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  • in reply to: Debt Rattle June 3 2020 #59510



    A black guy murdered by looters. I wonder how the MSM will deal with this – ignore it?

    in reply to: Debt Rattle June 2 2020 #59474


    Looking at the current unrest in the States I can’t help thinking that after the next election there are going to be a LOT of EXTREMELY UPSET people, whoever wins. I wonder what the outcome will be?

    in reply to: Debt Rattle June 2 2020 #59456



    I became interested in Spain when I read that were using HCQ widely for treatment and as a prophylactic.

    On May 26th 260 new deaths were reported. In the six days following there were 8 deaths reported IN TOTAL! [NONE yesterday]

    While I was hoping to see some improvement these figures are almost unbelievable. Literally! I would like to see some confirmation that these figures are genuine.

    Even so, perhaps the UK in particular should take note.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 29 2020 #59338



    UK 324
    ITALY 97
    SPAIN 2

    Which country has widespread use of HCQ?

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 29 2020 #59330



    The campaign against Huawei started [I believe] when they refused to install an NSA back-door, also it uses strong encryption which the NSA find difficult to break.

    There was an accusation that the equipment had a Chinese back-door but MI6 in the UK checked the code and found no such thing, so declared it okay to use.

    I am sure any 5G equipment produced by Western ‘democracies’ WILL have an NSA beck-door.

    Britain is asking the West to pay more for 5G AND be bugged by the NSA!

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 28 2020 #59298



    India 3
    Costa Rica 2
    Australia 4
    South Korea 5
    Argentina 11
    Turkey 53
    Israel 31


    U.S. 312
    U.K. 558

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 28 2020 #59290



    One thought would be if patients are in hospital after being treated with HCQ then the treatment was given too late! How many AVOIDED being in hospital because ther WERE treated?

    Australia is one of those countries which use HCQ as standard and consequently have very low death rate [Although it could be because their average social distancing is 5 miles!!!]

    It is surprising that the Guardian is questioning this. Perhaps they are coming round to the idea that people should live rather than die without HCQ treatment, just to prove Trump ‘wrong’!

    Interesting article from AAPS :

    FDA Bureaucrat Brags He Blocked Physician Prescribing of Hydroxychloroquine in Early COVID-19

    Gloomy article [sort of] from Egon von Greyerz about the consequences of lockdowns :


    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 26 2020 #59225


    The virus has so far killed 0.00446% of the global population! Up from 0.00445% yesterday! The horror!

    Governments panic!


    WHO – Gosh, the side-effects must be awful if they are worse than gasping for air, organ failure and death!

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 25 2020 #59195



    Russia used another anti-malarial drug to treat the virus from the beginniing [Mefloquine I think], plus some HCQ. Reports seem to suggest HCQ is being used more than it was.

    The Russians have widespread testing so may be picking up more cases than other countries.

    Their death rate at 1% of reported cases is to be envied. Okay, so to be attacked because not enough Russians are dying!

    ‘Reported cases’ is a fantasy figure which usually means someone needed medical attention. There have probably been over 5 million infections in the UK alone!

    In context, assuming an average lifespan of 70 there will have been about 45 million deaths in the world so far this year. 7.8 billion/70 gives 114 million expected deaths worldwide for the whole year.

    Add more for all those who will die because of the lockdowns.

    The virus has so far killed 0.00445% of the global population!

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 21 2020 #59058



    In the UK health professionals expect more deaths from cancer than covid deaths due to lack of treatment.
    The lack of routine screening for various ailments will result in thousands of deaths
    Lack of surgery and other normal hospital treatments will result in thousands of deaths
    It is estimated an additional 1.5 million will die of TB due to interruptions in vaccinations
    Just being without a job will result in additional deaths for multiple reasons

    There is this bizarre idea that ONLY deaths from C19 matter, even if lockdowns cause more deaths for other reasons. Also, the disease is so widespread that lockdowns can only slow infections, not prevent them. At some point everyone will be exposed to the virus [or may already have been!].

    To compare Sweden with ‘lockdown’ countries you need to add deaths caused DUE TO THE LOCKDOWNS.

    Thinking about it, this is an example of the ‘trolley problem’!


    Why does no-one mention Japan? Like Sweden it has no lockdowns BUT has low infection rates and low death rates. The main difference seems to be that almost everyone wears face masks!


