTF Banks to fail would have been destructive to the world, that is the ONLY WAY to save Capitalism and also get a recovery. I am of the opinion that Capitalism need failures and swift dispensation of justice (e.g. to people like Corzine). That is the way one ensures that resources are deployed correctly. For example, if lending to housing to anyone who breathes is going to bring the house down and you are sure of not being bailed out and that whoever is responsible for the same will be sent to prison, then it is highly likely that such institution will be careful about lending. "As you sow so you reap" seems NOT TO APPLY NOW. It is more like "As banksters sow, Tax-payers reap if banskters lose, banksters reap if banksters win".

Instead intervention, malfeasance, gaming the system, spreading moral hazard in the system, propaganda, not prosecuting criminals, falsifying reports is being practiced. Can anyone in the right senses believe that this will end well?

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 3 weeks ago #5849

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Hi Folks,

Of course history never repeats but rhymes. Past 'hyperinflationary' events have been due to local currencies being isolated and inflating locally due primarily to loss of relative value. What we have today is a global economy where the dollar is the defacto reserve currency. There is no other relative global currency to lose value to (as far as I am aware the galactic credit/bars of gold pressed latinum are not available in this quadrant of the galaxy) as the euro has lost this status if it ever truly had it. Remember the dollar is the only global currency used freely in many countries around the globe, legally or otherwise as recognised 'tender'.

What is likely to happen instead is the steady depreciation and devaluation of the currency as happened to the Roman currency which was successively devalued over centuries.



The current crisis will probably see this happen over decades. Also the inflation (re; price increase not money volume - see below for definition) is likely to be in commodities, while assets crash through the floor. The scenario of houses being cheaper than a loaf of bread is not impossible. The fact that in the UK relative house prices have already crashed 60% due to a stealth devaluation of sterling, leading to foreign investment keeping local prices high .

Which suits the banks fine as it keeps their loses looking good, but keeps indigenous inhabitants priced out of the market and unable to get credit. It must also worry the banks creditors, which in the EU looks like a game of tag. The UK bank debt dwarfs Greece, owing most to Germany and Spain. If the government presses ahead with a national house building plan things could get interesting.

A better way of stimulating housebuilding, Fathom said, would be to force prices to fall back to their equilibrium level by forcing banks to repossess struggling borrowers and disclose their hidden bad debts. Bank of England money printing could "be used to recapitalise the banks". That would leave them "free to lend" and make houses more affordable again.


Yeah right... Loaf of bread or a house?
L,
Sid.
Last Edit: 3 months, 2 weeks ago by gurusid.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 3 weeks ago #5869

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The richest among us have exactly the same amount of 'money' in their bank accounts as the poorest among us have in theirs, zero. How does zero hyperinflate?

2008, over $40TT of the global 'money' supply vanished without a trace. Think about that.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 2 weeks ago #5989

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Carl wrote:

(Since) 2008, over $40TT of the global 'money' supply vanished without a trace. Think about that.


And yet, amazingly, prices for everything that people actually need and buy continue to increase, and gold and silver have doubled. Who woulda thunk?
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Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 2 weeks ago #5992

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alan2102 wrote:
Carl wrote:

(Since) 2008, over $40TT of the global 'money' supply vanished without a trace. Think about that.


And yet, amazingly, prices for everything that people actually need and buy continue to increase, and gold and silver have doubled. Who woulda thunk?


Gold and silver only have the value that they're sold or traded for. Doubling is irrelevant if the owner holds it all the way back down to--and perhaps past--its purchase price.

The best use of gold is in the form of a ring. Get a spouse, a true partner. Then the rest won't matter so much (as if it really did in the first place).

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 2 weeks ago #6007

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SteveB wrote:

Gold and silver only have the value that they're sold or traded for.

That would be true of any investment, I believe.


Doubling is irrelevant if the owner holds it all the way back down to--and perhaps past--its purchase price.

Indeed. Which is why it is not a good idea to buy at the parabolic tail end of a bull market. In gold and silver, we're years away from that point.


The best use of gold is in the form of a ring. Get a spouse, a true partner. Then the rest won't matter so much (as if it really did in the first place).

Apples and oranges -- both very good to eat.

Gold won't buy happiness, but happiness won't pay the bills.
Last Edit: 7 months, 2 weeks ago by alan2102. Reason: minor

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 2 weeks ago #6008

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gurusid wrote:
Hi Folks,
the inflation is likely to be in commodities, while assets crash through the floor. The scenario of houses being cheaper than a loaf of bread is not impossible.


Yes. It is called "biflation" -- a useful concept. Prices of food, fuel and most consumables goes up, while financial "assets", real estate, luxury goods, etc., go down. I've put together a few notes about it, here:
Inflation? Deflation? or Biflation?
alan2102.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/inflation-deflation-or-biflation/

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 2 weeks ago #6032

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alan2102 wrote: " It is called "biflation" -- a useful concept. Prices of food, fuel and most consumables goes up, while financial "assets", real estate, luxury goods, etc., go down. I've put together a few notes about it, here: Inflation? Deflation? or Biflation?"

In my opinion, biflation is not at all a useful concept. It just muddies the waters. The dynamic you are pointing to is essentially what we have been predicting at TAE all along, but you are couching it in needlessly confusing terminology. To review our position, inflation and deflation are monetary phenomena. The money supply is either expanding or contracting. Price changes are lagging indicators of monetary expansion or contraction, but are also impacted by many other factors such as local scarcity or glut, international arbitrage, input availaiblity, transport potential etc. For these reasons, looking at prices alone is not very useful. It is more important to understand causes than to look at effects, particularly when those effects are subject to confounding factors. It is also more important to understand affordability (ie prices in real terms) than to look only at movements in nominal prices.