    Anecdotal : A friend said someone he knows had an elderly relative taking blood-thinners [Warfarin]. She fell over and was taken to hospital but bled to death. Her death was put down as COVID-19!

    My friend said the NHS receives 3,000 GBP for any death in the hospital, but 39,000 GBP IF they die from COVID-19. I had never heard of this so do not know if it true.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 13 2020 #58713



    Extracts from the article posted below :

    But other nations that used basic common sense have fared so much better than us. The following comes from Vanity Fair…

    ” The day before yesterday, 21 people died of COVID-19 in Japan. In the United States, 2,129 died. Comparing overall death rates for the two countries offers an even starker point of comparison with total U.S. deaths now at a staggering 76,032 and Japan’s fatalities at 577. Japan’s population is about 38% of the U.S., but even adjusting for population, the Japanese death rate is a mere 2% of America’s.

    This comes despite Japan having no lockdown, still-active subways, and many businesses that have remained open—reportedly including karaoke bars, although Japanese citizens and industries are practicing social distancing where they can. Nor have the Japanese broadly embraced contact tracing, a practice by which health authorities identify someone who has been infected and then attempt to identify everyone that person might have interacted with—and potentially infected. So how does Japan do it?”

    It is actually very simple how the Japanese were able to accomplish this.

    Virtually everyone in the entire country is wearing a mask when they go out in public.

    Yes, it is just that simple.

    In addition, a number of studies have found that mortality rates are much, much lower for those that have a sufficient level of Vitamin D in their systems.

    Ultimately, we could have avoided so much pain and suffering if everyone had just been willing to wear masks and if everyone had been taking plenty of Vitamin D.

    But instead of focusing on these basic common sense solutions, the mainstream media continues to push the fear button, and now Congress is considering a bill which would spend 100 billion dollars “to create an army of contact tracers”…

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 12 2020 #58684


    It’s amazing when you think about it – two whole continents, North America and Europe, totally incapable of making PPE equipment!

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 11 2020 #58645



    The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) say that HCQ can help at least 90% of C19 sufferers, probably more if the treatment is started as soon as the patient develops severe symptoms.

    Hydroxychloroquine Has about 90 Percent Chance of Helping COVID-19 Patients

    One treatment from a New York doctor was :

    Zinc sulfate, 220 milligrams once a day, five days.
    Hydroxychloroquine, 200 milligrams twice a day, five days.
    Azithromycin, 500 milligrams once a day, five days.

    There seems to be two main reasons for the campaign against HCQ. The first is from those who hate Trump and do not this to be used because he said it could help. The second is from those with links to pharma who want a chance to make money out of C19, and possibly to certain oligarchs who have their own agenda. In my opinion deliberately withholding treatment using HCQ is manslaughter at the very least!

    Again from the AAPS, an article about Remdesvir vs, HCQ :

    A Tale of Two Drugs: Money vs. Medical Wisdom

    A link to links covering antibody tests as well as info on ZINC, HCQ and AZN :

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 10 2020 #58601



    In the Winter of 2014/15 [in the UK] there was a severe form of the common flu.

    40,000 people died.

    As with C19 it was mostly the elderly with other health issues.

    I don’t remember any fear, panic or lockdowns!


    I was wondering about my own risk and wanted figures on age of death and contributary health issues.


    The only figures I could find for the UK were when the number of deaths was 1,132, nothing more recent. Another set of figures was based on Chinese data from Feb 11th!

    From that original UK article:

    Age Deaths per million IN THAT AGE GROUP [March?]
    80+ 219 512 232
    60-79 28 100 44
    40-59 19 15 9
    20-39 5 1 1
    0-19 0 0 0

    Similarly the average age of death. The only figures I have seen are from articles I read and are Italy [78] and Germany [82]. This is why I think of the average age of death as being 80.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 10 2020 #58599



    There seems to be a general move to write out the importance of Russia’s importance in the defeat of Hitler.

    Holocaust deniers are [rightly] criticised for their views, but denying the importance of Russia is exactly the same!

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 9 2020 #58563


    VITAMIN D [Part two]

    From the article above : ‘skin pigmentation also reduces natural vitamin D synthesis’.

    I wonder whether this explains, at least in part, the effect of the virus on those of African descent [in the UK], and others such as people from the Indian, Bangladeshi and Pakistani communities.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 9 2020 #58562



    Interesting : Study correlating data from 20 countries indicates vitamin D could be useful for combatting the worst effects of the virus, eg. death!

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 6 2020 #58394



    Those in authority who try and prevent the use of HCQ in the treatment of C19 should be arrested for manslaughter. They can explain their evidence at their trials.

    We are talking about something serious, it should be treated seriously. Their actions have consequences : death!

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 4 2020 #58295



    The virus started in a lab in Wuhan. There is even an SF book exactly describing that scenario. What more proof do you need?


    – A Cambridge team has tracked previous cases of the virus to southern China in September.
    – In the US during the last flu season many elderly died of pneumonia where the doctors were at a loss as to explaining how they caught it. In retrospect it seems very possible it was COVID-19
    – There were outbreaks in South Korea and Japan which could not possibly have come from China, but could have come from the US
    – There appear to be cases in several European countries which appeared last December and before

    Certainly not a slam/dunk for the lab in Wuhan, but it is now about politics, so reality and rationality are forfeit.

    There is also the battle of the strains!

    One friend [Guardian reader] says there is only one strain globally. Another friend says there are 31!

    I have read one article which claims the variations of the virus are minimal, a difference in one or two base pairs, so there is in effect a single strain.

    Another article suggested the virus in Wuhan and Italy are so different the Italian virus could not have evolved from the Wuhan strain, and that they must both have evolved from an earlier strain.

    There is a database containing the genomes of the various strains so the truth should already be known, but politics…

    If there is a single strain then a vaccine seems a plausible idea. If the virus has mutated into very different strains then a vaccine would only work against a limited number of strains.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 3 2020 #58235



    The argument about Sweden is false.

    If for every 200 infections one person dies then it does not matter over what period it happens.

    A lockdown can seem to lower the death rate by SLOWING the rate of infection but does not prevent the infections happening eventually. If Sweden has three times the number of infections it will have three times the number of deaths. For surrounding countries those deaths will go on longer.

    The virus is not going away and at some point you WILL be exposed to it. Having a miserable life while trying to delay the inevitable is one option, but quality of life becomes an issue.

    New York City [ 1 in 200 ]

    NYC shows 19.9% of population with antibodies.

    Population 18.8 million, deaths 18,900. Say 1 death per thousand population, ~20% infection rate so 1 death for every 200 people infected – 0.5%

    ALSO 19.9% of 18.8 million gives 3.74 million people infected JUST in NYC!

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 2 2020 #58191


    “Additionally, 12.3% of New York state has tested positive for novel coronavirus antibodies, Gov. Andrew Cuomo said at a briefing on Saturday.

    As a whole, 19.9% of New York City has tested positive for antibodies, the preliminary study found. At 27.6%, the Bronx is reporting the highest rate of infection, which Cuomo said the state would further investigate.”

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 2 2020 #58181



    Almost all reporting on the virus is about generating fear, and the best way too do this is ignorance.

    ‘Officially’ there are about 3.4 million cases globally, but we know there have been that many in the UK alone. Scaling up the Stanford result suggested 30 million Americans had been infected at that time. Antibody tests in the States seem to be about 14% positive, implying about 50 million infections. [It really irritates me when any article assumes the ‘official’ figures are meaningful in any way]

    What I would love to see is a distribution chart based on age of death with this disease. I would suggest it would be almost completely flat until the age of 70 when it would rise to a large peak at 80. The data is available but would give the ‘wrong’ impression!

    We know for those under 50 the chance of dying would be 5 in 100,000. There are likely more deaths than this because of lockdowns! Why would these people be in lockdown. To slow transmission?

    We know it is not possible to eliminate the disease. The Chineses failed even with their drastic actions.

    We know infection does not give immunity so people will be reinfected. We know a large number are asymptomatic. We know the virus can survive up to 60C so summer will not prevent infection. Put together it suggests the disease will become endemic.

    Either lockdowns remain in place forever or they are pointless. All of us will be exposed to the virus at some point, so it is just delaying the inevitable.

    The global population is estimated at 7.8 billion. With an average lifespan of 70 this would mean for the year-to-date there will have been about 37 million deaths. Deaths from the virus is about 0.6%! Some may claim it is in ‘addition’ so is significant, but the average age at death seems to be around 80 so not really.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle May 1 2020 #58129


    Why not trust the people?