What we have said at TAE is that the money supply will contract substantially on the collapse of credit. Prices will follow to the downside, but as purchasing power will fall faster than price for most people, everything will become less affordable (ie prices will rise in real terms even as they fall in nominal terms). As a much larger percentage of a much smaller money supply starts chasing the essentials, they will receive relative price support and will therefore be much less affordable than everything else.

Of course the value of financial assets will fall further than essential real goods. These are the very credit instruments whose collapse in value is at the heart of deflation. Their value is virtual (ie excess claims to underlying real wealth), while goods hold real value. That doesn't mean the price of real goods can't fall in nominal terms though, at least for a while. Deflation is such a powerful force that it would be expected to cause all nominal prices to drop initially, albeit not all to the same extent.

Prices have risen during the rally as a lagging indicator of 'heroic' attempts at reflation. As such, prices tell you what has been happening, not what will happen. Focusing on the money supply, particularly on the perceived value of credit instruments, is the way to see trend changes as they occur. The consquences of the trend change will play out in the real economy later.

I fully expect the nominal price of essentials to bottom early in the coming depression. This has been part of TAE's view for several years (see the 2010 version of A Century of Challenges). At first all prices fall, but over time, as essentials become scarcer and competition for them becomes fiercer, I would expect nominal prices to rise even in the face of continued deflationary depression. That would mean real prices going through the roof.

Keeping terminology clear is important to presenting a consistent argument that all discussion participants can understand. Otherwise we end up talking past each other and appearing to disagree while we are actually describing the same dynamic. Discussions here are based on monetary definitions of inflation and deflation. Biflation does not exist. Bifurcation of price movements does and is already part of our worldview.
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Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 2 weeks ago #6035

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“In my opinion, biflation is not at all a useful concept. It just muddies the waters.”

My thoughts exactly, Nicole.

Biflation is nothing but another way for people who don’t understand what inflation/deflation is, to make sense of what they see but can't explain. It doesn't help them, they need to go back to the real definitions. Moreover, terms such as these, simply because they are so wrong, make interpreting events harder, not easier. If you don’t get that the largest credit bubble in history cannot be followed by anything but the largest debt deflation in that same history, it's back to zero, and again, until you do. Inflation and deflation cannot exist simultaneously. Deflation, put simply, is the contraction of the money supply and velocity of money (which has plunged not unlike that Baumgartner guy) already.

I would add to what you write that prices of a substantial group of goods is high(er) today because a lot of zombie money (money that is not real, but "exists" by the grace of Soprano accounting standards that temporarily hold deflation at bay) has moved into them away from very poorly performing bond and stock markets (the latter still trade on very low volume).

And interestingly, that is in perfect line with what we always say, namely that down the line real goods have real value (not reflected in a particular price level, but in affordability). That’s why many investors move into food, energy etc., and that - obviously - raises prices. And that is not inflation or biflation or anything like that, it's deflation that makes people move their "money" from one "asset class" (the one deflation hits first, i.e. Treasuries) to another (oil, corn). I would add gold to that, in the sense that it is simply another way that far too many people at the same time think they have at their disposal to protect their money.
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Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 2 weeks ago #6041

  • alan2102
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ilargi wrote:
“In my opinion, biflation is not at all a useful concept. It just muddies the waters.”

My thoughts exactly, Nicole.

Biflation is nothing but another way for people who don’t understand what inflation/deflation is, to make sense of what they see but can't explain. It doesn't help them, they need to go back to the real definitions.

What you mean by "real definitions" is YOUR definitions. And that's fine. Define words as you please, for your purposes; just make certain that the definitions are clear up front, every time the words are used, when your definitions do not comport with conventional and broadly-accepted ones.

In the case of "inflation" and "deflation", the definitions found in all dictionaries and reference works, apparently without exception, are inconsistent with your definitions. I accept that you want to use your own definitions, and as I say that's fine. Just don't pretend that yours are any more "real" than others'. If anything, the situation is the opposite of that.


Inflation and deflation cannot exist simultaneously.

As conventionally defined, they can, and do; it is happening right now. Yes, I understand that by your definitions, the situation is otherwise.

Please note that I'm not saying your definitions are wrong. Maybe they're right, and far superior to others. Maybe they represent unique and brilliant insight on your part. I don't know. But I do know that they are idiosyncratic and inconsistent with reference works and general ("man on the street") understanding.

Please note also that I did not write the dictionaries, and I am not responsible for what hundreds of millions of people believe to be the definition of "inflation" and "deflation" (higher and lower prices, respectively). Your beef is not really with me, it is with them -- the dictionaries, other reference works, and common understanding.

From my post:

alan2102.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/inflation-deflation-or-biflation/

Note:

I recognize that others may have their own (atypical) definitions of “inflation” and “deflation”, but in this post I am using “inflation” to mean what dictionaries and other common reference works say it means, and what almost everyone understands it to mean: higher prices. (While its mirror-opposite, “deflation”, means lower prices.)

Vis:

www.bing.com/Dictionary in·fla·tion [ in fláysh'n ] — higher prices: an increase in the supply of currency or credit relative to the availability of goods and services, resulting in higher prices and a decrease in the purchasing power of money. Synonyms: price rises, increase, price increases, rise.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation — In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.

www.investorwords.com/2452/?inflation.html — Definition of inflation: The overall general upward price movement of goods and services in an economy.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 2 weeks ago #6042

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stoneleigh wrote:

The dynamic you are pointing to is essentially what we have been predicting at TAE all along

TAE has predicted increased prices of food, fuel, most consumables, medical services, education, most commodities, precious metals, and generally most things that people actually buy and use?


It is...more important to understand affordability (ie prices in real terms) than to look only at movements in nominal prices.

I don't know about "more" important, but it is true that the prices don't give the full picture. Continual price increases of almost everything that people actually buy and use, in daily life, does not fully reflect affordability when incomes are dropping -- as they are, modestly. The price increases are, in real (affordability) terms, even worse than they appear. But the price increases are still the main thing, by far. That could change, of course, but that is the way it is for now.


What we have said at TAE is that the money supply will contract substantially on the collapse of credit. Prices will follow to the downside

I'm having trouble correlating that with the first pull-quote, above.


but as purchasing power will fall faster than price for most people, everything will become less affordable (ie prices will rise in real terms even as they fall in nominal terms).

Well, deflationists have told me for 15 years that prices of the things mentioned will fall in nominal terms, but so far it has not happened. Maybe that will change. Maybe they will be vindicated, yet.

In any case, I'm having trouble with your statement that "The dynamic you [alan] are pointing to is essentially what we have been predicting at TAE all along". That does not seem to be the case, at all. The dynamic I am pointing to is increases in nominal [yes, nominal] prices of most common consumer goods and services, aka "inflation" as commonly defined (see reply to Ilargi, above). That's what I have expected for 15 years, that is what has happened during that time, and that is what I expect to continue for some time to come.


Prices have risen during the rally as a lagging indicator of 'heroic' attempts at reflation. As such, prices tell you what has been happening, not what will happen.

Just to be clear: I've never taken price changes to be predictive, with confidence, of further price changes. No intelligent person would think that. On the other hand, it is true that trends, once in motion, tend to continue, often for a lot longer than anyone expects. And it is evident that heroic attempts at reflation will continue indefinitely, probably with increasing intensity.


Keeping terminology clear is important to presenting a consistent argument that all discussion participants can understand.

I certainly agree with that. And as such, if you wish to use idiosyncratic definitions (e.g. of "inflation"), you must be especially careful to present your definition anew, in almost every document or discussion, in order to ensure understanding. That's a lot of work. It might make more sense just to use the conventional definitions, and make your point (regarding precursor monetary phenomena, etc.) in a different way.


Biflation does not exist.

It exists, and is happening right now, given near-universally-accepted definitions of "inflation" and "deflation" (which I understand that you reject).

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 2 weeks ago #6044

  • stoneleigh
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alan2102,

You are perpetuating, and indeed amplifying, confusion unnecessarily. Our definition of inflation and deflation is not nearly as odd as you make it sound. It is in fact the traditional definition, and is quoted by one of your sources (although the source also hedges its bets in a confusing way):

www.bing.com/Dictionary in·fla·tion [ in fláysh'n ] — higher prices: an increase in the supply of currency or credit relative to the availability of goods and services, resulting in higher prices and a decrease in the purchasing power of money. Synonyms: price rises, increase, price increases, rise.


This source points out that changes in the money supply are the cause, and price changes are the effect. We do point out our definition regularly, and our readers understand that that definition underpins discussion here. We have also explained regularly why we use this definition.

The apparent paradox of deflation is that even as prices fall, things become less affordable for most (with the exception of those who have preserved capital as liquidity). We have been pointing out that things that people use would be getting less affordable. You seem to be suggesting that this will happen at higher nominal prices, while we are saying it will happen at lower nominal prices. The important point is the affordability.

You say that prices have risen for many years. Of course they have, as we have been in an inflationary credit hyper-expansion for 30 years, and prices generally follow changes in the money supply. Prices have, however, fallen where international wage arbitrage has been a major factor, such as for electronics, which illustrates other price drivers at work. (And where nominal prices fall despite inflation, real prices are going through the floor.) These confounding factors are one reason we use our clear and precise definition of inflation. To do otherwise takes all the explanatory and predictive value out of the concept, which suits the powers that be perfectly well by the way. They don't really want people to understand the system.

As the deflationary dynamic picks up momentum, we will see nominal prices fall. We anticipate trend changes here, rather than just describing existing trends. Watch and see over the next few years.
The following user(s) said Thank You: gurusid

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 2 weeks ago #6047

  • alan2102
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stoneleigh wrote:
alan2102,
You are perpetuating, and indeed amplifying, confusion unnecessarily.

You will, I trust, forgive me if I disagree. I think "biflation" is a useful clarification, cutting through a great deal of unnecessary confusion created by this endless "inflation vs. deflation" debate. It expresses, in a single logical word, the phenomenon we now see, and the one most likely to intensify greatly in the coming years.


Our definition of inflation and deflation is not nearly as odd as you make it sound.

Consult ANY dictionary or reference work, or ask pretty much anyone anywhere, and you'll see what I mean.


It is in fact the traditional definition, and is quoted by one of your sources (although the source also hedges its bets in a confusing way):
www.bing.com/Dictionary in·fla·tion [ in fláysh'n ] — higher prices: an increase in the supply of currency or credit relative to the availability of goods and services, resulting in higher prices and a decrease in the purchasing power of money [i.e. higher prices]. Synonyms: price rises, increase, price increases, rise.


There is no "hedging of bets" there. There is a clear focus and sine qua non: HIGHER PRICES. Increase in currency supply is mentioned, but only secondary to the key characteristic, the defining phenomenon: HIGHER PRICES.

"Inflation", as defined in all reference works, and as understood by practically everyone, refers primarily not to any putative causal influence, such as currency supply, but to the bottom line, the unarguable end-of-the-day empirical phenomenon: HIGHER PRICES. The higher prices might be caused by increased currency supply; indeed, that is likely true, and I don't deny it. There is also cost-push inflation, and demand-pull inflation. But those things are a different matter: they are interpretative and speculative, not integral to the definition of the word, by the lights of almost everyone. Yes, I appreciate that you do not like this, and that you prefer a different definition, with your favored theory of cause built-in. As I said to Ilargi: your beef in this regard is not with me, but with the rest of the world.