    The ‘official’ figures are only those who have been tested with swabs, normally at the point when hospital treatment is required. Totally ignored are those people who have it but do not require hospital treatment.


    By only including the very sick as having the virus the death rate can appear very high making the virus as scary as possible, which seems to be the only reason for this approach. It can be used to justify anything!

    For example, I mentioned the NHS hotline in the UK had 1.7 million people registered as having had the virus but were never included in official figures. Antibody testing typically shows that infections are fifty times or more than the ‘official’ rate.

    A new virus tracking app in the UK has 2.6 million users. They are encouraged to enter details daily, whether they are well or not, to give a dynamic view of the virus . The app asks for historical data so they can track the progress of the virus back to January, and possibly December.

    2.6 million people is only a fraction of the population, but is more than enough to model the disease for the whole population.The app shows the virus peaking at 2.1 million cases on April 1st, falling to 350,000 earlier this week.[UK]

    An app like this would be useful for any country. It gives a daily snapshot of the virus and pulls in historical data to show its’ development. It is not possible to test everyone with swabs daily, but we CAN ask people how they feel!

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 30 2020 #58098


    Because Trump said hydroxychloroquine could be useful in fighting the virus people are DESPERATE to ‘prove’ it is ineffective, whether it is or not!

    A recent study used chloroquine di-phosphate for a couple of days with NO zinc supplement. Not surprisingly the patients did not improve, but is now being touted as ‘proof’ that hydroxychloroquine is ineffective! [Chloroquine di-phosphate is normally used to clean fish tanks!]

    Some would prefer people to suffer and die rather than have hydroxychloroquine being useful in the treatment of the virus, purely because of their hatred of Trump! [Trump mentioned another treatment using UV light shone directly into the lungs. The company’s Twitter account was suspended and their YouTube video removed!]

    Some time ago Bolsonaro in Brazil declared there would be no lockdown and the virus patients would be treated with hydroxychloroquine. He had secured supplies of the essential ingredients for making hydroxychloroquine from India.

    Now Bolsonaro is ‘in trouble’, he has sacked his health minister, and there are thousands of virus deaths in Brazil. It crosses my mind that perhaps his approach was sabotaged by the health minister. I would certainly like to know exactly how Braziians are treatinhg their patients.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 24 2020 #57823



    I read an article about a doctor who claimed the problem was not the lungs, but that the red blood cells lose their ability to transport oxygen. He goes on to say that in this case intubation was the wrong treatment. US hospitals receive a lot more money if the patient is intubated!

    NB1 : I thought injections of vitamin C were given to help red blood cells
    NB2 : We are 4 months in, why is this kind of discussion still valid?

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 23 2020 #57761


    I did see an article [I can’t find it again] suggesting Democrats are celebrating that a small study concluded that hydroxychloroquine was ineffective against the virus.

    The joy comes from the idea that a cheap drug [plus zinc] could cure the diseases – purely because Trump said it could help!


    Sean Hannity reads Mike Pence a letter from unidentified doctor detailing a drug “regimen” the doctor claims prevents coronavirus deaths

    Hannity: “Hydroxychloroquine, 200 milligrams twice a day, five days. Azithromycin, 500 milligrams once a day, five days. Zinc sulfate, 220 milligrams once a day for five days … His results, we have had zero deaths”

    NB. This does not say whether treatment should start only when serious symptoms appear

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 22 2020 #57715


    The WHO says only 2% to 3% of global population have antibodies. That is a minimum of 140 million to a maximum of 210 million.

    With 177285 deaths and 140 million infections the rate of death is a MAXIMUM of 0.127% of infected people!!!

    ‘Confirmed’ cases : about 2.5 million! Almost a factor of 60 out AT LEAST!!!

    Average age of death in Italy : 78
    Average age of death in Germany : 82

    We know the effects of the lockdown will be dire, affecting the global economy for years, destroying the lives of millions in every country. Given the above, lockdowns are not warranted in any way as the effects will be far more disastrous than the disease.

    The problem is not the ‘pandemic’ but the reaction to it.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 21 2020 #57643


    Here’s a fun idea.