We have been pointing out that things that people use would be getting less affordable. You seem to be suggesting that this will happen at higher nominal prices, while we are saying it will happen at lower nominal prices. The important point is the affordability.

By focusing on "affordability", you are doing, in essence, what you accuse me of doing, i.e. of glossing-over the cause of the thing, and proceeding direct to the bottom-line empirical phenomenon. And I agree with you: affordability is the key thing. The point of disagreement is that I think that affordability will be less influenced by deflation-/deleveraging-related events (including things like higher unemployment) than you do. Those things will be part of the picture, but relentlessly-increasing -- even skyrocketing -- nominal prices will be the most visible and most hurtful aspect. The cause of the affordability problem will be, in my view, more a matter of increasing prices than anything else.


Prices have, however, fallen where international wage arbitrage has been a major factor, such as for electronics, which illustrates other price drivers at work.

You're absolutely right. That IS one area where prices have gone down -- way down.


These confounding factors are one reason we use our clear and precise definition of inflation. To do otherwise takes all the explanatory and predictive value out of the concept,

Well, instead of fighting the whole world with an odd new definition, why not invent a new word, and leave the old words to be what they are? Much, much easier that way. I know this from hard experience. It is practically impossible to get people to accept an atypical definition -- I mean "people" outside of a very small group, to whom you are directly speaking. And it is tough to get even THAT tiny group to get it and stick with it! Such are the pressures of universal social acceptance of a standard definition. You can fight the dictionary, but it is like fighting city hall. Very tough. And the very moment you let up, everything will go back to the way it was.

Ask yourself: why is it so important to you to build a theory of cause into the definition of these words? Why are you not arguing with the word "price", and attempting to build a theory of cause into THAT word? Why not just let these words mean what they mean, and figure some other way to make your point?


which suits the powers that be perfectly well by the way. They don't really want people to understand the system.

You're certainly right about that.


As the deflationary dynamic picks up momentum, we will see nominal prices fall.

In some sectors, yes, we'll be seeing some real bargains:


alan2102.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/inflation-deflation-or-biflation/
[snip]
-- tony urban real estate, condos, etc.; possibly ALL
real estate
-- fancy cars
-- fancy consumer hard goods, e.g. big-screen tvs
-- stocks and bonds, mutual fund shares
-- vacations, hotels, cruises
-- most or all services (massage, bookkeeping, you
name it)
-- medical services except for clear essentials



Watch and see over the next few years.

Indeed. My hat is in the ring, as is yours. We'll see!
Last Edit: 7 months, 2 weeks ago by alan2102.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 2 weeks ago #6049

  • stoneleigh
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It is not TAE that has co-opted the term inflation. We are simply using the traditional definition, and the one it clearly make sense to use if one wants to actually understand what is going on. Many others use the same definition for the same reason. The alternative is confusion that leads to widespread ignorance as to the situation we are facing. It is that ignorance we are trying to combat. The definition underpinning discussions here will remain the same. This particular discussion is, however, over.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6052

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I perused the site for a "here's how we roll"-type message that might be pointed to when someone with Alan's perspective or a newbie visits (or is directed by one of us regulars), but found nothing suitable. (Could've missed it, of course.) Something on the "Front Page" might be nice. Otherwise, the site and discussions probably appear somewhat unwelcoming and difficult to join.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6053

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I realize it can be hard to find the big picture amid the huge amount of information that's accumulated in five years. What we need to do is to sort out the primers to make them more organized and searchable. We may be able to find the time to do this over Christmas. Time is always a challenge however when there are only two people to do such things. I would very much like for the site to be more welcoming. Hopefully the new DVDs, which should be available very soon, will fill that role.

I have a great deal of patience with newbies and am happy to explain our worldview or point to specific primers (like Inflation Deflated for instance). I have less patience with people who have commented over a number of years, as alan has, and still quibble over our use of basic definitions. Essentially, there is a limit to how many times we can go through the same loop, knowing perfectly well it will achieve nothing, especially when it happens on more than one thread simultaneously.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6054

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I'd say there's plenty material today in the Primers section (accessible from the Front Page, in the Menu bar) to explain how and why we define inflation the way we do.

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6055

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I couldn't understand how consumer prices would deflate past what they are. Consider the t shirt you can purchase the big discount stores on sale in a package for a price that works out to $1. Shipped from China. Duties paid. Store cost paid. Lets figure your cost, no matter how fast you can sew, is 1 hour of labour. How will it become lower?

The answer: We didn't pay the cost, we made use of slaves. Using the military to invade and influence countries we force others to build products below the material cost. The fact is the $1 t shirt doesn't pay for the cost of shipping, duty, and store costs. Our ability to act as terrorist to 3rd world countries does.

Case in point is Guatemala where the US government as a point of national security invaded to force lower prices of bananas. The capital city was bombed because the country had free elections and had become democratic. This seems good but the people wanted wages that would allow them to come out poverty. This would mean higher food prices for Americans. American planners saw the possible domino effect of countries trying to get fair wages crippling America. The developed world depends on depressed food prices. So the army bomb, invaded and installed a ruthless dictator - and we got low low food prices. Good for everyone!! Recently with the advent of the information act the US military admitted to this.

So how can prices on basic items go lower? They can't. We are losing our ability to invade countries to force a lower price. Historically invasions allow the pillaging and therefore instant resources are obtained but over year 2 and beyond there is a diminishing return. Many cases, in less than 5 years, the costs outweigh the benefits.

Currently there is an intent to invade and control all of the middle east - this will not succeed. When this fails many 3rd world countries will seek out independence and refuse to make lower price class goods. What would be the point you are selling the below the cost of material and labor.

BUT there is a way prices of something will deflate. Banks have figured something new out. Recall mortgage debts on mortgages more than 50% paid for. They have received more money than the initial debt but not the interest. The mortgage holder is now in bankruptcy. The bank then purchases back the property in auction for pennies on the dollar thus deflating assets in the markets.

Changing this to a economic algebra game lets see what has just happened. Suppose there are 1000 penny assets in the market and my bank owns 10 pennies and mortgages of 100 penny assets. Now lets call in the asset debts and possibly make 2 pennies. The books state we have 12 pennies in assets but the bank knows something different. They went from 10/1000 of market value to 12/902 of the market ($0.01 to $0.013). As the others do this they only increase in value.

proof this is happening this is an analyst I follow



So I will make a prediction myself. We will experience inflation/deflation a re-evaluation. Basic consumer goods will rise significantly in price while housing and luxury goods will drop. Because of governments involvement in creating money while manufacturing output dwindles we will experience classic stagflation. It is simple cause and effect and the fact we have not for years been adding value beyond our consumption.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6056

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stoneleigh wrote:
I realize it can be hard to find the big picture amid the huge amount of information that's accumulated in five years. What we need to do is to sort out the primers to make them more organized and searchable. We may be able to find the time to do this over Christmas. Time is always a challenge however when there are only two people to do such things. I would very much like for the site to be more welcoming. Hopefully the new DVDs, which should be available very soon, will fill that role.

I have a great deal of patience with newbies and am happy to explain our worldview or point to specific primers (like Inflation Deflated for instance).


Understood and appreciated, Nicole. Is there anything in particular we could do to help?

I flipped through the Primers pages looking for "'Inflation' Deflated", got to page 3 and just happened to notice it listed at the bottom under the "More Articles…" heading. A page 4 for those last three items might make them more visible.

I plan to (re?)read it.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6059

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SteveB,

What I want to do is to organize and categorize the primers, so all the finance ones (and other topics) are together and in some kind of logical progression. That way newbies have somewhere to start with where our worldview is coming from. To us and our long term regular readers it's old hat, because we've been saying the same things over and over again for a long time, but to new people it can be confusing, overwhelming and impenetrable.

Also, there are some important primers that aren't in the new primers section yet. I need to go through things to make sure everything that should be there is there.

Finally, some primers really need to be rewritten and updated. I'm hoping to get to some of this in December, as I'll be in one place for the whole month. It's a question of finding the right balance between doing administrative and presentational things versus creating new material to keep up with what's going on.

Things are about to get exciting (and not in a good way) IMO, so there's going to be a lot to write about.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6060

  • SteveB
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stoneleigh wrote:
Things are about to get exciting (and not in a good way) IMO, so there's going to be a lot to write about.


I agree.

I'll be doing some writing in December as well. Slightly different topic.

Thanks for your work, and please let me know if I can be of assistance.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6061

  • alan2102
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stoneleigh wrote:

I have a great deal of patience with newbies and am happy to explain our worldview or point to specific primers (like Inflation Deflated for instance). I have less patience with people who have commented over a number of years, as alan has, and still quibble over our use of basic definitions.

I'm not quibbling. I said that your definitions might be superior to the conventional ones. I respect the passion with which you defend them. And for my own part, I find your definitions attractive. But all that is beside the point. As I said to both you and Ilargi: the issue is between you, on the one hand, and essentially ALL dictionaries and reference works (both print and online), combined with the understanding of almost everyone, everywhere (a few exceptions noted), on the other. As I said to Ilargi: I did not write the dictionaries, and I did not persuade billions of people to accept the definitions that they do now accept. This is not about me and my "quibbling".

I made my points very clear. I would welcome your to reply to them -- at your leisure. But if you choose not to, I'll drop it.


Essentially, there is a limit to how many times we can go through the same loop, knowing perfectly well it will achieve nothing, especially when it happens on more than one thread simultaneously.

I don't know that I've ever discussed the definition of "inflation" and "deflation" with you before. If I did, I forgot. I do remember getting in to this discussion on the old latoc (doomers.us), years ago, but that did not involve you.

Also, what is this about "more than one thread simultaneously"? We're discussing this definitions issue here, and nowhere else. I posted a few things on another thread, about energy, but haven't been back to that for a few days.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6066

Gotta say, Alan is quibbling with the definition for no good reason, in my mind. The end result of TAE's forecast is the same: prices collapse. The road we travel to get there is what is at issue, and as I have also argued in the TAE comments (because I find TAE's forecast the most persuasive on the gawd-forsaken Interweb), this road does not follow a straight line and has many distracting curves that blind us to the final destination. One of these curves is the absurd notion of "biflation", or as another economics blogger has called it "quasi-deflation". Neither term is helpful. They don't tell us where we are within Kondratieff's theory of major cycles, which lead inexorably from inflation to deflation, without being bi or quasi anything.

Kondratieff's six phases of a business cycle can be summarized as follows:

Phase 1: Credit Expansion and Liquidity
Phase 2: Commodity Prices Rise
Phase 3: Economic Activity Grows
Phase 4: Early Inflation
Phase 5: Wages and Spend Slowing Down with Inflation
Phase 6: Recession / Depression / Asset Deflation

Note that after Phase 4 you are now headed into deflation, even while some prices "inflate" in value. The value in TAE's view of deflation is that by only looking at prices, we completely miss the fact that we are on the deflationary, declining side of the mountain, which leads to one very unavoidable bottom way, way, way down.

There has ALWAYS been debates over how to define inflation and deflation, Alan. Economists can't agree, and never will. Clearly, however, the dominant economic group-think about the forces of money and credit have failed us. Many smart, progressive economists are demanding that mainstream economics change their definitions too, such as Steve Keen. Please feel free to argue with Professor Keen as well about the definition of inflation or deflation and maybe he'll choose to call it something else entirely to satisfy your inflexibility, like, maybe call it Pluto, I don't know. I don't see the point of that at all, though.