    ALL billionaires loses ALL their wealth over the value of one billion dollars! The money gained is fed back to the bottom 50% of the population.

    Not exactly a hardship on these people.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 20 2020 #57580



    Obviously 20 million tests a day is inadequate. The whole population needs testing once a week.

    We know from the official figures that one in five of those infected will die [concluded cases].

    This is obviously serious so anyone infected MUST be removed from society so they can not infect others. Self isolation is not sufficient so internment camps seem appropriate.

    To ensure people ARE tested they should be microchipped, like pets. This allows a record to be kept of virus checks. Also detectors in supermarkets can mean that those without microchips will not be allowed in.

    The microchips will also be used to record the compulsory vaccination.

    Lockdowns should persist until the country is clear of the virus.


    While not conclusive, it seems plausible that the ‘official’ numbers only represent a tiny fraction of those infected and that the actual death rate is a fraction of 1%.

    More antibody tests like the Stanford study should be carried out to get a true picture of the situation.

    Polling organisations should be able to provides lists of people giving a good cross section of society.

    If the results support the Stanford findings then we can take a more rational view, certainly that lockdowns are inappropriate, and that life can return to normal with the exception of those with high risks.

    We need surveys of those infected and not hospitalised. For example, my morbidity rating is 50%, but this is based on those needing hospital treatment. If many more people with my combination of risks did not have any problems then my risk factor is reduced. It is more of a question of ‘do I feel lucky?’


    It does seem like The Matrix, with two overlapping worlds. The difference is that blue pill is chaos and anarchy and the red pill is the return to a normal world.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 19 2020 #57563



    My estimate of 30% asymptomatic comes from the widespread testing in China where they concluded that 30% were asymptomatic CARRIERS.

    I believe the Stanford study suggested there were asymptomatic sufferers of the disease who were no longer carriers, which would not have shown up in the Chinese tests, leading to my conclusion that asymptomatic sufferers were higher than 30%..

    My ‘60%’ came from infection on a US Navy ship where 60% of those infected were asymptomatic. They would be younger on average than the general population so will not be truly representative, hence my ‘could be’..

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 19 2020 #57506


    My main problem is that we have absolutely no idea how serious this illness actually is.

    The ‘confirmed’ cases seem to be almost exclusively those who need hospital treatment. Those who have symptoms that do not require hospital treatment are excluded. Also it does seem there are a large number of people who have no symptoms, the lowest estimate seems to be 30% but it could be twice that.

    The use of antibody tests, like the Stanford study, should be replicated in all countries to check what the situation actually is. It may be the most sensible policy is for those with a high morbidity risk should self isolate but the rest of the economy should continue as normal.

    The lockdown policy is massively damaging and should only be used if truly justified. It seems that warm weather is unlikely to slow down infections, nor does having the disease guarantee immunity, so i could be lockdown forever with current thinking.

    My second problem is that there seems to be some effective cures based around hydroxychloroquine.

    I have seen no evidence that these are being officially tried in any country! Considering the alternative can be death it does seem surprising.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 18 2020 #57418



    Using antibody tests on a random sample the Stanford study concludes that probably actual infections are 50 to 80 times higher than the official figure.

    This ties in with the NHS figures from the UK where 1.7 million had reported having the virus. You can probably add another 30% to this, which seems to be typical of asymptomatic carriers. The Stanford study suggests a further class : asymptomatic sufferers who recover and are NOT carriers, they simply do not realise they have had it!. And the NHS figure is two weeks old.

    Why weren’t the NHS figures added to the official figures?

    The only ‘official’ figures are those that have been tested, and testing in most Western countries is extremely restricted. This increases the apparent death rate making it seem much more deadly than it actually is. The ‘official’ figure will exclude almost everyone who had it and recovered, possibly 98% or more!

    Whenever people ‘look’ they seem to ‘find’ : In NYC 15% of pregnancies had antibodies. In a German town 14% had antibodies. Most asymptomatic. All countries should carry out similar antibody random tests to find out the true situation.

    The Stanford study concludes that Covid-19’s mortality rate among infected people would be on par with, or even less, than the seasonal flu.

    Lockdowns are pointless.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 17 2020 #57412



    There seems to be two main treatments based around hydroxychloroquine.

    One in which hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are given for a period of days or weeks in the hope that the patient will be cured.