We are in deflation because the FORCES are pressuring prices DOWN, even while there can be periods of rising prices in SOME goods or services. That is deflation, and and all that is left is convincing people that is the case and waiting to see how and when the worst of it comes to pass. Coming up with new terms for such an age-old phenomenon will serve no one well and distracts us from the challenge at hand.

Let's please keep in mind that NEVER, in any inflationary or deflationary cycle, will you find that all prices for all things rise or fall in lockstep with the overarching trend at the same time. If you were to adopt such a rigid outlook in YOUR definition of inflation or deflation, we would never, ever be in either one. That isn't useful at all either. So maybe you're the one who needs to come up with a new word for what you're trying to describe. How about "life"? Fact: we are either heading to one or the other macro-direction, even while there is fractal noise on the journey, making the call murky UNTIL AFTER THE FACT. I have no interest in sitting passively until after the fact when so much is at stake, leaving myself ill-prepared for the worst of either trend.

So even while some prices may be falling, we can still be in an inflationary cycle, and should take certain precautions. On the other hand, we can see prices rising and still be at the edge of a deflationary collapse. Just because TAE has had the good sense to go deep into the failure of modern economics and find the real roots that presage infaltion/deflation doesn't mean they are now required to call it something different for the sake of simplistic mainstream journalism, or to cater to Bernanke's hopes that people will read an inflationary trend and start shopping, or to appease a cadre of failed Post-Keynesian economists.

Deflation means the forces in play are pressuring prices DOWN, even while the prices might be momentarily buoyed up. If you think that the pressures are the opposite, and will send prices sky high, well then, you are actually calling for inflation. A whole other kettle fish. And entirely different argument. Go ahead and write about that on your blog. I'd be curious to read your reasoning.
Last Edit: 7 months, 1 week ago by skipbreakfast.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6067

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Something I've learned from the blogs.

If you spend money that you don't have, because you borrowed it or printed it, it will appear as if you are rich and prices will go up to take your money. ( Inflation)

We have been spending money that we don't have for 30 years.
(inflation)

I recall $1,000/month gave a life style that today $100,000/month does not.

I think that we are in a RESET mode.

The super committees, (rich people), spent Billions of dollars on the election so that they would be sitting at the table to make sure that any future legislation would not be harmful to their interest.

If the gov. lowers spending and gives less to the spenders, (poor), then there will be less profits from that source of income.

The rich will have to raise prices to maintain profit margin for their "New yatch fund".

If the gov. tries to reduce loopholes in the tax code then there will be less profits from that source of income.

The rich will have to raise prices to maintain their "New yatch fund".

If the gov. increases taxes on the rich then they will raise prices to maintain their "New yatch fund".

See... its nice to be rich ... you get to write the new legislation and can keep your "New yatch fund" growing.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6075

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The blunt definition of inflation as meaning only rising prices is not "conventional". It's a recent development. Prior to more modern times, devaluation and depreciation were used for what inflation is now used for. And for good reason.

The way inflation is presently defined serves simply to make and keep people stupid. That may not have been the intention behind the change in definition, but it certainly fits a purpose.

Using the term inflation without a direct connection to the size of the money supply makes zero sense. We can all understand that rising prices in a rising money supply will both originate in, and lead to, a completely different situation than rising prices in a falling money supply. Yet, the "stupid definition" makes it impossible to see this. Which is exactly what makes it stupid.

Likewise, talking about inflation without establishing an immediate link to the velocity of money makes no sense. It doesn't mean anything, and therefore keeps you ignorant. Again, we can all get that price rises in a slowing velocity of money are not identical to those in an accelerating one.

That is why both the money supply and the velocity of money must necessarily be part of any serious definition of inflation and deflation. Without them, no such definition serves any purpose. Other than keeping people stupid, that is.

Of course it would be much easier for Nicole and I to go along with what too many others say. The fact that what they say is so nonsensical, however, makes that impossible for us. Because we're not here to keep our readers stupid; we're here to add to their understanding, not to subtract from it.

I've written about this topic a hundred times if I wrote about it once, and there's simply not enough time to keep on regurgitating it. That's why we have Archives and Primers sections. But I'll give you one example that I noticed this week (I've addressed it before) and that stands out:

The press here in Holland, where I'm staying for a few months, reported that inflation was up, and that was largely because VAT had been raised, I think from 19% to 21%. That is blatant nonsense for a simple reason: It would mean that any government that is worried about inflation can solve the problem with one simple action: lowering taxes. Even if it would double the money supply at the same time. And spend it at breakneck speed into the real economy. If that is not clear enough as an explanation for the folly of the definition of inflation as rising prices only, I don't know what is.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6079

  • jal
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That is why both the money supply and the velocity of money must necessarily be part of any serious definition of inflation and deflation. Without them, no such definition serves any purpose. Other than keeping people stupid, that is.


ilargi, I do understand what you have been saying. Its not just price.

I was trying to point out, that this time there are some rich people who have a strong influence on the prices we pay for goods. This was not present or was not obvious in an inflationary economy.
Lets be clear on who is getting the most and benefiting the most with the 46% overspending.


As Karl been constantly repeating, the free shit army won again.

(bankers, insurance, ponzi players)


We can all understand that rising prices in a rising money supply will both originate in, and lead to, a completely different situation than rising prices in a falling money supply.


Some people are enjoying a rising money supply and can modify their action to keep the money flowing to their coffers.

The majority of the people are helpless and are facing a falling money supply and rising prices.
The number of people on food stamps are the obvious witnesses.

www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-10/foodstamps-surge-most-one-year-new-all-time-record-delayed-release
Foodstamps Surge By Most In One Year To New All Time Record, In Delayed Release

One glance at the number reveals why: at 47.1 million, this was not only a new all time record, but the monthly increase of 420,947 from July was the biggest monthly increase in one year.


Being on foodstamp does not make you a winner when you are in a deflation or an inflation environment.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6080

  • ilargi
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"Some people are enjoying a rising money supply and can modify their action to keep the money flowing to their coffers.

The majority of the people are helpless and are facing a falling money supply and rising prices. "


Money supply is not a term used for individuals and/or groups of people. It applies only to entire nations/societies. Hence, yours is not a valid picture.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6090

  • jal
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Inflation is a tax on ONLY those who cannot increase their income to be equal or greater the rate of inflation.

Those would include people on foodstamp, people getting no raises or less raises than inflation and those with income/savings earning an interest that is less than inflation.

If you want to keep your standard of living then you have two option.
1. Cut your wasteful spending
2. Increase your income.
If you cannot do either then ...


Deflation devalues ONLY assets of the people who are disposing/selling their assets.

If you are on foodstamps, you got no assets and no money to obtain cheap assets that are for sale.

I'm not going to quibble with the definitions.

The effects of inflation or deflations will impact individuals differently depending on their position on the economic scale.

Our economic system has not been structured for the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

There are very few sister Theresa and none of them are in position to get rid of our system and to start a new better system.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 7 months, 1 week ago #6113

  • jal
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I’m trying to get an understanding of what is happening and what could be happening to the USA economy.
The following links seem to give an accurate picture.
Budgets are proposed income and expenses.
“The Cliff” is a proposed budget.
I think that it would be better if we thought of a daddy telling 10 children that they are spending more money than daddy is making.
Nobody will volunteer to reduce their spending.
Since making more income will not happen,
Who or what will force the spending cuts?
Should we ask the Greeks?


market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=213787

The "New Normal" In Pictures


www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2012/11/Fiscal%20Cliff%20Graphic.jpg

US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 5 months, 3 weeks ago #6373

  • Lem
Deflation. Oh my goodness. In terms of what? In terms of gold (and as what the dollar used to be in 1929--gold), we certainly do have deflation over the past 12-years. If food were money...yes, there's deflation. But in terms of fiat paper money or promises to pay nothing? Look..once I see my food prices coming down, then I can chart a trend that's worth considering. Since the 1940s, I think we've only had two years of non-inflation. So...deflation? Do you think that the FED and its IMF master will allow it? If they do..then what do they do when the black market or OTC barter on a grand scale replaces these institutions that the Rothschild dynasty has worked so hard to put in place over the past 100+ years? Not too hard these days with computers. Do they care if a quasi gold-money or bit coin-like system on steroids replace their unreliable system?? Already, OPEC members are privately dealing in gold and palletized cash to bypass the oil quotas. If deflation is to occur (in terms of paper promises to pay nothing), it is because the IMF/BIS masters of the universe intend it. Hey look...keystrokes..it's that easy. Pretend I work at the Fed as a typist of numbers.. $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. How much is that? Hell if I know, but I just "un-deleveraged" the entire solar system. Heck, might as well be the entire galaxy, with mere keystrokes, an easy method to MIMIC wealth creation.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 5 months, 2 weeks ago #6422

  • SteveB
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Just learned that his majesty is coming to town:

www.fordschool.umich.edu/events/calendar/1447/

Don't know whether I'll bother to get a ticket, watch the webstream, or chop kindling.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 4 months, 1 week ago #6626

  • Rapala
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Hello everyone - 1st post. (and sorry for bumping an oldish article but it seemed most relevant one)

I have read and reread this fascinating article to try and make sure I am understanding it fully. It really is a critical issue for me as most of my savings are in gold and I am trying to decide whether to get into cash or not.

My understanding from it is that all the trillions the FED is printing will do nothing to spur inflation because a) banks are just using the money to increase their reserves as they do not have the appetite for risky loans and b) consumers are wary themselves of taking out new loans and are currently trying to pay off debt.

This means that all this money has the same effect as if they printed it and then just buried it. ie. close to nothing

However the thing I don't understand is that this has been going on for 5 years and yet we are still seeing inflation. This article on zerohedge shows how money supply expansion does indeed have a matching cpi correlation.

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-08-10/inflation-m2-and-velocity-money

So is this trend just temporary or is there another way to explain rising cpi index?

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 4 months, 1 week ago #6628

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Rapala wrote:
So is this trend just temporary or is there another way to explain rising cpi index?


Hi Rapala,

If inflation is happening at all, it's temporary. Deflation has been underway for more than a decade. Look at a graph of any financial asset in terms of gold, i.e., "real money", relative to dollar-denominated prices in order to see this. CPI rising does not equal inflation, technically speaking. It might help to read Nicole's articles on deflation/inflation.

The Dow topped, S&P is topping today, and the NASDAQ is only a week or so behind. European markets are already headed downward. PM are headed generally downward as well, but they aren't likely to lose as much value as financial assets, as I understand it (won't reach 0, in any case).

Everything's relative when it comes to prices, so your gold will look good from one angle but not another as events unfold. For the next few years or so, cash will be king (as Nicole has repeatedly informed us).
Last Edit: 4 months, 1 week ago by SteveB.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 4 months, 1 week ago #6629

  • stoneleigh
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Rapala,

Prices rise as a lagging indicator of changes in the money supply. The price rises we are seeing were baked in the cake thanks to earlier inflation. IMO (on balance of probabilities as always) we are about to see a major shift from 'heroic' attempts at reflation to accelerating monetary contraction. Insiders are selling at a time when we have seen an unnatural lack of volatility in the markets for some time. Sentiment is at an optimistic extreme. These are all powerful sell signals. Once the markets turn, liquidity contracts on loss of confidence. Prices will follow to the downside, albeit not immediately. Affordability will keep getting worse however, as purchasing power will be falling faster than price (not because money will be losing value - quite the opposite in fact - but because almost no one will have any). Cash is king in a deflation. Preserving capital as liquidity allows you to preserve your freedom of action. It amounts to holding on to a handful of choices to make later, at a time when you have a lot more opportunities and a lot more information as to what would be the appropriate choices to make.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 4 months ago #6630

  • Rapala
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Thank you for your responses Steve and Nicole, you have greatly helped in my decision making.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 4 months ago #6652

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SteveB wrote:
Rapala wrote:
So is this trend just temporary or is there another way to explain rising cpi index?