    The second uses hydroxychloroquine with zinc sulphate given when the patient is seriously ill. The patient is symptom free in about 12 hours! The ‘within 12 hours’ suggests only a single treatment is required. [According to Dr. Cardillo in the States]. I would certainly like to see further confirmation on this treatment.

    My thought about whether it would be effective against all viruses is the claim [by Cardillo] that the zinc inside the cell stops the replication of the virus. My question really is whether it stops ANY virus replicating in the cell. This would mean any mutations or varieties of virus are irrelevant.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 17 2020 #57367


    The hdroxycholoroquine and zinc treatment seems like a miracle cure. A single treatment giving a result in 12 hours or less, and only used if the patient has developed severe symptoms, and without the need for a hospital.

    Both components are cheap and plentiful. While hdroxycholoroquine has side effects, and interactions with other drugs and vitamins, this is minimised by the fact it is only a one-off treatment.

    You would think this would be world wide news!


    My first search on this turned up a few newspaper articles in publications I had never heard of. No MSM. Now any searches shows up some medical websites where the subject is discussed, there are references to a couple of other doctors who are trying it [successfully!] but no widespread use.

    It is almost as if people want the effects of the virus to be as bad as possible to justify a particular agenda!

    The key seems to be the zinc, with the hdroxycholoroquine just helping to get the zinc inside the cells. The zinc prevents the virus replicating in the cell.

    Any virus?

    Any animal?

    Is this a cure for ANY viral infection? A cure for the common flu? A cure for pig ebola? A cure for chicken flu?

    The mechanism doesn’t seem specific to the coronavirus.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 16 2020 #57298



    One UK newspaper said that about 2600 people per week were dying because they could not receive the non-COVID treatment normally carried on in UK hospitals.

    A new temporary hospital has been built in London, Nightingale, with 2,900 ICU beds specifically for COVID-19 treatment, plus 750 normal beds. Similar hospitals are being created in major cities using covered stadiums.

    I believe they are regarded as overflow beds. As I suspected Nighingale is almost empty.

    Here’s an idea. Why not move ALL the COVID-19 cases from normal hospitals to these centres and let the normal hospitals go back to treating non-COVID cases. Normal hospitals should not accept any COVID-19 cases.

    Many countries seem to be building temporary hospitals so it should be possible to segregate COVID-19 cases from other patients, or even just select specific normal hospitals as COVID only.


    I am still struck by the 1.6 million people reporting to a UK hotline that they had the virus.

    Antibody tests would be perfect for testing a significant sample of these people to get an idea of how many really had been infected, although this would not show asymptomatic carriers.

    I do not believe the UK is an exception so the antibody test could be used on random sampling of the population of any country to get a better idea of the real infection levels.

    How can the correct decisions be made without accurate information, or at least a good estimate?

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 15 2020 #57222



    The West has chosen to do minimal testing. For the most part it seems that testing is only on people who obviously have the virus and have developed severe symptoms, just a kind of confirmation.

    The effect is to make the death rate of the disease seem higher, Is this deliberate?

    1.6 million people contacted the UK’s NHS hotline and said that they feel they have the virus. This changes the situation dramatically. While some of those registering with the NHS are wrong, there would also be a lot of asymtomatic carriers.

    It would mean that only about 3% of those with the virus developed serious symptoms. [Do any other countries have similar hotlines, and what kind of figures are they getting]

    The average age of death in Italy is still 78, not 50 or 40.

    After reading about the apparently miracle cure using hydroxychloroquine with zinc sulphate when I hear about new deaths it feels like murder. It should be easy for medical staff to get the two components and it would be risk free to try them on patients rather than let them suffocate to death!

    Nothing to lose. It works or it doesn’t!

    If the deaths can be stopped or reduced to near zero then the panic goes away.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 14 2020 #57142



    If the virus can re-infect people, and if the spread of the virus is not affected by hotter temperatures, then it seems it will become endemic.

    While the lockdowns may slow the infection rate to allow health authorities to keep up, lockdowns can not last forever.

    The price of the lockdowns is very high, particularly in the US with 10% of their workforce are suddenly unemployed [17 million], massive numbers of businesses are threatened with bankruptcy, huge numbers of people are unable to receive normal healthcare [leading to thousands of deaths], and now threats to the food chain where supermarket shelves become empty and are not refilled.