Hi Rapala,

If inflation is happening at all, it's temporary. Deflation has been underway for more than a decade. Look at a graph of any financial asset in terms of gold, i.e., "real money", relative to dollar-denominated prices in order to see this.

Defined THAT way, then yes, deflation certainly does prevail! Prices are collapsing in terms of gold and silver. Have been for the past 12 years -- and will probably continue to do so for at least another 5 years. In terms of dollars, it is a different story. The only thing that dollars buy more of is real estate.


The Dow topped

We shall see. Not to over-hype Nadeem Walayat (marketoracle.co.uk), who I've mentioned here a few times recently, but he is a smart cookie* and quite accurate, generally; he says that the Dow will take a hit this summer, perhaps back to 12,000, then up up and away to new highs in 2014, possibly as high as 20,000 by 2017: www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article38931.html

Yes, I know, not the usual fare here at TAE! But who knows? This is a crazy world, for sure. It will be interesting to watch it all unfold. I will bump this thread on a yearly basis and we'll see whose predictions are most accurate.


PM are headed generally downward as well, but they aren't likely to lose as much value as financial assets, as I understand it (won't reach 0, in any case).

Won't reach zero? Are you sure?

................................

* smart enough to publish Ilargi's stuff, so that has to count for something, right?
Last Edit: 4 months ago by alan2102.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 4 months ago #6653

  • alan2102
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Rapala wrote:
most of my savings are in gold


Smart person.

You are rich, but the world has not quite recognized it yet. It will, soon.

Be sure it is physical metal.
Last Edit: 3 months, 3 weeks ago by alan2102.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 3 months, 3 weeks ago #6713

  • alan2102
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alan2102 wrote:
Not to over-hype Nadeem Walayat (marketoracle.co.uk), who I've mentioned here a few times recently, but he is a smart cookie* and quite accurate, generally; he says that the Dow will take a hit this summer, perhaps back to 12,000, then up up and away to new highs in 2014, possibly as high as 20,000 by 2017: www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article38931.html


In case anyone is interested, Walayat just released a greatly expanded version of this writeup in pdf form, available here:
www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article39189.html
direct link to the pdf, which may or may not work (without signing up for the newsletter):
www.marketoracle.co.uk/pdf-d/Stocks-Stealth-Bull-Market-2013-by-Nadeem-Walayat.pdf

Again, it will be more than a little interesting to see just what transpires over the next 5 years. Inflation? Deflation? Stagflation? Collapse? Business as usual? Who knows? I'll bump this thread yearly at least for an update.
Last Edit: 3 months, 3 weeks ago by alan2102.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 2 months, 1 week ago #7074

  • SteveB
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SteveB wrote:
Rapala wrote:
So is this trend just temporary or is there another way to explain rising cpi index?
The Dow topped, S&P is topping today, and the NASDAQ is only a week or so behind. European markets are already headed downward. PM are headed generally downward as well, but they aren't likely to lose as much value as financial assets, as I understand it (won't reach 0, in any case).


That was obviously a premature call. However, the market is now heading downward. Tomorrow should begin a third wave, which is likely to be steep.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 2 months, 1 week ago #7090

  • SteveB
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SteveB wrote:
SteveB wrote:
Rapala wrote:
So is this trend just temporary or is there another way to explain rising cpi index?
The Dow topped, S&P is topping today, and the NASDAQ is only a week or so behind. European markets are already headed downward. PM are headed generally downward as well, but they aren't likely to lose as much value as financial assets, as I understand it (won't reach 0, in any case).


That was obviously a premature call. However, the market is now heading downward. Tomorrow should begin a third wave, which is likely to be steep.


And now yet another curveball: looks like this has been an undershoot of a fourth wave, now heading up in wave one of five (since a new high was reached in the S&P 500, negating the second wave possibility).

Watching the stock market in this context has been very interesting and a lesson in patience, among other things. It seems that the knowledge of what's to come (eventually—soon enough, but not necessarily immediately) leads to a bias toward the scenario that would play out earliest.

I'm also wondering if the additional time to prepare for the reversal will make a difference for anyone who hasn't initiated changes yet.

DOW at 14,866 2 months, 1 week ago #7095

  • alan2102
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How d'ya like that DJIA, hitting record high after record high, week in, week out, for months? That 85 billion per month that Benny and the Ink Jets been puttin out ain't fer nuthin', ya know!

investing.money.msn.com/investments/stock-charts/?symbol=%24US%3aDJIA&pt=4

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 2 months, 1 week ago #7096

  • ilargi
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How d'ya like that DJIA, hitting record high after record high, week in, week out, for months? That 85 billion per month that Benny and the Ink Jets been puttin out ain't fer nuthin', ya know!


It's called zombie money, and there's no better way to put it then caveat emptor.

Re: US Hyperinflation Is A Myth 2 months, 1 week ago #7097

ilargi wrote:
How d'ya like that DJIA, hitting record high after record high, week in, week out, for months? That 85 billion per month that Benny and the Ink Jets been puttin out ain't fer nuthin', ya know!


It's called zombie money, and there's no better way to put it then caveat emptor.


For which one? The owner of the zombie money, or the buyer of the stocks fleeing the zombies?
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