    There will be carnage! There is a quote to the effect that civilsation dissolves into anarchy when there is no food in the supermarkets for three days.

    I feel we need to move to the Swedish idea where those at risk should self-isolate, but everyone else can carry on as normal.

    The alternative could be anarchy!

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 13 2020 #57079



    There seems to be two main treatments based around this drug.

    One in which hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are given for weeks in the hope that the patient will be cured. This [according to Didier Raoult of France] requires early detection of infection.

    The second uses hydroxychloroquine with zinc sulphate given when the patient is seriously ill. The patient is symptom free in about 12 hours! This suggests only a single treatment is required. [I have only seen one article on this treatment and I would like to see some confirmation] Note that the doctor giving this treatment says the important element is the zinc, the hydroxychloroquine just acts as a helper getting the zinc into the body’s cells.

    If this second treatment is as effective as it seems then the panic is OVER!

    It is just another flu. Most people will have flu and recover, while those who develop serious symptoms will just have this treatment, from a pharmacy. And it is CHEAP!

    No need to destroy the economy.

    No need for social distancing.

    Life can go back to normal.

    No need for horrendously expensive novel drugs.

    No need for extensive tracking!!!

    I would imagine most developing economies will adopt this approach – they have little choice. They don’t have the medical facilities, or the wealth to buy expensive treatments. Brazil is definitely going ‘all-in’ on using hydroxychloroquine. One report says the UK’s NHS is beginning to test the use of hydroxychloroquine.

    What will be interesting is the countries that don’t use this approach as it would suggest they have a particular agenda. There certainly seem to be some countries and individuals who seem hell-bent on preventing the use of this treatment.

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 12 2020 #57031



    From the article below :

    “Every patient I’ve prescribed it to has been very, very ill and within 8 to 12 hours, they were basically symptom-free,” Cardillo told Eyewitness News, adding “So clinically I am seeing a resolution.”

    Cardillo, CEO of Mend Urgent Care, says that the drug must be used in conjunction with Zinc, as the hdroxycholoroquine opens a ‘channel’ for the mineral to enter cells and prevent the virus from replicating.

    This is a very powerful statement. While it needs to be verified it gives a simple treatment which at least can be tried OUTSIDE of a hospital by ANYONE. There are some precautions needed, for example I take Metformin and this would need flushing from my system before the drug could be given.

    I read about how the elderly are being refused hospital admission, care homes where the staff are ill or self-isolating such that residents are being left dead in their beds.

    I read about hospitals being swamped, staff infected and dying. ALSO all the routine functions of hospitals such as surgery and treatment for other illnesses are being suspended, leading to further death and suffering.

    If the treatment above is remotely effective it should be given to those who start developing serious symptoms. It can be done in people’s homes and so help to stop the spread. It could mean hospitals actually being able to treat other people again.

    I do not know if this treatment just alleviates the symptoms and help the body fight off the infection, or whether it does actually stop the disease. Are people still infectious after treatment?

    Even so it does seem like a miracle cure with a drug which has been around for fifty years and whose side effects and problems are well known. It should be tried at every opportunity. While stocks are scarce due to hoarding fresh supplies from the manufacturers should be sufficient – it seems to be a ‘one-off’ treatment rather than ongoing, like its’ normal users. It would be criminal if this treatment was not used because of politics!

    One [sort of] amusing thought : If Trump haters refuse to take it because he mentioned it and die, while Trump supporters take it and live, well I am sure Trump would shed a few crocodile tears!

    in reply to: Debt Rattle April 11 2020 #56989



    The controversy over this drug is getting strange.

    A French scientist says it is effective if give as soon as the disease is diagnosed. Then all supplies in France disappear!

    An American doctor says it is very effective on seriously ill patients if given with a zinc supplement.

    Some say it would need weeks of clinical trials. No it doesn’t – the drug has been around for fifty years!

    It works or it doesn’t!

    One thought is that this is so big pharma can make money from novel vaccines and other treatments, which could be a long time coming. Or never : there is no cure for HIV yet.

    I personally get the feeling that Western governments are trying to make things as bad as possible – deliberately, not through incompetence. The lack of PPE even for medical staff, refusal to ramp up testing to massive levels, etc. Is this in order to justify the extreme monitoring schemes being proposed in various countries?

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